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OfflineBlue Helix
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Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure
    #4273456 - 06/08/05 10:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I HAVE DELETED THIS POIST BECAUSE NEW TESTS MADE ME CHANGE MY MIND ON THIS TOPIC

I believe I found the culprit for my horse poo fermentation. This is very embarrassing, but I no longer believe it was the method of pasteurization. I now firmly believe it was due to core temperatures getting way too high. It's a long story but basically, I was using a heat-reflective bubble wrap snugly tailored to the outside of these 12-quart containers IN COMBINATION with plastic wrap. I had never used this combination, and I was not monitoring core temperatures either. Some testing on other situations with these conditions have lead me to believe that the core likely reached 95F or even higher. At those high temperatures, the bed likely went anaerobic since it only had tiny pin holes to breath, and the result was the fermentation.


Edited by Blue Helix (06/21/05 03:32 AM)


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OfflinePooPs
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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4273621 - 06/08/05 10:57 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

i don't totally agree.

It's all about the pickins... get the pile that has sat for a few years... wich has lots of greens growing from it.

Pull the greens.. dig down a few inches and what you find should be perfect to mix with a bit of verm... wetted.placed in a large turkey rosating tin... and cooked until 180 and keept there for 2 hrs.

let cool. spawn and sit back !


--------------------


-----------
Sniff, Sniff... What's that smell???... ohhhhh.!!
------------------


Pot Free for another : nevermind.. never made it..


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: PooPs]
    #4273949 - 06/09/05 12:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

PooPs, I totally agree with you. But I would call what you found COMPOSTED. I had only aged manure. There is a fine line between the two, but there is a difference. Plants growing from your manure is near proof that it isn't too hot or else it's burn the roots of the plant. But you have to be careful with composted manure too. If it's too composted, it'll be just as worthless as the stuff that just popped out of the horse's ass.

I would estimate that the stuff I had found was about a year old. That's what I think most people are finding. It was dry and smelled of earth. It worked fine for a soak-based pasteurization but not for a straight cook type.

The myth I am trying to bust with this thread is that manure that smells like earth and is dried out, is somehow safe for non-soaking pasteurization and spawning. I would strongly advise against it considering how it failed for me in a totally predictable fermentation reaction.

Here's what I recommend: Find yourself some aged manure that smells of earth and is dried out--it should NOT be green in the center. If it has plants growing from it, you can probably just moisten and pasteurize; otherwise, I would recommend the soak-based pasteurization.


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4274073 - 06/09/05 12:45 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I do that all the time. I thought the same thing, and ONCE or twice it didn't colonize much...Then stopped just as you described.

The Poo I get is rather fresh. I let it bake in the sun, get whethered (all on a tarp) and then I leech it for a day or 2...After that it's soak-pasturization tine :cool:...It's only failed once so far...But I'm positive that it was b/c they was to much ammonia(piss)....Even thought I leeched it...Doubt it was long enough...Just to new...:shrug:

Nice Thread BTW

-Gnostic


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4274281 - 06/09/05 01:36 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
Agar and perhaps a couple others around the Shroomery have recommended non-soaking techniques for pasteurizing horse manure whereby the manure never touches the heated water directly (it's loaded in poly bags or such). I believe such techniques are fine for compost, but manure should be soaked in my opinion during pasteurization.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You might reread the POST, impart set forth below.
BECAUSE, YOU ARE INCORRECT ABOUT WHAT I RECOMMEND:

1. Fill large pot 1/2 or 3/4 full h/poo.

2. Add enough spring -or- distilled -or- boiled (allowed to cool) water (so chlorine is dissipated) to cover content.

3. Allow to soak for an hour (to hydrate & loosen h/poo), stir to break up clumps, dig in with washed hands(or wear gloves)& crumble all clumps until consistency of everything in pot is moist fibers (no clumps, lumps or nuggets).



NOTE SOAKING H/POO

4. Add 10 to 20% chunky verm (if you want, or prefer to)

5. Heat pot until content is warm, but not so hot you cannot handle it, by hand.

6. Drain off as much water as possible.


7. With large ladle (or by hand) remove some content & place in colander (in sink), then mash to remove excess moisture, so mixture is not soupy.

8. Do SQEEEZE TEST (by hand). You want to be able to pick up handful, THAT DOESNT DRIP, but does drip a few drops - when you give it a GENTLE SQUEEZE.

9. Load (squeeze tested) h/poo into any type baking, or autoclave bag.

10. Use rubber band to hold bag neck closed.

11. Place a plate in large water pot bottom (so bag doesn?t contact hot pot bottom directly).

12. Submerse bag in large pot of water, turn heat to low.

13. Use candy thermometer (held in place near bag neck - with rubber band) to monitor water temp.

14. Get water temp up to 160 / 170 F range (DO NOT GO OVER 180F).

15. Simmer submersed bag at 160 / 170 F range two (2) hours.

16. Remove bag, TIGHTEN RUBBER BAND, so bag is AIR TIGHT & allow to cool to room temp.

17. Once bag is cooled to room temp. If it appears content is a little to moist. Loosen rubber band on bag neck, hold bag over sink (upside down) & squeeze out any excess moisture.

18. If bag content appears to DRY, add TINY bit of pre/boiled water (allowed to cool to room temp) a VERY SMALL increment at a time, to adjust moisture content.

19. In aseptic conditions, dump (however much) into SANITIZED TRAY & add spawn ASAP (20% + spawn rate).

(NOTE - most bulk h/poo substrate failures (other than mold type contams)are caused by substrate BEING TO WET, at spawning)


--------------------


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4274322 - 06/09/05 01:49 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

6. Drain off as much water as possible.




I interpreted what you said as not using a large volume of water to rinse out the manure. Was that the wrong interpretation?

I believe if one doesn't have enough water volume during pasteurization and the manure isn't years old, the process very well could result in a substrate way too nitrogen-rich to use and spark fermentation. That is what my experience suggests at least.

I don't want this to get into a war here. It is plainly obvious that what ever you are doing is working well for you, but I am posting this because I just wasted a lot of time on something that failed in a miserable way which I believe it was related to the new pasteurization tek much as you outline above. Ironically, the only reason I tried that new technique was because I could see that it would yield much more nitrogen-rich substrate (and maybe more powerful shrooms I hoped), but I think it went too far toward that end and sparked the fermentation.


Edited by Blue Helix (06/09/05 01:50 AM)


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4274357 - 06/09/05 02:12 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The h/poo that I use is well weathered, bone dry & the nuggets & muffins are still intact. It is light in weight, high in fiber & has utterly no smell of urine, or residual ammonia. I don't know about h/poo that is somewhat fresh, or unweathered. As, I don't use it.

All horses, their feed, h/poo & age/condition isn't identical.

I am truly sorry you had a bacterial bloom & the substrate fermented. I have been there & done that. It is a PITA to see all that time, material & effort go south.


--------------------


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Offlinemushroommark
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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4274851 - 06/09/05 05:45 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Drain off as much water as possible.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I interpreted what you said as not using a large volume of water to rinse out the manure. Was that the wrong interpretation?





I thought you brought up a very interesting point and just wanted to add a couple thoughts.

I've always had LOTS of trouble finding truly weathered h/poo (probably just not looking hard enough, it's still a chore for me), let alone composted.

So I've had to gather nearly fresh poo (still REEKING of ammonia) and let it soak for 24 - 48 hours:



Then placed onto a tarp for drying:

 

However, I've found it very difficult to completely eliminate the "shitty" smell even after this leaching.

I've never allowed it to truly weather on the tarp for a few weeks; five days tops.

When I take the h/poo home and attempt to rehydrate it, that's when I notice it still stinks.  Not anything horrific, but definately not what I would call "earthy."  More like "shitty"

So after letting rehydrate at least an hour (sometimes much longer, up til 24 hours) I usually do just what you mention not doing Blue Helix: use a large volume of water to rinse out the manure.

I do this in a collander in the sink:



This tends to get most of the smell out, but not everything.

It never occured to me that I was also rinsing out lots of nutrients.  Which, in a way, is similar to what is done with wet pasteurizing, as you mention Blue Helix.

It seems it is a fine line of making sure there's not too little and not too much Nitrogen.

I then add verm, bring up to correct moisture content and place into turkey tins.  Cover turkey tins with foil and place in oven to pasteurize:





This is just my experience.  I've had a couple of tubs fail due to fermentation, but at this point I'm quite certain that is was due to a combination of  overly wet poo and too high incubation temps (80 - 84 F with thick substrate and large bins)

Okay, so what's my point?

For those still wanting to use a dry pasteurization technique, as I do, for it's ease-of-use and being mess-free.

But can't find perfectly weathered h/poo, give the poo a GOOD RINSE with before packing up in turkey tins, PP bags, etc.

This way you rinse away a lot of the ammonia (and N, which didn't previously occur to me)

Thanks for the post Blue Helix.  It brings up good points to mention when working with fresher h/poo and h/poo's use definately seems to have been on the rise.



Either way, I still think, at least for me, that the best bet is to look harder and find some truly weathered (closer to composted) h/poo that doesn't smell AT ALL.

Then I wouldn't have to be as concerned with the urea not be rinsed/leeched out completely as the weather would have truly already done that work. This would allow me to skip the outdoor initial leeching as well as the rinsing in a collander in the sink.

Both of those steps are A LOT of unnecessary work.

It also wouldn't stink in my house.


------Which is important so my girlfriend doesn't know it's h/poo I have in her kitchen. :smile:



Mushymark


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: mushroommark]
    #4281514 - 06/10/05 10:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

what i was thinking about doing is, before i do anything,

take the horse shit and break it all up and wet it to field and then pick all the sticks out and give it a good flushing and then let it dry out again...

and then break it all up so i'll have loose dry shit.

my horse shit looks like finely shredded hay... is that what it SHOULD look like?

wal mart has some cow shit that looks like even finer shredded hay.

i was wondering if i should get some of that cow shit and mix it with horse shit 50/50... is that a good idea?..

or should i go with the horse shit alone??

also.. i was thinking of something else but i forgot what it was


--------------------
:bongload: Look into my heyes !! :bongload:


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Offlinemushroommark
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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: ThumpaCap]
    #4282113 - 06/11/05 01:37 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Go with the horse shit alone. No question about it.

Yes, it does tend to look like finely shredded straw, as h/poo is largely composed of straw.

Quote:

wal mart has some cow shit that looks like even finer shredded hay.




Stay away from store bought cow manure at all possible costs.

If you have horse manure all dried and ready to go. It is the best substrate hands down -------- until you start using compost, but that's a whole other story.

Quote:

take the horse shit and break it all up and wet it to field and then pick all the sticks out and give it a good flushing and then let it dry out again...




Sounds good, pretty much the same thing I do.







Good luck

Mark


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: mushroommark]
    #4282367 - 06/11/05 03:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

cool... thanx... so the mushroom community does support lysol..lol.... looks like a forest !!!... i just wish i could find original lysol without the fragrance.... seems like its extinct around here... it actually smells best to me... reminds me of when i was in kindergarten when the teach used to spray the shit around the classroom... looking back i'm sure she was trying her best to disinfect us kids...hee ha.. don't blame her now... i love kids but they are like walking cultures...lol


--------------------
:bongload: Look into my heyes !! :bongload:


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OfflinePooPs
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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: ThumpaCap]
    #4284100 - 06/11/05 07:21 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The Blue Lysol is the only one i can stand ..... unscented would be awsome !


--------------------


-----------
Sniff, Sniff... What's that smell???... ohhhhh.!!
------------------


Pot Free for another : nevermind.. never made it..


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: PooPs]
    #4284162 - 06/11/05 07:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

no shit that stuff after like 1week it gives me a head ache...and burns on my arms from exploding glove boxes.....ill stick with they old rubahol


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: 5meopsyco]
    #4300809 - 06/15/05 08:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I just posted this on another forum but I'll say it again here. I use freshly laid poo that I dry until it is really dry. I pasteurize it in oven bags in a large pot of water (no free soak).To make sure the pasteurization is thorough I mix the dry poo with water that is the same temp that I intend to pasteurize at. At the end of the pasteurization and cooling all it needs is a bit of a squeeze before laying on the spawn. I get good growth throughout the poo and good flushes. So far so good.


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: flower]
    #4301552 - 06/15/05 11:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So you
Dry the poo completely
Fill dry poo in oven bag
Bring water to 170 (<---- is that right)
Submerge oven bag for 45 minutes
Then add the hot water from the outside to the inside of the bag.

or atleast that was the way I think you explained it.

Any thoughts from the Pro's
and How much water does dry poo need to re-hydrate?
THANKS!


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438
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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
    #4304994 - 06/16/05 08:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry, that came out wrong. I thoroughly dry the manure and then add enough hot water to saturate the poo, then pasteurize. Just add water until it's soaked. After pasteurizing and cooling just squeeze out excess water and you're good to go.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: flower]
    #4319550 - 06/21/05 03:31 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

UPDATE - NEW TEST MADE ME CHANGE MY MIND ON THIS TOPIC

I believe I found the culprit for my horse poo fermentation. This is very embarrassing, but I no longer believe it was the method of pasteurization. I now firmly believe it was due to core temperatures getting way too high. It's a long story but basically, I was using a heat-reflective bubble wrap snugly tailored to the outside of these 12-quart containers IN COMBINATION with plastic wrap. I had never used this combination, and I was not monitoring core temperatures either. Some testing on other situations with these conditions have lead me to believe that the core likely reached 95F or even higher. At those high temperatures, the bed likely went anaerobic since it only had tiny pin holes to breath, and the result was the fermentation.


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4319656 - 06/21/05 05:26 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No need to be embarrased.  If fact, quite the opposite.
I commend you for addressing this.  It is hard to admit a mistake, most people would have just let the thread die off and not updated, but if everyone acted the way you have, this hobby would progress much faster. 
:thumbup: :cheers: :thumbup:


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4319784 - 06/21/05 08:47 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with @Cro. Nothing to blush about. Fecal matter happens & that is a fact of life.

I also have to point out - that several using h/poo the first time - did so just as spring & warmer tempuratures began. In the winter (at least in most parts of the USA), room temp's are much lower & proper incubation of a spawned substrate requires additional heat.

With warmer weather temp's - normal room temp's often exceed those that are optimal for substrate spawn run incubation. Which - if not attended to by cooling somehow - often lead to higher than optimal spawm run temp's - leading to substrates overheating & failure.


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Re: Why one should free soak pasteurize horse manure [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4320084 - 06/21/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, the silver bubble wrap stuff is very powerful. I knew it was a good insulator, but I didn't realize how good. I just thought it would make a good replacement for foil to cut out the light. In reality it more like adding external heating. I came to realize this when grain running in these sleeves suddenly got about 93F. That was just GRAIN. Imagine how hot a heavily spawned manure would get? I could have EASILY gotten in the upper 90s before running out of air.

From now on, I will always monitor core temepratures so this doesn't happen. Foil can be used to block the light but covering with plastic wrap during the spawn run is not required at all. Just placing the tray in the fruiting chamber with the air circulation off but without any cover like I've done before allows the gases to escape without drying the tray out. Plastic wrap sounds more like a good casing run idea, to keep the CO2 levels up and keep in some of the warmth so you don't switch to fruiting mode before the casing run is done. And if the core falls too far (say 83F or so), one can always slip on the bubble wrap sleeves in the middle of the casing run to keep the temps up. I have done that before with great success (see my coir versus peat thread).

As a general note, all of these things depend on ambient temperatures. That's why a core tempature probe is always a good idea. Without a core probe you are a little in the dark. A digital probe like that costs about $12 at Walmart, and I think it is well worth it if you are going to be doing manure trays in your future.


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