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 MrKurtz enthusiast Registered: 08/04/01 Posts: 303 Last seen: 22 years, 1 month |
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Well, I think what gets me about the election is that Gore had more votes plain and simple, and only lost because of the archaic electoral college system. It has no place whatsoever in the modern world. Also, how can the election be considered fair when halfway through they changed Florida from Gore to Bush? Most people waiting in line to vote for Gore left when they first heard the news. Its also a bit suspicious that such a screw up would happen in the one state where Bushes brother is governer. Just alot of bad shit to happen in an election to call it losing plain and simple.
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 MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>> MokshaMan or whatever
If you really feel you need to call me something, I'm just another Bob. >> i find it ammusing that you found my post so inflamitory. reading your responce i could only imagine your furiously mad typing out of a responce. I don't really get angry(haven't since I learned to control my temper years ago), and certainly would not get angry about something as silly as a discussion on a bulletin board. Glad you think you're that important(must be a great imagination)... As far as inflamatory, I found more holes in your statements than most advertising which isn't exactly the company I'd want to find myself amongst. Vague generalizations(even though I will ocassionally to my own personal disgust use them) tend to rub me the wrong way though. >> The public simply ratifies decisions made well in advance by those that run this nation, the rich. You're full of it. Had you said run by lagre multi-national businesses(which have vastly more wealth than "the rich" and far greater interest in the "business of government," I mean seriously who do you think most of the laws passed by government are directed at?), I might be inclined to believe this. The fact remains that even though it currently is a two party system, there is nothing that could or should prevent the creation of other parties than a lack of capital. Now if the masses were really that dissatisfied, one would think that such capital would be easily accessable as it is to bin Laden and his cohorts. Having only 2 parties certainly is a flaw and I think the entire party system should be removed, but those in power will never do such since that's how they got elected. Of course if the other 49% had showed up and written in someone else other than the two canidates from the two parties... that person should have won(never know about the electores). The fact is that if you want to be heard... you can be heard. That and the majority of people in the US do not want to think about such things as government, they just want to get fat and happy. Yes, some of those could be considered examples of US "terrorism"(don't know anything about Phillipines in Spanish/American war, but war is hell always has been always will be). Although I'd hardly consider Iraq to be amongst them since it's a UN embargo on Iraq and not a US embargo. L:>>> this war is a war against Muslims, it is a war against the Arab race, the Anglo's objective is simple, revenge and the perpetuation of Power M:>> You're argument is so clear now... I see the light... What are you, an idiot? If you're going to make outlandish claims, at least give some proof. L:> and don't call me an idiot, i respect your opinions It's not Arabs in Afghanistan, country isn't even located on the Arabian pennisula(figured I'd let that one pass, but...). And where did I say, you are an idiot? I asked you a question based on the fact that you were making outlandish, unfounded claims with no proof(a question you seemed to have answered in the negative)... I've still yet to see proof of this claim you(and others) make that is a "racist war." In fact I've yet to see any proof, because it's one race fighting against another it's racist? So if I(a white guy) mug a black guy, is this a racist crime? Let's say he was driving a lexus, had a rolex, and appeared to have lots of money. This certainly wouldn't be a racist crime. Now a country's government has allowed a group to exist and thrive that has(even if not in the current situation, certainly in the past) aimed at the US(not just the government(if they'd just attacked military and government installations, I'd be far less horrified by their action), but the citizens as well) it just happens that they're not the race the majority in the US are(and there won't be a majority soon). This does not make this a racist war, if you show me some form of documentation that they are only targeting Afghanistan because we hate the major group in the country, I'll give it a look. Of course since the majority of Afghans are the same as the majority of Pakistan and we're not attacking them, I tend to think your claim is unfounded. I generally tend to respect people's opinions, but outlandish and unfounded claims tends to dull that respect. >> My comments concerning the racial and religious divide were meant only as an observation, not a motive of hatred or war, although it commonly is. And I did read this just in case you think I didn't, still seems you're implying it's a "racist" war to me, esp considering the whole "revenge and perpetuation of Power" and "it commonly is" statements. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>> Gore had more votes plain and simple, and only lost because of the archaic electoral college system
The problem with just going by the popular vote is that major population areas would have far too much sway in deciding what the entire country wants. This would mean that all you had to do was win the hearts of those people in the cities and not worry about the people in "middle America." I agree that some parts of the electoral college are antiquated and need to be improved(such as if you win a state you get all the electoral votes). If you look at where most of the problems occured, it was in Democratically controlled sections of the state. Now, how was Jeb getting Democrats to help him? I mean the control of elections in Florida(and the rest of the US) is a local thing. I agree that we will never really know who with actual certainty won Florida. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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MrKurtz enthusiast Registered: 08/04/01 Posts: 303 Last seen: 22 years, 1 month |
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"The problem with just going by the popular vote is that major population areas would have far too much sway in deciding what the entire country wants. "
Well, the way it is now, the states with large populations are the only ones that matter. No one really gives a fuck what people from Massachusettes, Alaska, or Rhode Island think. Either system we use, people are gonna try to reach out to areas with the highest populations. But, the idea that if you were to win by 1 vote you get just as many "points" as winning by 5 million, it just doesn't make sense.
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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Yes but right now, you at least have to win some states in middle america, if you did it purely by a popular vote, all you'd have to do is win the two coasts. If you ask me each presidential voting district should be 1 electoral vote and whoever has the most votes in the state should get the final vote from each state. I mean if they'd have done it that way, each area would matter almost as much as any other area. To change it to simply a popular vote, you'd have to change the constitution and that's not going to happen.
-------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 7 days |
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Votes be damned... he won Florida and the Republican appointed USSC stole the election.
Our Nation becmes more racially divided every day. GOPers think this is healthy and encourage it. If 95% of Blacks vote for the Dems and they are 13% of the population, that means the Dems are over 25% Black. GOPers never miss a chance to hint at this down South. That's why you hear Jesse Jacksons name so much.. they get votes by stirring that race hate, Of course HIllary stirs the juices as well. Most of these dumb ass White guys are as scared of women as they are of Blacks.
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Lenore enthusiast Registered: 01/30/00 Posts: 366 |
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The public simply ratifies decisions made well in advance by those that run this nation, the rich.
You're full of it. Had you said run by lagre multi-national businesses(which have vastly more wealth than "the rich" and far greater interest in the "business of government," I mean seriously who do you think most of the laws passed by government are directed at?), hmm.... well excuse my semantic errors Afghani's are not Arabs, I should have said Muslims. Hardly a point which refutes my observation, in fact it seems to make it a stronger case, Christians v. Muslims And as for Multinational Corporations, are they not controlled by very rich individuals? Rich people, those who sit on the Boards and in the chairs of CEO's, so pardon my French, but far from making unsubstantiated claims as you say I have, you have only been able to discredit through insignificant arguments such as Afghanis are not Arabs, or Corporations not the rich. You have not disproved any point I have made.
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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And you have yet to prove that this is a crusade(war on Muslims by Christians)... so who's to be taken more seriously? Some one who's pointed out that we're supporting some Muslims and not others or someone who's claiming it's a "racist" war with no proof? I'd say the fact that we're supporting the Northern Alliance(even if they are murdering, raping bastards) and being supported by Pakistan's General Musharaf(sp?) who are Muslims makes your argument flawed. If there were no Muslims on our side, I'd be inclined to take you more seriously.
As far as multinational corps being run by "the rich," people in these corps can be changed. Boards can be dissolved, CEOs are fired all the time, major stock holders... well that's a different matter. I can't say that there are no wealthy people that are in charge of major corp(look at Bill Gates), but to blatently claim that there's some mysterious group of "rich" that are plotting the course of all people is foolish, or do you think the Rothchilds control everything? -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell Edited by MokshaMan (10/25/01 02:21 AM)
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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Sometimes it's just best to smile, nod, and walk away since you won't change either my mind or my understanding of what happened this past election.
I think Jesse Jackson has done some wonderful things(helping to bridge the gap and bring soldiers home), but at the same time he's a hipocrite(he's proved this)... and he stirs up as much racial tension as any GOPer about certain groups(ie GOP). Certainly a lot better than listening to Farrakan(sp?) though, so I guess I shouldn't complain. As far as Hillary goes, anyone that moves to a state simply to get voted into office... well let's just say I wouldn't trust that person. Of course I don't trust anyone that stays married because it is better to do so politically. That's all I'm going to say about Hillary as well. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell Edited by MokshaMan (10/25/01 02:24 AM)
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 7 days |
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"As far as Hillary goes, anyone that moves to a state simply to get voted into office... well let's just say I wouldn't trust that person. Of course I don't trust anyone that stays married because it is better to do so politically. That's all I'm going to say about Hillary as well."
Well, Moksha, guess you'd have to write off my Senator (mcCain) as he dumped his wife and moved to AZ after he got back form VN. Married the daughter of as a rich cat (liquor distributor) and ran for political office. And as far as Hillary goes. you don't know why she's still married to Bill. How many times you been married? Got any kids? Split the family up? Talk is cheap... you just let your prejudices show. You don't know this woman. Personally, I look at how people vote - if they support legislation I like, I vote for them... their personal life (as displayed in the media) isn't of much concern to me. We don't really know these folks and anyone can be made to look bad. Most of that 'character' bullshit is just that - Bullshit. Look at Sen Kerrey - Medal of Honor winner - then it turns out he murdered unarmed women and children and clained it was VietCong so he got a Bronze Star. Look at OJ Simpson, '' great movie and sports hero, the we find out he was a wife beater and eventually a murderer. Look at Newt Gingrich... great GOP moral Icon who dumps his wife while she is in the hospital with cancer and then is having an affair with his secretary while condemning Clinton. Look at GOP Rep Livingston who was to be Speaker and had to resign when Larry Flynt threatened to release the audio tapes showing he was into S&M and having an affair.. And on and ON -- so it goes/// I suggest you focus on how these folks vote when it comes to helping the sick, needy children and others... rather than spouting off pious crap you get from places like the Rush Limbaugh show...
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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> How many times you been married?
Just the once... no kids yet, but we want to wait until we're established before we have kids... not that it really matters to this discussion. You're 100% right, I don't know her; however, I do know the policy she set forward for a national health care coverage and I couldn't stand it. For the record, I don't care that much for McCain either. Can't stand Ginrich, thought it was horrible that he was put in charge. Don't know enough about Kerry or Livingstone to comment. I think that it's disgusting that the US voted in a draft dodger over a wounded war hero, you want a true and good representation of the GOP look no further than Bob Dole. There are a lot of people on both sides of the aisle that I don't believe disserve to be representing the people, and I'm allowed to this opinion. Character matters to a certain degree to me, it's not the most important thing I'll admit. Of course, they don't always vote like they say they will on(before) election day anyhow. And the moving into a state simply because you think you can get voted in there was never really answered... I don't know why you included while quoting me. I still say that it's a strange reason(to get voted into office) to move some where, especially when you're not even from the same region. I mean how does she represent the north, muchless New York(not just the city, but the entire state)? Because she lived near there when she went to college? As for spouting off shit from Rush Limbaugh, I've listened to the man a couple times when I was much younger... I think for the most part he's a fat blathering idiot. Don't represent me if you don't fucking know me, or do you not take your own advice? As for helping the sick and needy, I donate money/food(not much I'm a college student, but what I can) and generally work a couple weeks in the summer for Habitat. That's more than I can say for most people I know. If I lived closer to a large city, I'd try to volunteer my time to soup kitchens and homeless shelters, but I don't so I can't. It is my opinion that this is not something that the federal government should be taking care of, but should be a community wide effort to help(possibly financial help from Federal gov, but not decided by Federal gov.). In my opinion that just represents more big federal government and considering after the civil war(and during) it usurped much power that does not rightly belong to it, well... I think you can see my opinion on this. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 7 days |
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Pretty good post. Sorry about that Limbaugh crack. and if the people of New York believe Hillary would be a better Senator than some life long guy who is paid for by big inetrests they have all the right to do so. I'm just glad Guliani didn't run against her. Of course his sex life isn't all that pure now is it.
And you don't know squat about Bob Dole... Anyhow, I don't have trouble with a war protester if he is protesting a war where his Country is on the wrong side. Would that more Germans had protested against the Nazis. I'm not out to trash Bob Dole but since you bring him up as some sort of good guy here's some facts for you - A suburban Washington woman confirmed a report on October 24th 1976 that she was Bob Dole?s mistress for 4 years starting in 1968. They would meet for secret trysts while he was still married. Merideth Roberts (63, and a native Australian)was a secretary at George Washington University at the time. Bob Dole did not deny the affair. Now let?s see, she must have been 35 at the time and old Dole must of been about 45. Bet his daughter was around 10 or 11? Of course he eventually dumped his wife and daughter and got divorced.... funny, Clinton's this big bad guy because he hasn't left his wife and fooled around. Dole does it, dumps his wife and no one says a thing. The press pretty much gave him a free ride. More stuff,,,Bob Dole said in July 1982 ? When the political action committees give money, they expect something in return other than good government? Well, let?s look at what some of they got. Bob Dole has received over $1 million dollars from the Gallo Winery concern. $381,000 directly to his campaign and $790,000 to the Dole Foundation. They got: passage of the generation-skipping transfer legislation which is estimated to have saved them over $104 million dollars in inheritance taxes; Government subsidies of over $23.8 million as part of the Market Promotion Program (goal was to encourage exports - some call it corporate welfare); Federal ruling allowing them to change the ?bulk processing? label on their champagne to the ?Charmat Method?; the elimination of any ?sin taxes? in his health care proposal (he hinted he might consider them, got $90,000 to his leadership PAC & $100,000 to his Better America Foundation and they disappeared). Bob Dole has received over $200,000 from the Archer Daniels Midland Corp to his leadership PAC and think tank and more than $275,000 to the Dole Foundation. The Red Cross got $500,000 when Elizabeth took over and Dole has received countless Airplane rides. During 1993 -1994 alone he took more than a trip a month on ADM aircraft. This is also the guy who helped with the Florida Condo bought for $150,000 and valued at $300,000. They got: His support of the ethanol program which has saved ADM over $475 million in tax benefits. They also have received over $424 million in direct subsidies as part of the Export Enhancement Program , wheat to Russia and other deals (Dole is senior member on the Agriculture Committee); Dozens of other tax loopholes associated with corn sweeteners, peanut price supports and other goodies. Bob Dole received over $240,000 in his campaigns and over $225,000 for his foundations from the Koch Brothers. Oil company billionaires. He got $150.000 in contributions in 1995 at a $1000 a plate party hosted by the Kochs on his 72nd birthday. They got: an estimated $54 million dollar civil lawsuit by the EPA dropped after Dole introduced the Comprehensive Regulatory Reform Act of 1995. They reportedly spilled 2.3 million gallons of oil in over 300 incidents in six states. This lawsuit was considered one of the largest cases ever brought by the EPA for non-compliance with the Clean Water Act. BTW the bill was drafted for Dole by the CSE (Citizens for a Sound Ecology) an organization to which the Kochs have donated millions and David Koch was once President of! I must go on or I?d tell you more...In 1989 the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs said Koch had stolen $10 million in oil from Indian Land and $21 million from other areas. (FBI officials conducted probe). Probe was terminated because of the ?Koch Family?s political connections?. (guess who?) I?ll stop here. So much for this guys great Character. No I'll take Bill Clinton and his sleazy sex morals... at least he wasn't paying off corporate interests in order to pad his checking account.So go ahead and be a sucker and vote based on some news articles about character...I say we would be better served if people voted for the issues... Here's what I heard and believe: Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events and large minds discuss issues... You notice it is most always Republicans who want to discuss people and their 'Character'. Edited by ElPrimo (10/27/01 10:34 AM)
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>> if the people of New York believe Hillary would be a better Senator than some life long guy who is paid for by big inetrests they have all the right to do so
This is true, doesn't mean I understand it(or that they were given much of a choice)... of course I'd rather have someone homegrown than moved in, especially if it was a carpet bagger... >> Some folks say he got wounded running away. Well when I met him, that's not the story I got but what does he know... >> Bob Dole said in July 1982 ? When the political action committees give money, they expect something in return other than good government? So? That's what all special interest groups expect, even the ones that support the Democrats(or do you not believe special interests give to Democrats?). Quid pro quo; I scratch your back, you scratch mine; this has been around forever I'll bet and will continue to be around. If you want to get rid of this, you'll have to convince Congress and the President to sign it into law, not to mention the 1st Amendment questions that would be brought up. I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is. >>$790,000 to the Dole Foundation. AND more than $275,000 to the Dole Foundation. AND over $225,000 for his foundations "The Dole Foundation for the Employment of People with Disabilities, established by Senator Robert J. Dole, provides grant funds to non-profit, 501(c)3 organizations conducting innovative or best practices employment programs promoting the employment of people with disabilities." from a 1997 Press Release by The Dole Foundation for the Employment of People with Disabilities How awful that he would force people to contribute. I mean can you believe it, helping people with disabilities. What a bastard! I mean, that money should be going to killing babies or helping kids get hooked on crack... Not to mention the fact that he made businesses give money to the Red Cross, what a jerk. Can't believe I've gone to see him give speeches thrice. >>You notice it is most always Republicans who want to discuss people and their 'Character' I said it was an issue, I didn't say it was the only issue, please reread my last post. I also never said Dole was perfect, but I certainly would take him over a man that's been accused of murder(at least 35 mysterious deaths in Arkansas related to Clinton, Waco(or was that all Reno's fault?), allowing Rwanda(use to know someone there... not anymore), bombing of Sudan, the "drug war" in Columbia where we're supporting paramilitaries slaughtering innocents and spraying inhabitated areas with poison) and accepting money from foreign interests(selling national secrets to China). Should I do a similiar list of dirty laundry for Clinton and then we can compare who's is bigger(or worse)? I don't think this would accomplish anything. BTW if you look back up at the rest of my posts I did talk about issues dealing with the current conflict taking place in Afghanistan. Just found this quote, thought you'd enjoy it: "'We're not inflicting pain on these fuckers,' Clinton said, softly at first. 'When people kill us, they should be killed in greater numbers.' Then, with his face reddening, his voice rising, and his fist pounding his thigh, he leaned into Tony [Lake], as if it was his fault. 'I believe in killing people who try to hurt you. And I can't believe we're being pushed around by these two-bit pricks'" -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell Edited by MokshaMan (10/27/01 02:02 AM)
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 22 years, 7 days |
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Sorry you saw that part about Dole before I could delete it,, I don't think it is appropriate to repeat it and regret doing so. The only thing good I can say about Bob Dole is that I prefer him a hundred times over the self rightious, neo-nazis running the GOP these days.
Anyway, after this nonsense "take him over a man that's been accused of murder (at least 35 mysterious deaths in Arkansas related to Clinton", I can see we're not going to get anywhere. I never said Clinton was a paragon of virtue... but you're being ridiculous here. It's money that runs this world, follow the money trail and you can find most anything. Most of the big money is against Clinton and it isn't because of his sex life. But Clinton, while better than just about any GOPer is too conservative for me. From my point of view, the conservatives are the cause of most of our problems. Those in power during the 60's murdered our President John Kennedy and covered it up. Tried to claim it was a socialist who did it.. LMAO.. 6 weeks before he was murdered, JFK issued an Executive order pulling all troops out of Vietnam. 4 days after he was murdered and on his very first day in office, LBJ rescinded it. Kennedy fired both the head of the CIA and his second in command. Apparently he paid dearly for this. The phony ass Warren commision was composed of all Republicans except for 2 Southern conservative Democrats. The current conservative tactic is to pit Black against White against Mexican. Religious against against freedom thinkers. Straights against gays. Our 2 Party system is going to get pretty ugly as the GOPers continue to represent more and more Whites (afraid the minorities are trying to take their money due to GOPer propaganda) against a Dem Party composed of Minorities and liberals, gays etc. who want a fair wage, education and health care. We are adapting the South American system, where wealthy families will live in gated communities and be protected from the poor by troops and secret police. Every day the conservatives take away more American freedoms and rights so they can put this in place. They use all kinds of reasons for doing so... today it is to 'get terrorists'. Go ahead, tell yourself that the GOP will attract minorities... that Blacks only vote Dem because they are dumb and hoodwinked. It's a lie. They vote Dem because the GOP institutes policies that hurt them as a people... Policies that hurt all poor people... and minorities are disproportionately poor. And as GOP policies create a bigger and bigger gap betwwen the haves and have nots, as they destroy the middlle class (built by socialist principles like free education) there will be more and more poor.. Then there will be even more of an effort not to count their votes. George Bush vetoed the moter voter bill 2 times when he was President. I know the GOp doesn't want to count the votes of the poor. I know that they use their money to sway voters with race hate and other items. That they have many times the money of poor people to advertise and sway the electorate. They could never win on the issues. But it won't work forever... there will just be too many poor.... just as Black people voted Marion Berry back into office and cheered OJs acquittal.. they will ignore the 'machine'... they won't trust anything you say... even when you might be telling the truth.. It will be a long struggle... having gone on for centuries and will continue to go on for many years after we are gone. But I know what side I'm on and I suppose you know which side you are on. But I don't take it too personal.. I think we are all pretty much bit players in a grand scheme, programmed to play out certain roles... cheers
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