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OfflineBodhibiscuit
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Psychedelics and spirituality
    #4268972 - 06/07/05 07:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"Some people come to the Dharma with the hope that it will make their lives more interesting and give them exciting experiences. This hope soon fades. Last night, we were discussing the effect that psychedelic drugs had introducing people to the Buddhist path, especially in the 1960s and 1970s. Of course, the drug culture did open up people's minds to the fact that there is another reality. But as has also been pointed out, the problem with people who have had too much to do with psychedelic drugs is that they become conditioned to look for exciting experiences. Something always has to be happening. It's another kind of hedonistic attachment. It's considered a spiritual outlook by some people, but it's not really spiritual at all. If something exciting doesn't happen after a few days of sitting in zazen, these people are likely to give it all up as a waste of time."

Taken from: Palmo, T. (2002). Reflections on a mountain lake: A Western nun talks on practical Buddhism.
Allen and Unwin: Australia.

Thought this might be relevant or interesting to some people here. I know it is relevant to myself, this passage would have done me good as a teenager.


--------------------
Everyone longs to leave the eternal flux,
not just to live in harmony, but to return and sit by the charcoal fire.
-from the Fifth Rank, Tung-Shan (806-869)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and spirituality [Re: Bodhibiscuit]
    #4269082 - 06/07/05 08:15 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)


when nothing is happenning
one is still likely to buy souvenirs


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and spirituality [Re: Bodhibiscuit]
    #4269094 - 06/07/05 08:19 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It's considered a spiritual outlook by some people, but it's not really spiritual at all.
________________________________________________________________

The Buddhist speaks. :confused: Every fucking thing about life is spiritual. I have used the psychedelic path for many years. Now you tell me what I do and all my gains in love and freedom aren't real at all. And my spiritual path isn't spiritual. Very egotistical, something I notice alot in novice Buddhists. Take a read of Zig Zag Zen. Get back to me.

You are a very funny fellow. :heart: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychedelics and spirituality [Re: Icelander]
    #4269456 - 06/07/05 10:08 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well, everything may be spiritual except your f**kin' language  :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and spirituality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4269507 - 06/07/05 10:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Well, everything may be spiritual except your f**kin' language  :wink:




Really Mark? And why would that one thing not be? :grin: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBodhibiscuit
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Re: Psychedelics and spirituality [Re: Icelander]
    #4269668 - 06/07/05 11:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Icelander, I'm afraid you misinterpreted me. I agree with you that everything about life is spiritual (whether one realizes it or not). Life itself is the greatest trip of all.
Where did anyone say that what you do and all your gains in love and freedom aren't real? Of course what Palmo is saying is just her point of view, but I posted it because it questioned my motives for taking psychedelics and I was also interested to hear other people's opinions as it is quite a contentious subject.
   
I can't deny the value that psychedelics have had for me in ripping my mind open as a teenager :smile: Without them I would not be what I am now, and that is neither good nor bad. I still have a fondness for psychedelics even though on the whole I prefer not to take them. I still enjoy eating cactus a couple of times a year, but in tripping I no longer feel that I am doing anything more spiritual than if I had stared at the wall for twelve hours instead. 

Genuine spiritual insight can be found just as easily by doing the dishes or having a shit or sitting quietly in seated meditation. It is gentler on the body and the psyche and is easier to integrate into one's ordinary life than with psychedelics, unless one is a shaman...

I see Palmo as not so much saying that psychedelics don't have any benefit in their own right but rather she is questioning the motives of people who regularly use psychedelics to attain 'far-out' experiences and then become conditioned to attaining those experiences thus missing the point entirely.

Btw, I'm sorry if you think these views are egotistical, bad ego! :smile:


--------------------
Everyone longs to leave the eternal flux,
not just to live in harmony, but to return and sit by the charcoal fire.
-from the Fifth Rank, Tung-Shan (806-869)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and spirituality [Re: Bodhibiscuit]
    #4269881 - 06/07/05 11:55 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well friend. IMO genuine spiritual insight is hardly ever found doing the dishes until you have had a shock and realized that everything is amazing.

I live in a Buddhist town. Meditators under every rock so to speak. Yet not a lot of real spirit IMO. Mostly telling each other how to find enlightenment from the books they read or a few hours of meditation.

OK maybe there are some real awake Buddhists out there. But I have to say I only know two people who really seem awake to me. One of them just used psychedelics. Committed doses until... He's truly amazing to me. He doesn't meditate except to sit quietly for 15 minutes each morning as the sun rises.

For all the hubbub of these spiritual traditions they don't produce alot of awakened souls per capita. At least it seems that way.

You can abuse psychedelics for sure. You can abuse Buddhism and any other thing also.

What I'm saying is shamanism is a spiritual path on par with any other thing out there. It combines with meditation just fine but isn't necessary. Each religion or philosophy is so invested in itself that it loses sight of the fact that in the end it's a crap shoot. Each person needs to work out their own salvation and one way isn't necessarily better than another. I've looked into many things and they all have some value but none really are better than another. It just comes down to where you are drawn. And that's it. :heart: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Psychedelics and spirituality [Re: Icelander]
    #4270623 - 06/08/05 04:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

a


--------------------
m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.


Edited by matt (08/31/07 07:52 PM)


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Psychedelics and spirituality [Re: Bodhibiscuit]
    #4270712 - 06/08/05 05:39 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhibiscuit said:
Genuine spiritual insight can be found just as easily by doing the dishes or having a shit or sitting quietly in seated meditation. It is gentler on the body and the psyche and is easier to integrate into one's ordinary life than with psychedelics, unless one is a shaman...



I agree with you on that one.

Quote:

Bodhibiscuit said:
I see Palmo as not so much saying that psychedelics don't have any benefit in their own right but rather she is questioning the motives of people who regularly use psychedelics to attain 'far-out' experiences and then become conditioned to attaining those experiences thus missing the point entirely.



How do you define regularly? Personally I consider psychedelics simply as an "interesting experience" and nothing more, with one exception.

That exception is the strong "ego death" trip people sometimes talk about. I have experienced this but once. This very strong trip was without any content and in many ways seemed like dying. It is not what I would call an "interesting experience," however it was intensely spiritual for me as I'm sure it has been for countless others.

I agree one can have spiritual insight anywhere and without mushrooms. But on the other hand ego death is virtually guaranteed to change your outlook on life, maybe profoundly so. As far as I know this state of mind can only be experienced through these types of drugs.


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