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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Teachers won't walk with graduates.
    #4271589 - 06/08/05 02:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Teachers won't walk with graduates
Leslie Fulbright

Wednesday, June 8, 2005


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/08/BAEBDIGEST2.DTL





Teachers at Northgate High School in Walnut Creek, who have been working one year without a contract, plan to make a statement at the school's June 14 graduation by refusing to walk in the ceremony.

Instead of wearing caps and gowns and joining students on stage, the teachers will wear black and sit together in the audience. They will not hold signs or disrupt the ceremony.

"We love walking with the students, but we are in really hard contract negotiations with an administration that does not respect teachers," said Jeff Spoden, a social studies teacher. "So we are trying to let people know all is not well in the Mt. Diablo Unified School District.

Usually, the teachers walk in the front and back of each row of students at the graduation.

"Every teacher who goes walks away feeling so full and rich," Spoden said. "This year, we can't."

The Graduation Student Action Committee, upset by the planned action, has been distributing fliers this week in support of the teachers. Students also planned to attend Tuesday night's school board meeting to express outrage with the district, and they plan to talk Thursday with teachers and perhaps present some alternatives.

"They want us to find some other way to convey the message, so we can still walk with them," Spoden said. "We will listen."

Teachers have been negotiating for a year and have not had a pay raise in four years.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
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Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4271593 - 06/08/05 02:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

ok kids heres your final lesson from the public school system.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4271619 - 06/08/05 02:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Allright you barely literate kids that we forced through our education system, here is a life lesson. MONEY TALKS, BULLSHIT WALKS."

Phred said it best, those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4271649 - 06/08/05 02:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

In all fairness, the administrations in the public 'skool' systems are pretty fucked up as well.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4271658 - 06/08/05 02:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The entire system is massively fucked up. Why am I paying a school tax when I went to a private school, and I have no kids in school?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4271699 - 06/08/05 02:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Because some people think it is right to force others to pay for their desires. Politics is (largely) the art of getting someone else to pay for the things you desire, not by persuading them through reason, but by bringing the threat of superior force to bear upon them.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlineesin
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Registered: 11/21/01
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Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4271777 - 06/08/05 02:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Because the entire country profits if the generality of the population is educated.

If there weren't public schools MANY people wouldn't be able to afford it for their children. Which would, in the long-term, give way to huge amounts of analphabetism and (even more) youth criminality and child labor.

Now ethics:
You cannot choose if you born in a rich family or a poor family. You are just as human and you have just the same rights as a child who is born from a poor family.
Every kid should have the right to education. Otherwise poor children will be stuck in poverty for the rest of their lives.

Is that fair enough?


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Offlineesin
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Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: esin]
    #4271826 - 06/08/05 02:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If you want a society based on equality and freedom you need to provide everyone with means to *effectively* choose the course of their lives.

If education wasn't free, the children of the people who couldn't afford it wouldn't be equal to others nor would they have the freedom to determine the course of their lives. The 'american dream' would just be a big lie after all wouldn't it?

They aren't equal or have the same freedom as a rich child anyway. But the State should try to mitigate that as much as possible.

If you're so pissed off about paying for other people's education why didn't you take advantage of the public schooling system yourself?


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: esin]
    #4271840 - 06/08/05 03:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

BEKUZ TEH PUBILIC SKOOL SYSTEM IS TEH SUCK.

I wanted, as did my parents, a well-rounded education, and I am turned on by Cathlolic school girls, what better way to see them than to go to their schools *shrug* The thing is, my parents pay A LOT in taxes, but we get less benfit than other families, why?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: esin]
    #4271874 - 06/08/05 03:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

esin said:
Because the entire country profits if the generality of the population is educated.




The country is profiting from people knowing algebra? I don't think that's very true. I'd say that the majority of the jobs in this country, and correspondingly the majority of people that will fill these jobs, require much education. If everyone benefits, why not have everyone pay for the benefit that they get? My parents paid for my education at ap rivate school, and due to their income, they paid for countless marching morons to sit in class stoned and ignore the teachers and work in factories.
Quote:


If there weren't public schools MANY people wouldn't be able to afford it for their children. Which would, in the long-term, give way to huge amounts of analphabetism and (even more) youth criminality and child labor.




The thing is, most people don't need an education to do whatever menial task it is that they do.
Quote:


Now ethics:
You cannot choose if you born in a rich family or a poor family. You are just as human and you have just the same rights as a child who is born from a poor family.




Kids from a poor family have hte right to steal my money from me to pay for their education? OK then, I'll be taking their parents money to compensate my parents for the thousands that they sent putting me through the best private schools in the region.
Quote:


Every kid should have the right to education. Otherwise poor children will be stuck in poverty for the rest of their lives.




Wah.
Quote:


Is that fair enough?



No, it's not. I'm having things stolen from me to provide useless education for people that won't use it, while my parents paid for my private education. It's not fair for me to have to pay to support certain peoples education, knowing that they won't use it.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: esin]
    #4271875 - 06/08/05 03:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

esin said:
Because the entire country profits if the generality of the population is educated.



Define 'entire country.' If SoopaX has no children and has only gone to private school and a public school graduate competes with him for a job and gets it because he is younger and has an education that SoopaX has paid for, how does that benefit SoopaX? Obviously he does not benefit, but is he not part of 'the entire country'?

Quote:

If there weren't public schools MANY people wouldn't be able to afford it for their children.



Maybe you shouldn't have children if you are not prepared to take responsibility for their upbringing.

Quote:

Which would, in the long-term, give way to huge amounts of analphabetism



Funny, but illiteracy is an affliction which effects public high school graduates.

Quote:

and (even more) youth criminality



This is a specious argument. Were there higher crime rates in the U.S. before the advent of tax funded education?

Quote:

and child labor.



Another specious argument.

Quote:

Every kid should have the right to education.



Every kid does have a right to an education, just as every American has a right to free speech or to bear arms. Having a right to something is not the same as forcing another to provide that thing for you. Should the government pay for a rifle for me because I have a right to bear arms? What you are actually saying is that by mere fact of birth a child should have a claim on the fruits of another's labor to fund his education. Is this then a right or a privilege?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4271894 - 06/08/05 03:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Every kid does have a right to an education, just as every American has a right to free speech or to bear arms.  Having a right to something is not the same as forcing another to provide that thing for you.  Should the government pay for a rifle for me because I have a right to bear arms?  What you are actually saying is that by mere fact of birth a child should have a claim on the fruits of another's labor to fund his education.  Is this then a right or a privilege?




Man, do you ever stop with awesome posts :smile:  Good point, though. I'd like to steal money from liberals paychecks to pay for my new project, called "ARM THE YOUTH". We want to put a gun in every kids hand by 2010!


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 11,962
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4271929 - 06/08/05 03:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If you're parents pay A LOT in taxes, it's probably because they make A LOT of money. If this is the case, I'd say being enormously wealthy would offer you more benefit than most families.

But to go back on topic the obvious question is: "Who cares if the teachers walk?". Aside from any other biases people may have against teachers, I still think they are deserving of a contract (the specifics of the contract are another matter).


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
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Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: badchad]
    #4271968 - 06/08/05 03:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

So, since my parents have more money from their hard work and education, we "owe" something? It's their punishment? sounds great to me.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4272010 - 06/08/05 03:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Envy is a powerful political force, reaching it's greatest influence in mature democracies, it precedes their decline.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 11,962
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4272034 - 06/08/05 03:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The bottom line is that a society benefits from the contributions of many. Taxes have to paid to fund the basic functioning of society. My personal belief concerning taxation of the wealthy would be: "Since its the American society itself that allows one to become succesful and wealthy, one should give back to it". You disagree, to each his own.

Regardless you can't selectively pick which taxes you'd like to pay. I could pose the argument that My house has never caught fire, eliminate the taxes which fund the fire dept? I walk to work, why should I have to fund the building of highways? I live in an affluent neighborhood where crime is low, why should I have to pay taxes to fund the police? I'm opposed to the war in Iraq, why should my taxes fund it? etc. etc.

You should pay education taxes because educating the masses is better for everyone. More intelligent and educated workers figure out ways to cut costs and work more efficiently. Do you think the country would be better off if public education were eliminated entirely and only the wealthy that could afford private schools were educated?


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: badchad]
    #4272098 - 06/08/05 03:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The bottom line is that a society benefits from the contributions of many.




But the contributions are mainly made by the rich, rather than the poor, right?
Quote:


Taxes have to paid to fund the basic functioning of society.




I wish that the Constitution listed the uses of taxation... oh, wait.
Quote:


My personal belief concerning taxation of the wealthy would be: "Since its the American society itself that allows one to become succesful and wealthy, one should give back to it". You disagree, to each his own.




If my parents paid for my education, both private school and college, then who should they "give back" to? Shouldn't the poor be "giving back" to the system for welfare? free health care? free education?
Quote:


Regardless you can't selectively pick which taxes you'd like to pay.




How about we just use the Constitution for taxation purposes, and actually have a VOTE on other purposes? *GASP* Doing that instea of liberals telling us how to spend our money?! Perish the thought.
Quote:


I could pose the argument that My house has never caught fire, eliminate the taxes which fund the fire dept?




Yes, we should. If your house burns, you pay the fee that the private firemen charge to put the fire out.
Quote:


I walk to work, why should I have to fund the building of highways?




Have you EVER used a highway? Do you walk on your own private ground, or on sidewalks?
Quote:


I live in an affluent neighborhood where crime is low, why should I have to pay taxes to fund the police?




You shouldn't.
Quote:


I'm opposed to the war in Iraq, why should my taxes fund it? etc. etc.



because the Constitution says so.
Quote:


You should pay education taxes because educating the masses is better for everyone. More intelligent and educated workers figure out ways to cut costs and work more efficiently. Do you think the country would be better off if public education were eliminated entirely and only the wealthy that could afford private schools were educated?




Yes, I do. If noone had to pay taxes for education, people that are sending their moron kids to skoo to learns some nuffins would put them to work, and save us money. The people who care about their kids would put them in school. Or home-school.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: badchad]
    #4272168 - 06/08/05 04:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The bottom line is that a society benefits from the contributions of many.



Society is an abstraction. Society does not benefit except through the individuals comprising it. Of course, having the benefit of multiple channels of communication from many individuals increases an individual's opportunity for benefiting from the experiences and knowledge of others. Living in close proximity to other people provides benefits of concerted actions and access to specialized skills of others as well as opportunities for trade.

Quote:

Taxes have to paid to fund the basic functioning of society.



You are conflating society with a state. They are not the same, this confusion affects a number of your other statements.

Quote:

"Since its the American society itself that allows one to become successful and wealthy, one should give back to it".



There is no identifiable 'society' to give back to. Again, the state (or government) is not the society.

Quote:

You should pay education taxes because educating the masses is better for everyone.



This is a blatant falsehood. Some benefit, it is true, while others do not benefit. Would you care to address the example I gave about SoopaX?

Quote:

More intelligent and educated workers figure out ways to cut costs and work more efficiently.



Education does not necessarily equate with determining efficiency of operation. I suggest that you research the Deming management method. One thing that Deming taught was that line personnel (who are often relatively uneducated) have greater insight into increasing the efficiency of operations than their 'educated' managers.

Quote:

Do you think the country would be better off if public education were eliminated entirely and only the wealthy that could afford private schools were educated?



It is a fallacy to assume that only the wealthy could afford private schools and be educated. The majority of private school and home schooled students are not wealthy, in fact their parents make sacrifices to assure that their children get better educations, while continuing to pay for the failed public school system. It is a fair assumption that should less people be burdened with paying for public education, more funds would be available for use in private education. When public education gives us high school graduates who are so illiterate as to be incapable of filling out a job application, I am inclined to think that the money might be better managed when dispersed through the private sector as opposed to being funneled through the educational bureaucracy.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 11,962
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4272293 - 06/08/05 04:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I tend to view the country as a machine with many working parts. The contributions of specific classes are debateable. Perhaps the wealthy and upper class may contribute "more" in terms of guidance and ideas, but they need the working class to implement their ideas. If we placed Donald Trump and his brilliance in a third world country, he wouldn't have the resources to achieve his goals.

It's my opinion that educating the masses is a good thing. Technological advances build upon one another. Information is passed from one generation to another, and each time it is expanded upon and increased. The more information we pass along, the greater chance we have of expanding upon an idea and coming up with something new. If we eliminated universal education we risk losing an otherwise great mind and/or discovery.

Although I'm not familiar with Deming sepcifically I'm familiar with the concept. One could argue however, that we could educate the "line worker" in some type of problem solving ability. This would increase his/her chances of identifying problems and/or increasing efficiency.

I could address the example you asked about: Person A is wealthy, privately educated and pays his way through school. While doing so, his taxes fund Person B, who is dirt poor yet highly intelligent. Person B outcompetes Person A at a pharmaceutical company. Person B finds the cure for AIDS. Person A catches it. In effect, Person A has benefitted from funding Person B's education. Obviously, an extreme example, but on a smaller scale, repeated millions of times across a population, the general well-being of the population would increase.

My very general views on taxation: I would tend to say "I am wealthy and lucky to live in the U.S. Were I born in any other country I wouldn't be nearly as well off, and thus I am willing to give back".


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (06/08/05 04:46 PM)


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Teachers won't walk with graduates. [Re: badchad]
    #4272318 - 06/08/05 04:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Give WHAT back? what were they given?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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