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 - newbie Registered: 02/26/01 Posts: 11 Last seen: 22 years, 7 months |
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President Bush's war planners have struggled to find a fitting code name for our latest military venture. But after a week of war, there's only one appropriate label for the nightmare that has transpired: Operation Infinite Disaster.
Leave aside, for the moment, the moral shortcomings and Orwellian implications of bombing starved people to "fight for freedom" or honor the dead of the September 11 tragedy. What's even more striking about the War Against ... Somebody is that, even on the Bush administration's own terms, the bombing of Afghanistan has thus far been a failure -- a series of tactical blunders guaranteed to make a bad situation much, much worse. A quick inventory of the week's events tell the story: BOMBING PEOPLE WITH FOOD: The first sign of trouble was news that Bush -- in a move to give the brutal bombings a humanitarian spin -- had opted to drop food supplies along with cluster bombs. This public relations stunt quickly backfired, however, when every major relief agency in the world derided the drops for 1) being insufficient (enough to feed about .5% of the starving population for a single day, provided the rations got to the intended "targets"); 2) containing food Afghan people never eat (hello, peanut butter?!); and 3) having the disadvantage of landing in fields strewn with land mines, adding injury to insult. HIGH-TECH STRIKES IN A LOW-TECH WORLD: Then came evidence that U.S. bombs are hitting worthless targets -- when they hit at all. This may surprise U.S. readers, who, much like during the Gulf War, have been treated to giddy media reports cooing over the Pentagon's high-tech "smart" weaponry: gee-whiz gadgets like satellite targeting which supposedly make military strikes "surgical" -- and blood-free. (Although, in 1991 the Pentagon admitted that under six percent of Gulf War weapons used "smart" technology -- and even among these brilliant bombs, fully 20% missed their mark.) The Pentagon says they've gotten better; time -- if not the media -- will tell. But what have these intelligent machines of destruction been hitting? A few terrorist training camps, which, as journalist Robert Fisk noted, our planes had "no difficulty spotting ... because, of course, most of them were built by the CIA when Mr. bin Laden and his men were the good guys." But overall, the Taliban is a low-tech army -- and bombing their outdated airstrips and archaic phone systems has had little impact on how they control their terrain. And technology is only as good as the fallible humans who use it, which leads to the next mistake: KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE: "Serious blunders by American warplanes may have killed at least 100 civilians in Afghanistan," according to eye-witness accounts obtained by The Observer of London and reported on Sunday, October 14. (U.S. newspapers have been slow to report evidence of innocent people dying.) These deaths -- in Karam village, 18 miles west of Jalalabad -- came after news of the four workers killed in a U.N. building devoted to clearing land mines. A total of 400 civilian deaths have been confirmed. Personal testimony from fleeing refugees suggest hundreds more. What has been the effect of these deaths, besides belying the notion that war can be waged without ending innocent lives? According to The Guardian of London, the Karam killings are straining ties between the U.S. and its shaky allies in the anti-terrorism coalition. And among the Arab and Muslim populace, the response is predictable: "Reports of between 50 and 150 deaths" the Guardian reports, have "provoked rage and grief throughout Afghanistan and throughout the Muslim world." Which brings us to what the U.S.-led strikes *have * succeeded in doing: IGNITING AN EXPLOSIVE BACKLASH: I'm not referring to the 30,000 protesters who marched in England against the U.S.-led bombing, the 70,000 who marched in India, the 70,000 who marched in Germany, or similar protests which have filled the streets in "friendly" turf like Italy, Greece, and our own cities. I'm also not referring to the boomerang response to U.S. bombing in the form of terrorist counter-attacks, which have plunged America into dread fear of powdery envelopes and exposed nuclear reactors. No, more troubling are the 20,000 students who took over the streets of Egypt yelling "U.S. go to hell!" The Jakarta Muslims threatening to kill U.S. tourists and embassy workers. The millions of Arab-Americans and Muslims who are raging -- violently -- against the U.S. in Jordan, South Africa, Iran, Bangladesh, Pakistan (brought to the brink of civil war) and Nigeria, where "hundreds" may be dead due to rioting. President Bush's reaction has instilled little confidence. When asked in a press conference last Friday for his response to the vitriolic hatred that has mushroomed around the globe, Bush could only mumble: "I'm amazed. I just can't believe it because I know how good we are" -- which, in the world's eyes, must bring profoundly new meaning to the word "naivet?." This disheartening string of missteps, feeding an upswell of moral outrage, led everyone's favorite war-watching website -- www.debka.com -- to post this headline over the weekend: "First Week of U.S. Offensive in Afghanistan is Inconclusive Militarily, Earthshaking Geo-Politically." And for what? To the Pentagon's dismay, Bin Laden hasn't been "flushed out." The Taliban isn't waving a white flag. Our supposed allies, the opium-running North Alliance, seem confused about whether or not they should take over the country. Amidst such chaos, the Bush camp has resorted to the time-tested tactic of creating a diversion, suggesting the blame for September 11 may lay elsewhere -- Iraq (surprise) being the favorite fall guy. This comes just weeks after every media mouthpiece instructed us that "ONLY the resources and skills of Osama bin Laden" and the "al-Quaeda network" could have been responsible. The U.S. may or may not be able to reverse its miserable military fortunes in Afghanistan. But the more dangerous consequences of the U.S. bombing campaign -- a world aroused into anger against American arrogance, in part the very reason for the September 11 tragedy -- will stay with us for a very long time. Chris Kromm is Director of the Institute for Southern Studies in Durham, North Carolina.
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madscientist journeyman Registered: 05/26/01 Posts: 110 Last seen: 22 years, 1 month |
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operation make things infinitely worse would be more appropriate. Or how about: operation help the terrorists get tthousands of new recruits?
-------------------- Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......
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 Swami Eggshell Walker  Registered: 01/18/00 Posts: 15,413 Loc: In the hen house |
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STOP IT! STOP IT!
Americans don't like to hear the truth. Let's just wave flags and spout patriotic verse. And remember, it is better to do SOMETHING, even if it is disatrous, than to do nothing at all. Those of us speaking for a course of action that will bring us long-term security instead of short-term emotional satisfaction are branded at best as *gak* Pacifists, and at worst, traitors. It is unpatriotic to NOT want more blood. Bush talks of the terrorists as perverted Muslims. And what do you call Christians who violate their Prime Directive? Bush could only mumble: "I'm amazed. I just can't believe it because I know how good we are" -- which, in the world's eyes, must bring profoundly new meaning to the word "naivet?." I was also astounded by his statement. Shows he has no clue about the rest of the world and should not be in charge. Kind of like Dad's statement about how in the Gulf War we were there to protect the Democracy of Kuwait. Ah, sorry King George, it is a MONARCHY. But hell, you can't expect him to know the political system of every country can you? World War III here we come. Start loading up on food, water and gold... --------------------  The proof is in the pudding.
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MrKurtz enthusiast Registered: 08/04/01 Posts: 303 Last seen: 22 years, 6 months |
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yeah, I knew the bombings were a horrible choice from the start. I, personally, think they should send in ground troops to assist the Northern Alliance and install a democratic government and actually help the people of Afghanistan so shit like this won't happen again. But then, I'm no expert on the policies of the Northern Alliance, they are fighting for a democratic government right?
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madscientist journeyman Registered: 05/26/01 Posts: 110 Last seen: 22 years, 1 month |
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Yup, if they just sent in ground troops it would be much better. It may mean casualties but then again, troops are unlikely to go 'off course' and blow up a school. This stand-off bombing is viewed as cowardice by many people in the real world.
-------------------- Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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No, in fact part(although not the majority) of the Taliban were originally part of the Mujahadeen which is the majority of Nothern Alliance leaders. They didn't install a democratic government when they came to power the first time and in fact there is documented proof that they have inflicted as many atrosicities on the people of Afghan as the Taliban has. If we sent in ground troops before an intense bombing campaign it would have been like the Soviet and British invasion all over, the destruction of a superior force. Plus the Northern Alliance does not make up the majority of Afghans and would most likely be seen as an puppet government by the people of Afghanistan.
-------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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What schools? Are you prepared for the draft if we're just going to send in ground troops?
-------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>>A total of 400 civilian deaths have been confirmed. Personal testimony from fleeing refugees suggest hundreds more.
Yes, but who killed these people? My favorite was the Afghan they were showing on tv that was claiming that they US shot his son on the first night of bombings. Yet it's a Taliban controled area in the middle of the country(ie. it was unaccessable by helicopters at the time)... funny... isn't it. Another thing that I've noticed is that I've not seen any women or for that matter bodies on tv. I often watch the Portuguese news, which has been far more graphic than US/Canadian/British news and have yet to see bodies or women(have to love satellites and a wife that speaks Portuguese). If we're really hitting and killing people that are just citizens, you'd think we'd see more women. I know what you're going to say, but what about the children? Well the funny thing is we know they've been recruiting children... who's to say they're not using them and that they're not in the these training camps? I mean do they seriously not think that the missiles they fire into the air at US planes don't come back down and blow up just the same? Do you not think this happens? Have all of these deaths been confirmed to be from explosions from US missiles? And a better question, what about the hundreds of innocents that have been dragged from their homes and slaughtered because they didn't agree with the Taliban or the Northern Alliance? The truth is in war, innocent people die. It sucks and no one wants it(well most people at least don't want it, either innocents killed or war for that matter). As for igniting an explosive backlash... I wouldn't worry about that too much, at least not until governments become involved. So long as the US keeps it's target Afghanistan, they will be supported by other governments and they will to a certain degree keep the citizenry "in line(look at Araffat for example)." And you have to wonder why this was written by some one versed in "southern studies" and not a former military leader... -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell Edited by MokshaMan (10/18/01 01:21 PM)
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madscientist journeyman Registered: 05/26/01 Posts: 110 Last seen: 22 years, 1 month |
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Although the figure of 400 is prolly exagerated (I would divide by five at least) the fact is missiles cannot be ordered not to kill civillians. They just cant seem to follow orders and have a nasty way of hitting the wrong thing, chinese embassies and refugee columns spring to mind. The US and UK have proffesional armies. Let them do what we tax payers pay them to do.
And Im not going to be drafted, Im trying out for selection in january so nyyaahh! -------------------- Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......
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Crobih rap-cord Registered: 11/03/98 Posts: 2,015 Loc: cave Last seen: 12 years, 30 days |
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It does not matter what number of killed civilians we are talking about.
It matters: a) It is uneffective war against real terrorism b) citisens of US are now in war not realising what is going to hit them soon c) citizens are blinded becaus goverment think they are going to win this war d) with these attacks only more innnocent people will die (from both sides I hve to notice) e) nobody looks how to solve this problem out f) the US and puppet goverments are the real terrorists right now, IMHO off course g) US citizens lost their right for NOTHING, cause the FBI wont be able to solve this shit anyhow h) its happening the real polarisation in the world, again for nothing! i) Bush, if he was clever guy ( oh I forgot he is not, and the dark force is holding him) he would politicaly substitute this war for REVENGE, with some less harm thing j) go on and on, but I do not see any good reason wich could come trough this "war" on terrorism k) even I live in far safer country then you guys do, I am really conserned about the our future!
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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"The aid workers said 10 civilians had been killed since the bombing began the night of October 7. The Taliban have claimed 70 civilians were killed in the city." from CNN plus several other news sites have been reporting the same thing. So divide by 7.(500/7=71-72, fewer than were killed in the Pentagon and a hell of a lot fewer than were killed in NYC) As for your signing up, good luck. I remember when the marines were calling me every other day... kind of glad I was never interested, although I'd have already finished my enlisted time by now had I signed up.
As for your claim that troops always follow orders and never kill citizens, I suggest you read up on both the Korean war and the Vietnam war(I'm sure there are other examples, but these are somewhat documented). Two wars where American troops killed and raped civilians, troops can have far more damaging effects than bombs. Bombs don't have opinions, aren't racist, don't rape, have no blood lust... -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 5 months |
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"operation make things infinitely worse would be more appropriate. Or how about: operation help the terrorists get tthousands of new recruits?"
Ain't it the truth... Watch Bush and his cronies try to set up a permanent military base in Afghanistan... Bet that will make Russia and the neighboring Countries feel safe.... I really like that bit about Iran volunteering to help out any of our downed pilots... yeah, right... I fly a lot. They now have National guard trops at all the airports carrying m-16s.. this week I had my carrying on bag searched at the Airport... went thru my shaving kit and took away my little itty bitty fingernail clippers.. No shit... Tell you what, I'd feel a hell of a lot safer if the US quit supporting corrupt dictatorships in the Middle East where millions of people are without education, health care and food just so we can get cheap oil to drive our SUVs than by taking all the fingernail clippers away from American travelers...
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Crobih rap-cord Registered: 11/03/98 Posts: 2,015 Loc: cave Last seen: 12 years, 30 days |
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Bush started this "war on teroorism" not just because of oil. US is the base for the richest clans of the world. They are usurers of the world, and they use american army in the same manner as mafia uses tough guys--terorists.
they have to teach everybody in the world that there is no play with them. That is the reason why the millions of americans could easily die if this grows to high tech bio warfare. Not just a fuel I tell you. And the worst thing is that those clans are not too affraid of bio terorists cause they are going to have the best antibiotics, the best vacines etc....so they guess they are above the problems. But I way again ,they are wrong. I hope american nation will realise this game , so they stop supporting the one who do not care about them at all.
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Lenore enthusiast Registered: 01/30/00 Posts: 366 |
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we're fucked unless we get into the streets and make our voices heard. The US government that is promoting this war is a sham! We didn't elect George W. the rigged polls in Florida, and the Aristocratic Supreme Court did. Just as our Democratic government only represents the minority of the Nation, so it also carries out the wishes of the minority in its bombings.
Operation Status Quo: Keep making the world a terribly dangerous and anti-political place to live. as for the deaths in Afghanistan there have been many, 400 is a reasonable number, you cannot just drop payloads on crowded cities and expect a bloodless outcome. The absence of proof of casulties may be due to the fact that very few cameras are in the country now. for those that don't know, this war is a war against Muslims, it is a war against the Arab race, the Anglo's objective is simple, revenge and the perpetuation of Power to make the world safe for economic growth in the north, retardation and exploitation in the south. by the way i am a whitey, it's just a little difficult to not recognize the the racial and religious divide this conflict has illuminated, almost the entire global south from Africa to Indonesia, and positively all muslims find the US-Brittish actions appallingly evil. and i do to. we should recognize the US led actions for what they are: STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>> we're fucked unless we get into the streets and make our voices heard
No one will listen if you're going out into the street and having a big ol' party/carnival type feel to the march. I mean if you look like you're having a good time, why should you be taken seriously... Of course, it's your right here in the US to do that, so go have a blast if you want... >> We didn't elect George W. the rigged polls in Florida Bullshit! What proof do you have? Even Jesse Jackson's Rainbow group hasn't been able to find any real proof of this, and trust me if they could they would! Our voting systems weren't made to have close elections... it sucks but it's true. >> the Aristocratic Supreme Court did Actually they wouldn't have finished the count by Dec 12, which is what the Florida state supreme court decided, ie you have to be finished recounting by Dec 12. That means Bush would've won... perhaps it should have gone to the Senate instead of how it was decided. That doesn't mean the Supreme court made the decision, it just means the numbers at the time(by Dec 12) were in favor of Bush. >> Just as our Democratic government only represents the minority of the Nation I'm curious about this... what minority? The wealthy? Oh, of course because they're the only ones that get to vote... how could I be so stupid. It's no ones fault except those that don't vote, btw over 50% voted, therefore over 50% are represented... possibly not by who you voted for, but you're represented because you voiced your opinion. I didn't vote for Clinton, and for the most part thought he was one of the most racist(didn't even have an equal rights bill in Arkansas until 2 years after he left) ass holes(thought he was all the and a bag of chips, a great actor though) ever to be voted President, but he was MY president because he was in that office and I voiced my opinion. >> 400 is a reasonable number Why is this being disputed by people that represent UNICEF and other aid agencies in the country? If it were as bad as that, they wouldn't be disputing it. Plus, they're claiming 500 now(and as I said earlier 70 where others are claiming 10). >> The absence of proof of casulties may be due to the fact that very few cameras are in the country now. What about all the cameras that they had in to Jallalabad(sp?), why wasn't there a picture of one dead... there were animals that were dead, why weren't there people? What did it just kill animals? That's a hell of a smart bomb. >> this war is a war against Muslims, it is a war against the Arab race, the Anglo's objective is simple, revenge and the perpetuation of Power You're argument is so clear now... I see the light... What are you, an idiot? If you're going to make outlandish claims, at least give some proof. I mean I understand more the whole idea that it's about oil since one of the biggest fields ever has been found in the area of Afghanistan(I believ in Afghan, Uzbek, and Tajik; field is said to make oil fields in Middle East look like puddles) and both the US and Russia both want to build a pipeline. >> little difficult to not recognize the the racial and religious divide this conflict has illuminated So what, just because we're not the same race or religion, we have not right to defend ourselves? Well then why do people that aren't the same race or religion allowed to attack us, don't the know that's not allowed... seriously though, does this sound valid to you? It doesn't to me. One of the big problems is that most religions aren't tied to politics, Islam is an exception to the rule. This is why we have a seperation of church and state because we want to try to allow the greatest amount of freedom to its people. All this has done is illuminate the fact that many people are upset at the US for having greater wealth than they do, which is not really the fault of the US. If they should be pissed at anyone, it should be Europe since they absolutely raped most of the people's land, beliefs, cultures, resources, etc. The US was like many of these nations that dislike us, a colony of Europe. Just happened that the US got out from their control earlier. >> we should recognize the US led actions for what they are: STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM Umm, sure... had you said this about America helping the Columbians... I might agree, you didn't... had you mentioned the continual assitance of weapons to Israel... I might agree, you didn't(I'm sure there are more examples that you could give(the still continueing embargo on Cuba, allowing anti-Castro Cuban groups to continue operations in Florida, etc.)); you indicated this specific conflict, which is an attempt by the US to protect its citizens(and has been accepted by almost every governement(the people in the know) in the world). Simply because an ill informed citizenry from around the world are upset with the US, does not mean they fully understand or know what's going on. State sponsored terrorism indicates that the US would be targeting citizens... if the US wanted to target citizens we'd just flatten the country with A or H bombs. We're specifically trying not to target citizens, but the unfortunate truth of war is innocent people die. BTW if you think Gore would be taking any different action than Bush, you're probably right. He would've had to have responded more forcefully, sooner or risk a backlash by the Republicans in Congress. This would have probably resulted in more violence sooner in these Islamic nations against the US. And probably less support around the world than we currently "enjoy." -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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Crobih rap-cord Registered: 11/03/98 Posts: 2,015 Loc: cave Last seen: 12 years, 30 days |
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you are prick
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 5 months |
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"That doesn't mean the Supreme court made the decision, it just means the numbers at the time(by Dec 12) were in favor of Bush. "
Horse shit, there was plenty of time to count the votes. Bush ran to the USSC and got them to stop it. The Republican bench deliberately thru up road blocks to ensure that there would be delays and the count couldn't be done. The Florida elections was stacked by GOP thugs who charged the counting place and threatened the counters. A former FBI guy authorized GOP precincts to break the law for thousands of absentee voters, the State law allowing for a hand count of discarded votes was verturned, Black voters were discriminated against by a GOP circulated inaccurate list of 'felons', the punch ballot machines were predominantly in poor districts. GW's a liar, dummy and a cheat and worst of all a shill and puppet for selfish capitalist pigs with little heart. The GOP may have gathered more millions than any time in history but a lot of people know that we have an illigitimate President. What's worse is that far too many people just figure every plitician is a cheat and a liar. Of course Republicans go around telling them this... then they set out to prove it. .
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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Go back and review the decision given by the Florida State Supreme Court, they even said that the absentee ballots should have been accepted. And they gave the date Dec 12. Go review the standard that was used and the count that continued after the Dec 12th date. You know what my favorite part about this is? Bush still won, using the standard endorsed by Gore. If your issue is that they didn't finish the count because of the supreme court's decision... hard to argue that they didn't say the count should stop, doesn't mean Bush did anything such as steal the election.
>> the punch ballot machines were predominantly in poor districts Districts that were controled and run by Democrats... why the hell would Democrats help Bush? >> W's a liar, dummy and a cheat Gore's and W's grades were nearly identical in graduate school... so Gore must be just as dumb, probably dumber since W was also using hard drugs and was an alcoholic. Of course Bush's circulium was easier since he was studying business and Gore was studying law, but just the same their grades were remarkably similiar. As far as being a liar... probably, pretty much all politicians are. Cheat? No, you're thinking of Gore, I mean wasn't he the one who hired Daly(sp?)? Wasn't it Daly's grandfather that went to prison for voter fraud, for stuffing the ballot box(hasn't it also been suggested that Daly did this too, but couldn't be proven)? Oh, yeah he was... like father like son(or like grandfather like grandson). I mean Gore couldn't even win on the best economy ever enjoyed by the US, Gore lost the election for himself plain and simple. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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GabbaDj BTH   Registered: 04/08/01 Posts: 19,691 Loc: By The Lake |
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when we put the number of "civilians" killed I put the number into the thousands...
Remember that just because a bomb hits its intended target dont mean that the place is filled with military personel... More than half of the strategic bomb drops were on targets with civilian employees... The airports alone had civilans travelers and workers. Then theirs the whearehouses that "we believe" are being used to store military supplys and the pharmacutical companies, the manufacturing plants, the telecomunications centers all of which have lots of civilian employees in them... In fact the only places we have hit doing damage to their military has been actual military bases and empty terrorist training camps. But that has been only a small part of the bombings. GabbaDj
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Lenore enthusiast Registered: 01/30/00 Posts: 366 |
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MokshaMan or whatever
i find it ammusing that you found my post so inflamitory. reading your responce i could only imagine your furiously mad typing out of a responce. anyway, lets not talk about who won the election, or how as we will never agree. however your view of a pluralist USA controlled by the populace is false. Your view of the world is a false one bred in a long tradition of power over ideas and discourse. America has never been a plural sociey no matter what the currency says "E pluribus Unim" its false. The 50%+ that voted in the last election and any other are insignificant in the choice of political power and direction. How can a 2 party system adaquitley represent a nation of infinate diversity. The public acts merely as a rubber stamp, the election is effectively over once the GOP and Dems have selected their cantidates, unless a 3rd party funded by a multibillionaire comes along. The public simply ratifies decisions made well in advance by those that run this nation, the rich. Latin America, Indonesia, Iraq, Ethiopia, all are examples of US terrorism, look at what happened in the Phillipines during the Spanish American war, absolute Terror. I will not typify terror, demarcate between good(american) terror and bad islamic terror, it is all a horrible state that the greedy leaders of our societies have led us into. My comments concerning the racial and religious divide were meant only as an observation, not a motive of hatred or war, although it commonly is. and don't call me an idiot, i respect your opinions however misled and harmful i might feel them to be.
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MrKurtz enthusiast Registered: 08/04/01 Posts: 303 Last seen: 22 years, 6 months |
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Well, I think what gets me about the election is that Gore had more votes plain and simple, and only lost because of the archaic electoral college system. It has no place whatsoever in the modern world. Also, how can the election be considered fair when halfway through they changed Florida from Gore to Bush? Most people waiting in line to vote for Gore left when they first heard the news. Its also a bit suspicious that such a screw up would happen in the one state where Bushes brother is governer. Just alot of bad shit to happen in an election to call it losing plain and simple.
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>> MokshaMan or whatever
If you really feel you need to call me something, I'm just another Bob. >> i find it ammusing that you found my post so inflamitory. reading your responce i could only imagine your furiously mad typing out of a responce. I don't really get angry(haven't since I learned to control my temper years ago), and certainly would not get angry about something as silly as a discussion on a bulletin board. Glad you think you're that important(must be a great imagination)... As far as inflamatory, I found more holes in your statements than most advertising which isn't exactly the company I'd want to find myself amongst. Vague generalizations(even though I will ocassionally to my own personal disgust use them) tend to rub me the wrong way though. >> The public simply ratifies decisions made well in advance by those that run this nation, the rich. You're full of it. Had you said run by lagre multi-national businesses(which have vastly more wealth than "the rich" and far greater interest in the "business of government," I mean seriously who do you think most of the laws passed by government are directed at?), I might be inclined to believe this. The fact remains that even though it currently is a two party system, there is nothing that could or should prevent the creation of other parties than a lack of capital. Now if the masses were really that dissatisfied, one would think that such capital would be easily accessable as it is to bin Laden and his cohorts. Having only 2 parties certainly is a flaw and I think the entire party system should be removed, but those in power will never do such since that's how they got elected. Of course if the other 49% had showed up and written in someone else other than the two canidates from the two parties... that person should have won(never know about the electores). The fact is that if you want to be heard... you can be heard. That and the majority of people in the US do not want to think about such things as government, they just want to get fat and happy. Yes, some of those could be considered examples of US "terrorism"(don't know anything about Phillipines in Spanish/American war, but war is hell always has been always will be). Although I'd hardly consider Iraq to be amongst them since it's a UN embargo on Iraq and not a US embargo. L:>>> this war is a war against Muslims, it is a war against the Arab race, the Anglo's objective is simple, revenge and the perpetuation of Power M:>> You're argument is so clear now... I see the light... What are you, an idiot? If you're going to make outlandish claims, at least give some proof. L:> and don't call me an idiot, i respect your opinions It's not Arabs in Afghanistan, country isn't even located on the Arabian pennisula(figured I'd let that one pass, but...). And where did I say, you are an idiot? I asked you a question based on the fact that you were making outlandish, unfounded claims with no proof(a question you seemed to have answered in the negative)... I've still yet to see proof of this claim you(and others) make that is a "racist war." In fact I've yet to see any proof, because it's one race fighting against another it's racist? So if I(a white guy) mug a black guy, is this a racist crime? Let's say he was driving a lexus, had a rolex, and appeared to have lots of money. This certainly wouldn't be a racist crime. Now a country's government has allowed a group to exist and thrive that has(even if not in the current situation, certainly in the past) aimed at the US(not just the government(if they'd just attacked military and government installations, I'd be far less horrified by their action), but the citizens as well) it just happens that they're not the race the majority in the US are(and there won't be a majority soon). This does not make this a racist war, if you show me some form of documentation that they are only targeting Afghanistan because we hate the major group in the country, I'll give it a look. Of course since the majority of Afghans are the same as the majority of Pakistan and we're not attacking them, I tend to think your claim is unfounded. I generally tend to respect people's opinions, but outlandish and unfounded claims tends to dull that respect. >> My comments concerning the racial and religious divide were meant only as an observation, not a motive of hatred or war, although it commonly is. And I did read this just in case you think I didn't, still seems you're implying it's a "racist" war to me, esp considering the whole "revenge and perpetuation of Power" and "it commonly is" statements. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>> Gore had more votes plain and simple, and only lost because of the archaic electoral college system
The problem with just going by the popular vote is that major population areas would have far too much sway in deciding what the entire country wants. This would mean that all you had to do was win the hearts of those people in the cities and not worry about the people in "middle America." I agree that some parts of the electoral college are antiquated and need to be improved(such as if you win a state you get all the electoral votes). If you look at where most of the problems occured, it was in Democratically controlled sections of the state. Now, how was Jeb getting Democrats to help him? I mean the control of elections in Florida(and the rest of the US) is a local thing. I agree that we will never really know who with actual certainty won Florida. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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MrKurtz enthusiast Registered: 08/04/01 Posts: 303 Last seen: 22 years, 6 months |
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"The problem with just going by the popular vote is that major population areas would have far too much sway in deciding what the entire country wants. "
Well, the way it is now, the states with large populations are the only ones that matter. No one really gives a fuck what people from Massachusettes, Alaska, or Rhode Island think. Either system we use, people are gonna try to reach out to areas with the highest populations. But, the idea that if you were to win by 1 vote you get just as many "points" as winning by 5 million, it just doesn't make sense.
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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Yes but right now, you at least have to win some states in middle america, if you did it purely by a popular vote, all you'd have to do is win the two coasts. If you ask me each presidential voting district should be 1 electoral vote and whoever has the most votes in the state should get the final vote from each state. I mean if they'd have done it that way, each area would matter almost as much as any other area. To change it to simply a popular vote, you'd have to change the constitution and that's not going to happen.
-------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 5 months |
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Votes be damned... he won Florida and the Republican appointed USSC stole the election.
Our Nation becmes more racially divided every day. GOPers think this is healthy and encourage it. If 95% of Blacks vote for the Dems and they are 13% of the population, that means the Dems are over 25% Black. GOPers never miss a chance to hint at this down South. That's why you hear Jesse Jacksons name so much.. they get votes by stirring that race hate, Of course HIllary stirs the juices as well. Most of these dumb ass White guys are as scared of women as they are of Blacks.
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Lenore enthusiast Registered: 01/30/00 Posts: 366 |
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The public simply ratifies decisions made well in advance by those that run this nation, the rich.
You're full of it. Had you said run by lagre multi-national businesses(which have vastly more wealth than "the rich" and far greater interest in the "business of government," I mean seriously who do you think most of the laws passed by government are directed at?), hmm.... well excuse my semantic errors Afghani's are not Arabs, I should have said Muslims. Hardly a point which refutes my observation, in fact it seems to make it a stronger case, Christians v. Muslims And as for Multinational Corporations, are they not controlled by very rich individuals? Rich people, those who sit on the Boards and in the chairs of CEO's, so pardon my French, but far from making unsubstantiated claims as you say I have, you have only been able to discredit through insignificant arguments such as Afghanis are not Arabs, or Corporations not the rich. You have not disproved any point I have made.
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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And you have yet to prove that this is a crusade(war on Muslims by Christians)... so who's to be taken more seriously? Some one who's pointed out that we're supporting some Muslims and not others or someone who's claiming it's a "racist" war with no proof? I'd say the fact that we're supporting the Northern Alliance(even if they are murdering, raping bastards) and being supported by Pakistan's General Musharaf(sp?) who are Muslims makes your argument flawed. If there were no Muslims on our side, I'd be inclined to take you more seriously.
As far as multinational corps being run by "the rich," people in these corps can be changed. Boards can be dissolved, CEOs are fired all the time, major stock holders... well that's a different matter. I can't say that there are no wealthy people that are in charge of major corp(look at Bill Gates), but to blatently claim that there's some mysterious group of "rich" that are plotting the course of all people is foolish, or do you think the Rothchilds control everything? -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell Edited by MokshaMan (10/25/01 02:21 AM)
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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Sometimes it's just best to smile, nod, and walk away since you won't change either my mind or my understanding of what happened this past election.
I think Jesse Jackson has done some wonderful things(helping to bridge the gap and bring soldiers home), but at the same time he's a hipocrite(he's proved this)... and he stirs up as much racial tension as any GOPer about certain groups(ie GOP). Certainly a lot better than listening to Farrakan(sp?) though, so I guess I shouldn't complain. As far as Hillary goes, anyone that moves to a state simply to get voted into office... well let's just say I wouldn't trust that person. Of course I don't trust anyone that stays married because it is better to do so politically. That's all I'm going to say about Hillary as well. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell Edited by MokshaMan (10/25/01 02:24 AM)
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 5 months |
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"As far as Hillary goes, anyone that moves to a state simply to get voted into office... well let's just say I wouldn't trust that person. Of course I don't trust anyone that stays married because it is better to do so politically. That's all I'm going to say about Hillary as well."
Well, Moksha, guess you'd have to write off my Senator (mcCain) as he dumped his wife and moved to AZ after he got back form VN. Married the daughter of as a rich cat (liquor distributor) and ran for political office. And as far as Hillary goes. you don't know why she's still married to Bill. How many times you been married? Got any kids? Split the family up? Talk is cheap... you just let your prejudices show. You don't know this woman. Personally, I look at how people vote - if they support legislation I like, I vote for them... their personal life (as displayed in the media) isn't of much concern to me. We don't really know these folks and anyone can be made to look bad. Most of that 'character' bullshit is just that - Bullshit. Look at Sen Kerrey - Medal of Honor winner - then it turns out he murdered unarmed women and children and clained it was VietCong so he got a Bronze Star. Look at OJ Simpson, '' great movie and sports hero, the we find out he was a wife beater and eventually a murderer. Look at Newt Gingrich... great GOP moral Icon who dumps his wife while she is in the hospital with cancer and then is having an affair with his secretary while condemning Clinton. Look at GOP Rep Livingston who was to be Speaker and had to resign when Larry Flynt threatened to release the audio tapes showing he was into S&M and having an affair.. And on and ON -- so it goes/// I suggest you focus on how these folks vote when it comes to helping the sick, needy children and others... rather than spouting off pious crap you get from places like the Rush Limbaugh show...
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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> How many times you been married?
Just the once... no kids yet, but we want to wait until we're established before we have kids... not that it really matters to this discussion. You're 100% right, I don't know her; however, I do know the policy she set forward for a national health care coverage and I couldn't stand it. For the record, I don't care that much for McCain either. Can't stand Ginrich, thought it was horrible that he was put in charge. Don't know enough about Kerry or Livingstone to comment. I think that it's disgusting that the US voted in a draft dodger over a wounded war hero, you want a true and good representation of the GOP look no further than Bob Dole. There are a lot of people on both sides of the aisle that I don't believe disserve to be representing the people, and I'm allowed to this opinion. Character matters to a certain degree to me, it's not the most important thing I'll admit. Of course, they don't always vote like they say they will on(before) election day anyhow. And the moving into a state simply because you think you can get voted in there was never really answered... I don't know why you included while quoting me. I still say that it's a strange reason(to get voted into office) to move some where, especially when you're not even from the same region. I mean how does she represent the north, muchless New York(not just the city, but the entire state)? Because she lived near there when she went to college? As for spouting off shit from Rush Limbaugh, I've listened to the man a couple times when I was much younger... I think for the most part he's a fat blathering idiot. Don't represent me if you don't fucking know me, or do you not take your own advice? As for helping the sick and needy, I donate money/food(not much I'm a college student, but what I can) and generally work a couple weeks in the summer for Habitat. That's more than I can say for most people I know. If I lived closer to a large city, I'd try to volunteer my time to soup kitchens and homeless shelters, but I don't so I can't. It is my opinion that this is not something that the federal government should be taking care of, but should be a community wide effort to help(possibly financial help from Federal gov, but not decided by Federal gov.). In my opinion that just represents more big federal government and considering after the civil war(and during) it usurped much power that does not rightly belong to it, well... I think you can see my opinion on this. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 5 months |
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Pretty good post. Sorry about that Limbaugh crack. and if the people of New York believe Hillary would be a better Senator than some life long guy who is paid for by big inetrests they have all the right to do so. I'm just glad Guliani didn't run against her. Of course his sex life isn't all that pure now is it.
And you don't know squat about Bob Dole... Anyhow, I don't have trouble with a war protester if he is protesting a war where his Country is on the wrong side. Would that more Germans had protested against the Nazis. I'm not out to trash Bob Dole but since you bring him up as some sort of good guy here's some facts for you - A suburban Washington woman confirmed a report on October 24th 1976 that she was Bob Dole?s mistress for 4 years starting in 1968. They would meet for secret trysts while he was still married. Merideth Roberts (63, and a native Australian)was a secretary at George Washington University at the time. Bob Dole did not deny the affair. Now let?s see, she must have been 35 at the time and old Dole must of been about 45. Bet his daughter was around 10 or 11? Of course he eventually dumped his wife and daughter and got divorced.... funny, Clinton's this big bad guy because he hasn't left his wife and fooled around. Dole does it, dumps his wife and no one says a thing. The press pretty much gave him a free ride. More stuff,,,Bob Dole said in July 1982 ? When the political action committees give money, they expect something in return other than good government? Well, let?s look at what some of they got. Bob Dole has received over $1 million dollars from the Gallo Winery concern. $381,000 directly to his campaign and $790,000 to the Dole Foundation. They got: passage of the generation-skipping transfer legislation which is estimated to have saved them over $104 million dollars in inheritance taxes; Government subsidies of over $23.8 million as part of the Market Promotion Program (goal was to encourage exports - some call it corporate welfare); Federal ruling allowing them to change the ?bulk processing? label on their champagne to the ?Charmat Method?; the elimination of any ?sin taxes? in his health care proposal (he hinted he might consider them, got $90,000 to his leadership PAC & $100,000 to his Better America Foundation and they disappeared). Bob Dole has received over $200,000 from the Archer Daniels Midland Corp to his leadership PAC and think tank and more than $275,000 to the Dole Foundation. The Red Cross got $500,000 when Elizabeth took over and Dole has received countless Airplane rides. During 1993 -1994 alone he took more than a trip a month on ADM aircraft. This is also the guy who helped with the Florida Condo bought for $150,000 and valued at $300,000. They got: His support of the ethanol program which has saved ADM over $475 million in tax benefits. They also have received over $424 million in direct subsidies as part of the Export Enhancement Program , wheat to Russia and other deals (Dole is senior member on the Agriculture Committee); Dozens of other tax loopholes associated with corn sweeteners, peanut price supports and other goodies. Bob Dole received over $240,000 in his campaigns and over $225,000 for his foundations from the Koch Brothers. Oil company billionaires. He got $150.000 in contributions in 1995 at a $1000 a plate party hosted by the Kochs on his 72nd birthday. They got: an estimated $54 million dollar civil lawsuit by the EPA dropped after Dole introduced the Comprehensive Regulatory Reform Act of 1995. They reportedly spilled 2.3 million gallons of oil in over 300 incidents in six states. This lawsuit was considered one of the largest cases ever brought by the EPA for non-compliance with the Clean Water Act. BTW the bill was drafted for Dole by the CSE (Citizens for a Sound Ecology) an organization to which the Kochs have donated millions and David Koch was once President of! I must go on or I?d tell you more...In 1989 the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs said Koch had stolen $10 million in oil from Indian Land and $21 million from other areas. (FBI officials conducted probe). Probe was terminated because of the ?Koch Family?s political connections?. (guess who?) I?ll stop here. So much for this guys great Character. No I'll take Bill Clinton and his sleazy sex morals... at least he wasn't paying off corporate interests in order to pad his checking account.So go ahead and be a sucker and vote based on some news articles about character...I say we would be better served if people voted for the issues... Here's what I heard and believe: Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events and large minds discuss issues... You notice it is most always Republicans who want to discuss people and their 'Character'. Edited by ElPrimo (10/27/01 10:34 AM)
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>> if the people of New York believe Hillary would be a better Senator than some life long guy who is paid for by big inetrests they have all the right to do so
This is true, doesn't mean I understand it(or that they were given much of a choice)... of course I'd rather have someone homegrown than moved in, especially if it was a carpet bagger... >> Some folks say he got wounded running away. Well when I met him, that's not the story I got but what does he know... >> Bob Dole said in July 1982 ? When the political action committees give money, they expect something in return other than good government? So? That's what all special interest groups expect, even the ones that support the Democrats(or do you not believe special interests give to Democrats?). Quid pro quo; I scratch your back, you scratch mine; this has been around forever I'll bet and will continue to be around. If you want to get rid of this, you'll have to convince Congress and the President to sign it into law, not to mention the 1st Amendment questions that would be brought up. I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is. >>$790,000 to the Dole Foundation. AND more than $275,000 to the Dole Foundation. AND over $225,000 for his foundations "The Dole Foundation for the Employment of People with Disabilities, established by Senator Robert J. Dole, provides grant funds to non-profit, 501(c)3 organizations conducting innovative or best practices employment programs promoting the employment of people with disabilities." from a 1997 Press Release by The Dole Foundation for the Employment of People with Disabilities How awful that he would force people to contribute. I mean can you believe it, helping people with disabilities. What a bastard! I mean, that money should be going to killing babies or helping kids get hooked on crack... Not to mention the fact that he made businesses give money to the Red Cross, what a jerk. Can't believe I've gone to see him give speeches thrice. >>You notice it is most always Republicans who want to discuss people and their 'Character' I said it was an issue, I didn't say it was the only issue, please reread my last post. I also never said Dole was perfect, but I certainly would take him over a man that's been accused of murder(at least 35 mysterious deaths in Arkansas related to Clinton, Waco(or was that all Reno's fault?), allowing Rwanda(use to know someone there... not anymore), bombing of Sudan, the "drug war" in Columbia where we're supporting paramilitaries slaughtering innocents and spraying inhabitated areas with poison) and accepting money from foreign interests(selling national secrets to China). Should I do a similiar list of dirty laundry for Clinton and then we can compare who's is bigger(or worse)? I don't think this would accomplish anything. BTW if you look back up at the rest of my posts I did talk about issues dealing with the current conflict taking place in Afghanistan. Just found this quote, thought you'd enjoy it: "'We're not inflicting pain on these fuckers,' Clinton said, softly at first. 'When people kill us, they should be killed in greater numbers.' Then, with his face reddening, his voice rising, and his fist pounding his thigh, he leaned into Tony [Lake], as if it was his fault. 'I believe in killing people who try to hurt you. And I can't believe we're being pushed around by these two-bit pricks'" -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell Edited by MokshaMan (10/27/01 02:02 AM)
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 5 months |
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Sorry you saw that part about Dole before I could delete it,, I don't think it is appropriate to repeat it and regret doing so. The only thing good I can say about Bob Dole is that I prefer him a hundred times over the self rightious, neo-nazis running the GOP these days.
Anyway, after this nonsense "take him over a man that's been accused of murder (at least 35 mysterious deaths in Arkansas related to Clinton", I can see we're not going to get anywhere. I never said Clinton was a paragon of virtue... but you're being ridiculous here. It's money that runs this world, follow the money trail and you can find most anything. Most of the big money is against Clinton and it isn't because of his sex life. But Clinton, while better than just about any GOPer is too conservative for me. From my point of view, the conservatives are the cause of most of our problems. Those in power during the 60's murdered our President John Kennedy and covered it up. Tried to claim it was a socialist who did it.. LMAO.. 6 weeks before he was murdered, JFK issued an Executive order pulling all troops out of Vietnam. 4 days after he was murdered and on his very first day in office, LBJ rescinded it. Kennedy fired both the head of the CIA and his second in command. Apparently he paid dearly for this. The phony ass Warren commision was composed of all Republicans except for 2 Southern conservative Democrats. The current conservative tactic is to pit Black against White against Mexican. Religious against against freedom thinkers. Straights against gays. Our 2 Party system is going to get pretty ugly as the GOPers continue to represent more and more Whites (afraid the minorities are trying to take their money due to GOPer propaganda) against a Dem Party composed of Minorities and liberals, gays etc. who want a fair wage, education and health care. We are adapting the South American system, where wealthy families will live in gated communities and be protected from the poor by troops and secret police. Every day the conservatives take away more American freedoms and rights so they can put this in place. They use all kinds of reasons for doing so... today it is to 'get terrorists'. Go ahead, tell yourself that the GOP will attract minorities... that Blacks only vote Dem because they are dumb and hoodwinked. It's a lie. They vote Dem because the GOP institutes policies that hurt them as a people... Policies that hurt all poor people... and minorities are disproportionately poor. And as GOP policies create a bigger and bigger gap betwwen the haves and have nots, as they destroy the middlle class (built by socialist principles like free education) there will be more and more poor.. Then there will be even more of an effort not to count their votes. George Bush vetoed the moter voter bill 2 times when he was President. I know the GOp doesn't want to count the votes of the poor. I know that they use their money to sway voters with race hate and other items. That they have many times the money of poor people to advertise and sway the electorate. They could never win on the issues. But it won't work forever... there will just be too many poor.... just as Black people voted Marion Berry back into office and cheered OJs acquittal.. they will ignore the 'machine'... they won't trust anything you say... even when you might be telling the truth.. It will be a long struggle... having gone on for centuries and will continue to go on for many years after we are gone. But I know what side I'm on and I suppose you know which side you are on. But I don't take it too personal.. I think we are all pretty much bit players in a grand scheme, programmed to play out certain roles... cheers
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