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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Where UFO believers and skeptics agree
    #4264816 - 06/06/05 06:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

According to most assessments, believers have concluded that about 95% of UFO sightings are due to misidentification or hoax.

Skeptics agree that AT LEAST 95% are in error and merely go one step further and simply state that if 19 out of 20 observers are definitely in error; then it is no big leap to conclude that 20 out of 20 are in error.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
one-eyed willie
Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 42,409
Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4264833 - 06/06/05 06:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

a


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m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.

Edited by matt (08/31/07 05:53 PM)

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4264837 - 06/06/05 06:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This amuses me..

"misidentification" of an "UFO - An unidentified flying object."

must be the languages? :P ( hirr - hirr )

:sun:


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Disclaimer!?

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4264838 - 06/06/05 06:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

a jump is a jump, it doesn't matter if it is 99 999 to 100 000 or 1 to 2


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4264841 - 06/06/05 06:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

or not. :grin: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Gomp]
    #4264855 - 06/06/05 06:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This amuses me..

"misidentification" of an "UFO - An unidentified flying object."

must be the languages?


Yes it is amusing. The term has taken on new meaning over the decades because of believers comingling UFO with non-human aircraft (or spaceship).


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
one-eyed willie
Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 42,409
Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #4264873 - 06/06/05 06:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

a


--------------------
m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.

Edited by matt (08/31/07 05:52 PM)

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4264880 - 06/06/05 06:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It is those who claim to have been abducted that have steered the public opinion regarding UFO's toward alien ships


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #4264895 - 06/06/05 06:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mattzdope said:
Quote:

mattzdope said:
Do you believe that it's possible for other forms of intelligent life to exist off in very very distant glaxay somewhere in this infinite universe?




Swami?




You have to ask him three times, as per the unwritten rules of debate in S&P. If he skips the third, he concedes the point. :grin: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #4264954 - 06/06/05 06:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Please explain what relevance a squid-like creature on the swamps of Darden IV some million parsecs away that can add 1+1 has to do with human's ability to self-deceive.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Icelander]
    #4264968 - 06/06/05 06:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry, I took a bathroom break.  :rolleyes:

*Swami calls Cox Cable for another hook-up in the throne room*


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4264971 - 06/06/05 06:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

this is what I'm talking about, you have already decided that its all about self-deception


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4264983 - 06/06/05 06:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Sorry, I took a bathroom break.  :rolleyes:

*Swami calls Cox Cable for another hook-up in the throne room*




Now that's a place where you can really pontificate from.  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4264994 - 06/06/05 06:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The way you posted it Swami, you are taking a leap of faith that is no better than the leap of faith any pseudoscientific person would use.

Use logic and rationality, not leaps of faith. You can't just assume because 95% of people are misguided that 100% are, because either way there's no evidence for that 5%. It's much easier to argue against alien visits with simple logic and rationality than assumptions and faith.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Ravus]
    #4265003 - 06/06/05 06:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

yea it's induction, and while induction is an accepted method of logic in the science/discipline of logic, if find it to be nothing more than a logical error. Deduction and silogisms are real logic with no room for error


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4265039 - 06/06/05 07:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think you and Ravus both have it backwards. The 95% of cases are the ones ABLE to be explained by such things as a satellite, helicopter, weather balloon bolide (large meteor), etc.

The UFO believers ASSUME that because 5% of the time an investigator wasn't able to pinpoint the human or natural cause, this gap MUST mean a spaceship.

Who here is making the jump? Show even ONE link from a mysterious light to another star system. There is none; even among proponents.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4265104 - 06/06/05 07:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

These 5% cases are so extraordinary that they capture the imagination of millions.

Here is an example of what I mean:

Here in Croatia there is a fameous case from 1997 where a lot of the population of an island including police patrols have seen a rather strange event, and the talk of the police patrol was recorded too and later used in documentaries about UFO's

There was a large orange glowing ball (not a distant spot) drifting slowly above watter between two islands, the whole event lasted for maybe half hour until the ball went away into the horizond and dissapeared as if it crashed into the watter.

I can't remember the specifics of what the police patrol assumed about its height above watter and its size, but they reported it was large and that it changed colors

Witnesses uncluded old people that live on islands and the local police patrol that observed the phenomenon from two places and was commenting on it over the radio.

Such a case is one of those 5%. And it is abviously difficult to explain, since it was during the day, was rather large to the naked eye, was moving and was visible to the naked eye from multiple locations and changed color too.
It could be a natural phenomenon of some sort, but it definitivley is not a mistake or a star or a plane or moon or a comet or whatever

I think such 5% percent of really intense sightings are enough to open the issue of UFO.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4265109 - 06/06/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

But if neither you nor the UFO believers know what the last 5% saw, then either way, if you said it most certainly was an alien or most certainly wasn't, you are having faith in cases where no evidence is in either person's favor.

I believe the last 5% didn't see aliens also, but not because 95% were wrong, as scientifically 1 out of 20 is still quite a percentage. The burden of proof lies on them if they claim it's a UFO, but if you then claim it was instead a weather balloon or a hoax, then the burden of proof also lies on you to substantiate your statement. Those who make statements to explain the evidence are the ones who the burden of proof rests on, correct Swamibear? This applies to both those who say it was aliens and those who say it was a hoax.

Which is why, in my opinion, it's easier to argue from a logical point of view rather than making statements about the unknown cases.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4265130 - 06/06/05 07:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

In your example, where is the extraordinary link between the orange glow and another star system?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4265146 - 06/06/05 07:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

nowhere, my example was not to prove that these must be aliens for sure, my point was that these 5% examples are proof that we are dealing with a real phenomenon that is not yet explained, and is probably something new that our current science does not know about, be it aliens or natural phenomenon, or some kind of electrical phenomenon, whatever, and not just something formiliar being misinterpreted.

p.s. what would be your first guess regarding the example I posted? I'm really currious


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4265169 - 06/06/05 07:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

There was a large orange glowing ball (not a distant spot) drifting slowly above watter between two islands, the whole event lasted for maybe half hour until the ball went away into the horizond and dissapeared as if it crashed into the watter.

A half hour is a long time. There were no boats, planes or helicopters that could have traveled a few miles to check it out?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
one-eyed willie
Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 42,409
Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4265245 - 06/06/05 07:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

a


--------------------
m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.

Edited by matt (08/31/07 05:52 PM)

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4265253 - 06/06/05 07:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

well no, you should see how long does it take to get a medical choper to get to one of those islands to help someone. Those people are pretty isolated there. The police patrol was doing that job of checking it out, that's all.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibleroby000
me
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree *DELETED* [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4265317 - 06/06/05 07:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by roby000

Reason for deletion: .

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Ravus]
    #4265345 - 06/06/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ravioli, read up on the Phoenix Lights where some 10,000 people were certain they had witnessed a mothership or something equally extraordinary when in fact it was ordinary military flares.

These witnesses ONLY erred on

1. the location (they were off by 50 miles)

2. the size (they thought it was HUGE - miles across)

3. the point of origin (non-terran)

4. the description (flare not a ship)

5. speed and direction (they fell - not moved across the city)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: roby000]
    #4265357 - 06/06/05 08:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

1. Mig doesn't stand in air above one spot and then decides to go away after a while

2. It was day


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4265421 - 06/06/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I get easily caught up in these UFO and aliens thoughts, and I do check the night sky everytime I get the chance, to see if I can spot something that people talk about.

And I have seen many things that might be mistaken for UFO's, like very fast silent planes with continuous light (not flashing) or falling meteors. But I have not deluded myself into thinking I am seeing UFO's

So here I am to you, a living proof that a belief or expectance does not have to influence perception or judging of the perception.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4265427 - 06/06/05 08:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Swimmybra, tell me:

If S claims that J's view of an unidentified object is a hoax, doesn't the burden of proof land on S?

If S claims that J's view of an unidentified object is a weather balloon despite the fact that he himself did not see it, doesn't the burden of proof land on S to prove that J's view was a weather balloon? And if S has no evidence, doesn't that mean S is taking a leap of faith in confirming to himself what J says was a weather balloon without supporting evidence?

And yes, S is for Swamibear and J is for Jiggybosoms, if you were wondering.

We can look at past cults that have committed mass suicide over UFOs, but that, Swamibear, seems to be a red herring. It's not relevant to this individual case where a mostly sane J sees an unidentified object and skeptic S assumes it's a weather balloon/ hoax without supporting evidence to back up his claims.

The same burden of proof falls on the person who would claim J's view is a hoax as would fall on the person who claims J's view is an alien. Whenever you make a claim to explain away an event, the need for evidence falls on you. Of course it'd be much easier to meet the requirements for evidence for the person saying it's a hoax, since it usually is, but that doesn't mean we can now assume everything's a hoax without supporting evidence in new cases.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Ravus]
    #4265444 - 06/06/05 08:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So Jiggy saw an UFO? I didn't know she was psychotic, gee we've got to help her somehow...


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4266405 - 06/07/05 12:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Thing is..  UFO means Unidentified Flying Object.

As in, we don't know what the hell it is.

If 95% of "UFO" sightings are false -- that is, they are known objects merely misidentified by onlookers -- that doesn't mean 5% are alien spacecraft.
It just means that the source of the "UFO" isn't known.

It could be a weather balloon that simply was launched by a private citizen!  It could be a flare someone fired off.  It could be an ultralight plane with lights on the wings (that's been done before, and was quite funny -- people thought it was a bunch of flying saucers moving in formation :laugh:).

To make the jump and assume that the remaining 5% of objects that cannot be identified MUST be ALIEN SPACECRAFT..  well, that's quite a jump.

All we can say is:  We don't know what it was.


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4266445 - 06/07/05 12:44 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The main proof against aliens visiting Earth is the speed of light. You can go on about bending space or Warp drives, but there is no evidence that such loopholes in the lightspeed problem exist. This is merely the Fi in SciFi.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4266806 - 06/07/05 06:08 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The main proof against aliens visiting Earth is the speed of light. You can go on about bending space or Warp drives, but there is no evidence that such loopholes in the lightspeed problem exist. This is merely the Fi in SciFi.


like i said in another thread, they could have grown on mars and migrated ito space and moons in artificial environments


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinealsey
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4266929 - 06/07/05 07:12 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

light speed spacecraft aren't necessary for travelling between stars. a good old rocket will do the job as long as you can keep any beings that may be inside alive and functioning.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Swami]
    #4267386 - 06/07/05 11:04 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

lol @ this thread

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Ego Death]
    #4267401 - 06/07/05 11:08 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I knew you would stop by. You can no more resist than a moth can resist a flame.  :cool:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #4267458 - 06/07/05 11:27 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mattzdope said:
Quote:

mattzdope said:
Do you believe that it's possible for other forms of intelligent life to exist off in very very distant glaxay somewhere in this infinite universe?




Swami?




Yes, i wonder why he won't answer :smirk: , he knows the most logical answer is "Yes". But that might put him in a very undesirable position...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4267503 - 06/07/05 11:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

There is no evidence of the lightspeed problem!!!

Einstein himself said it was just theory and an incomplete one at that!

In fact, all modern science points to their not being a lightspeed barrier. Check out quantum mechanics!


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Where UFO believers and skeptics agree [Re: Ego Death]
    #4269295 - 06/07/05 07:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I always get a kick when people who know just enough pop science to be dangerous show up and start making things up. :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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