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 OldWoodSpecter
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 personification of universe 
#4273031 - 06/08/05 06:30 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Often I can read on this forum people talking about universe like this:
-universe is doing this/that..
-universe wants you to do this/that...
-universe has morals
-universe is experiencing this or that
-universe is telling you this/that
universe is a summ of everything in existence, like a bowl of beans together. Someone explain to me, how can a bowl of beans have demands, morals, or talk with humans. Do you talk with a bowl of beans?
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Someone explain to me, how can a bowl of beans have demands, morals, or talk with humans.
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Humans are part of the universe. That's how! 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: personification of universe [Re: Icelander]
#4273053 - 06/08/05 06:40 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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no, no...listen
how can universe ask something out of a humanity, when the humanity is the one that is asking
how can universe put morals unto humans when it is humans who put morals unto themselfs
i'm talking about relationship between humans and universe in general
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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IMO the fact that humans are somehow not the universe is mistaken. There is no seperation. That is an illusion. Everything I know of points to this. So humans having morals or anything is the universe expressing itself in one of its endless manifestations. You cannot seperate the universe from its parts.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: personification of universe [Re: Icelander]
#4273091 - 06/08/05 06:56 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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you can, just as you can separate an arm from the body. In talk, you can say: "relationship of an arm with the body" or "body does this to the arm" etc
you can do anything with concepts, split them, combine them, twist them, change them.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
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Posts: 4,033
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Re: personification of universe [Re: Icelander]
#4273109 - 06/08/05 07:01 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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and what applies to one part of the whole, does not always apply to the whole itself.
For example, some here seem to think morality is a law of the universe. But morality does not exist on Jupiter right now, and Jupiter is a part of universe, so not all parts of universe have morality.
What I want to know is, how can a distant lifeless planet dictate morality to human beings? Or how can a stone do that?
How can anything exept humans dictate it?
Or how can a night sky "want" something? Or a sea? Or any other part of universe exept humans or other living beings.
This thread is about people who seem to think that the very essence of space time continuoum is a conscious living being with opinions
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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You're right, people involve a lot of wishful thinking in the universe. They think that because they have consciousness, they're granted some VIP pass where they can tell the universe what it should be doing.
The truth is, all of the talk about what the universe wants or experiences or tells you is just a miniscule area of the universe that we interpret to be giving us meaning. We might see the way the wind blows through the trees and in a moment of fleeting enlightenment think the universe is telling us to stop resisting the wind, when really this message comes from within.
If you make the connection that we are to the universe as our ego is to our subconscious mind, then it makes a lot more sense, since we realize all of this hidden realizations and experiences we project on the universe are actually coming from the vastness beyond our ego but still in the confines of our forehead. The universe itself is not the perception we make it out to be, nor are the projections we put upon it its true nature. The only element these perceptions and projections reveal are our own minds, which is enough in the end.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Now Now Old. You are making a statement about truth that you cannot know. We had this out on another thread. You cannot know weather Juipter has morals or not because you don't know if it's conscious or not. Many think the earth is conscious and I am one of them. Why not Juipter? You could also say the universe does not have fingers because Jupiter does not have them. Not all humans dictate morality either. The in the human body each organ has a function apart from another organ yet they work together to make something larger. Why not the universe also?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: personification of universe [Re: Icelander]
#4273170 - 06/08/05 07:16 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Wait a second, planets have consciousness?
Ok I'll admit that I don't know for sure that they don't, but where did you get that idea? I mean, same way I can say that when people close thier eyes a blue elephant appears above thier heads.
Isn't that just making up fairytales?
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Maybe it is. I know I came from "lifeless" components of earth and I am alive and conscious. Can you explain how that fairytale happened? 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: personification of universe [Re: Ravus]
#4273194 - 06/08/05 07:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes, but our subconsciousness is a living being with wishes, demands, even plans, another part of us.
But as for universe, there is a bunch of brains here (or on some other planet too) and a LOOOOT of dust and rocks in between. these brains are capable of giving you signs and communicating, so the only way you are going to get a message from the universe is by getting a message from one of its parts: a fellow brain or whatever intelligent machine/organism/being. As far as I know rocks don't tell you anything, they just sit there.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: personification of universe [Re: Icelander]
#4273208 - 06/08/05 07:25 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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your atoms are not conscious, their combination is
same way a meat grinder doesn't grind meat when it is in parts.
How can you explain that a mind grinder grinds meat and before it was put together from parts it wasn't able to do it? 
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (06/08/05 07:26 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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As far as you know! That's the rub. You don't know how far you know.
Maybe you are just want to say that peoples morals are arbitrary bullshit. If so just say that. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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talking wind, conscious planets..Swami where are you now??
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: personification of universe [Re: Icelander]
#4273236 - 06/08/05 07:31 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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no, I tried to deal with that in another thread.
this time I want to find out where people get ideas such as yours (about conscious planets)
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Good analogy.
The personification only exists in the minds of those organisms who have evolved to do so. Even the rocks that we see in between the minds of the universe actually exist within your mind; the rocks themselves don't have inherent color or their inherent feel, but rather the characteristics we give to objects are perceptions we create in our neural pathways.
It is the same with the characteristics we give to the universe.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
your atoms are not conscious, their combination is
same way a meat grinder doesn't grind meat when it is in parts.
How can you explain that a mind grinder grinds meat and before it was put together from parts it wasn't able to do it?
You once again are defining a truth you do not know for sure. You sure do that alot. I don't know if individual atoms have consciousness. So how can I discuss this with you?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
no, I tried to deal with that in another thread.
this time I want to find out where people get ideas such as yours (about conscious planets)
I never said the planets are conscious. I said I believed that they could be. I believe the earth is because of some experience I have had with psychedelics. And because I came from the earth and so believe I am part of it.
I know nothing for sure. I just make a guess.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: personification of universe [Re: Ravus]
#4273252 - 06/08/05 07:36 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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yea, the subjectivism spreads much further than the examples because of which I started this thread.
It seems we are most wise when we are unconscious or dead, because every thought and experience is only a twisted picture of what really is.
The every concept I'm using here like "is" "picture" etc is yet another mistake in perception.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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