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Devil's Advocate Registered: 09/24/03 Posts: 22,518 Loc: Mod not God Last seen: 1 year, 6 months |
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Quote: Heh, more great posts in this thread. I like your logic Wiccan, and I ask you to add to the n00b dosage posts in the Tripper's FAQ. In fact, please give the whole Tripper's FAQ a gander, and start adding and editing. Once you start, you'll be hooked. Christ dude, you like to write about this stuff FAR too much to stay out of the FAQ. Now, I'm gonna' look at some of the stuff you've said in here since I vanished from this discussion a few days ago. Quote: Yeah. I understand this very well. My gf has full-blown reactions to shrooms... at least 3x average. It is hard to equalize our dosage. A couple times, she has simply gone too far on accident a couple times, before we found her comfort zone. It is odd, she over-reacts more to cubes, than Mexicana Stones... If I wasn't at her side, and if she hadn't read a LOT about tripping before she tripped, I fear what could have happened. I was able to trip-sit (keep her hydrated, and in the proper setting)... her research gave her a roadmap of what to do in her mind while her ego was missing. Still, she found it quite lonely... w/o me on her plane. I do think 1.5g is not a bad dose (for 99.99% of noobs who researched the substance and trip with an experienced friend)... your 12g potency example is astronomically unlikely to happen... but it IS possible. A shitty trip due to poor set and/or setting is MUCH more likely to trigger and hidden mental issues than a ACCIDENTALLY/HEROICLY potent trip. I.5g of cultivated cubensis is the dose most n00bs will begin with. Sure, try .75g first, if you have the extra cubensis, and you wish to test your tolerance. It is smart. Still, if I am not mistaken, 1.5g is within (perhaps a little below) the Scientific parameters of a suggested first Trip level dose. I imagine a good scientist would test a SMALL amount on their subject first... before trying a trip level dose. Sadly in some places, shrooms are hard to come by... in such cases people would be better served by taking 1.5 their first time (after studying the effects of tripping and mushrooms)... Quote: 9 years of experience has taught me the same... although, I still think 1.5g is a fine n00b dose (although .75-1.5g is what I usually say when asked for a n00b dosage suggestion). I've never seen a well researched, planned and executed 1.5g mushroom trip go to hell in a handbasket. I have never seen a tripper, when subjected to such conditions, have anything but a profound experience (unless they had no reaction at all... rare [took me 3 tries!]!). I have seen many 1.5g trips go south, but not with the proper research, set and setting. Quote:Quote: I'd agree if you caught me suggesting n00bs take 5g. I'd agree if we were talking about doses over 1.5g. If someone wishes to trip w/o doing their proper research and preparation, THEY SIMPLY SHOULD NOT TRIP. Even if they want to. Otherwise, I'll maintain 1.5g is perfectly safe... and often enough, surprisingly profound. I'd agree, if I'd ever heard of a well planned and executed 1.5g trip with a good set, setting... good trip sitter... et all... going poorly. IME Even the mentally ill fare pretty fucking well in such a Trip environment. Quote:Quote: I agree but I do not see this as a negative thing. It needs more research too. What you describe could also, be considered potential human mental evolution. Some think evolution is a pretty swell thing. Some may say, you don't build a tolerance after a thumbprint, you just don't need to trip anymore. And... some people are morons. Still, further research MIGHT show it is something, other than permanent brain damage. That said, I don't want a thumbprint any time soon. Quote: I agree, you make a big choice when you choose to trip. Life changing. If you do your research and trip smart, you'll get to choose weather that change is good or bad. Otherwise, tripping's a turkey shoot. As for McKenna's heroic dose, I still do not think you have your facts straight about McKenna's heroic dose suggestion. He describes it in detail, on countless recordings. Yes, "Heroic" implies the amount of bravery required to take such an amount. I have no problem with the term. If you follow McKenna's suggestions, it is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to have the world's worst trip. It won't be a Zen-like, blissed out trip... but you will be perfectly safe (if you have the proper SET and SETTING)... n00bs should never take such a dose IMO... but in McKenna's opinion... heroic doses helped pick a tribe's shaman. Basically, the dude who liked the big dose, and wanted to talk about it, got to be shaman... the others knew better than to try such a "Heroic" thing again.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Mage Registered: 02/06/02 Posts: 86,795 |
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1.5gr in my view is the maximum n00b dose, but I'd rather have them starting out lower. I just showed you (you knew
) how even 1.5gr can go through the roof and that especially newbies cannot be predicted as to response.If a n00b wants to take reallyreallyreally much, let it be a max of 1.5gr. It keeps the dose below 20mg, above which ego death can be a frequent visitor. Once egodeath comes it DOESNT BACK OFF but the next time around will pick up where it left off in a previous trip. People do not realize that on a high dose they can encounter a problem that will come back again and again even on low doses. If you choose to not deal with problems one single high dose (like 1/8 oz) can create problems that literally will haunt you trip after trip. If you want to go all the way, straight throught Hell if you must, then take high doses like 1/8 oz. Otherwise one such dose can put a full stop to your desire to experiment further with psychedelics. Quote: What a sad, shallow, tragic image of a Shaman. I'll write this off as belonging to his more nutsy ideas. Again it stresses the need for high doses. The Best shaman is the one who does not NEED to take mushrooms to slip into the entheogenic state. A true Shaman is a leader/protector. A giver of advice and an oracle. A healer and negotiator between the worlds. It is someone who firstly and foremostly does his utmost to help and further his tribe. Mushrooms can be an incredible tool. Terence McKenna too btw ![]() I'm a shaman, certainly not the best but that is my path. And from the stance of psychedelic shamanism i can tell you the "high dose-image" is not correct. At all. A shaman summons the state of consciousness he needs. He doesnt need to take 5 grams to bring forth the effects of 5 grams, and the best don't even need mushrooms at all. A shaman studies the Mysteries to be a servant to his people. People don't realize that shaman are very, VERY common. Theres one or two on any bus. They just don't know it most of the time, led astray by society. If you look at the ones, on the shroomery, who like the high doses... Not always the best persons to tend to your wounds, are they? Shamans arent elected: they set up shop and do their thing, and the results of that decide if the tribe accepts them as shamans or not. Terence McKenna said a lot of brilliant things but also alot of foolish things and he was just as immune to the latter as we all are. Quote: Should.. I agree 100%! In the ideal world.. But i sang psalms to that already. Reality is three teenagers gobbling their first mushrooms from a baggie at the mall. If only we could prevent that. But we're trying, each in our own ways ![]() Quote: I understand what he means but it plays into the wrong mentality and thats psychedelic macho-ism! "Shall we take a heroic dose?" The thought of holding aloft your magic sword and saying By the power of Grayskull comes to mind. "Shall we take an overwhelming dose?" Then people think of being overwhelmed and trying to find the hero inside. Everyone wants to be a hero. Only few like the thought of being overwhelmed by an ancient mushroom, and these are the people you need for high doses: not those who want to become, but those who are. For many 5 grams is The Foolish Dose, in fact I think for most people. Jusdt like it takes someone out of the ordinary to stand 5gr it takes someone out of the ordinary to come away with something of true use. Now thats one or two people in the bus AT MOST, and not always they are those alienated shamans. The discussion as we are having it now basically is about "increasing something that is small" vs "decreasing something that is big". What is wisdom? Taking a massive dose and finding profundity in the egoless storm or taking twenty times less, like in my trip report, and seeking within a state more reminiscent of consensus reality? My personal discovery (which may or may not be objective truth) is a spectacular one. I find that the Entheogenic Teacher talks just as true at 12 grams (been there) as on one-fiftieth of that amount. It's only the subtility with which it is done that differs. If you put your radio on an uncomfortably low volume, you tend to develop your ears and within minutes you automatically hear it well. You are training subtility discrimination. If you put your radio uncomfortably loud your ears develop a temporary degree of being hard of hearing so that the sound is less intrusive. Within minutes it is more acceptable. You are training blocking out overload. What is wisdom? Teaching yourself to become more sensitive to subtility or more capable to handle overload? This goes way beyond psychedelics, its a basal difference in life strategy. Neither is objectively better than the other. There's another fungal Teaching molecule: ethyl alcohol. That's right, booze! You can opt for low doses, being a bit tipsy, on one end and high doses, being drunk, on the other end. Low doses are conductive to socialization and thinking somewhat within your frame of reference. High doses are conductive to insight by being overwhelmed to the point that you blurt out meaningful things because your usual guards are down. Sounds familiar? In a way you see the same pattern with Alcohol as with Psilocybin: learning through actively searching (low dose) or learning through direct experience (high dose). Teonanacatl mushrooms were the consciousness-altering sacrament of the Aztec Sun-Worshippers. Wine was the conciousness-altering sacrament of the Christians. Both had their brightness but also their darkness. Aztecs sacrificed their people to please the gods, christians killed others in holy war to please the gods. So there are more parallels between Alcohol and mushrooms than we are comfortable with. There are psychedelic wino's and booze explorers. But: there is a strong tendency to look up to highdosers and to look down at lowdosers and thats wrong in my view. Both have their merit. But for the newbie I believe 1.5gr to be the upper limit of the acceptable. The ball's in your court again, Cervantes! Anyone want to join in?
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Devil's Advocate Registered: 09/24/03 Posts: 22,518 Loc: Mod not God Last seen: 1 year, 6 months |
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Heh, we both agree about THIS: 1.5g should be the maximum n00b dose.
Well, I will say, writing about McKenna is a lost cause with you. My last post was written when I really needed sleep... But putting McKenna into soundbites is not working for you. I know you don't like the "Term" heroic... but here in the states, a "Heroic" dose sounds BIG and a little scary... not like the "Heroic" dose will start killing dragons, and signing $20 million film deals. I highly suggest you read or listen to a thing or two he actually said about "Heroic" doses... before judging TM's cannon of opinions, because I am simply tired of misrepresenting him, then watching you go apeshit because of what I have mis-said. I am simply tired of you making the SAME "Heroic" points... post after post. I do get your point, you don't like the term "Heroic". I swear that word usually does not hold the meaning you endow it with... not in McKenna's context. Since this discussion really isn't about McKenna, I have used soundites to describe him... and every time I do, you miss my point a little. McKenna didn't describe HIMSELF in soundbites... but in this thread, I have described his opinions in soundbites. McKenna was a master linguist who picked his words with great care. But really, it is not my job to provide lecture notes for McKenna 101. I would give a clearer description of TM's philosophy, but I don't want another rant about the word "Heroic". ![]() As for dosage , my most intense trips were all 1.5g and below, or 5g and above. Weird... -------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Mage Registered: 02/06/02 Posts: 86,795 |
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Hey dont get me wrong -- i've heard alot of McKenna tapes (theres a website hosting a heap of them, part of psychedeliclibrary.org i believe) but I just disagree with him on several issues. I'm not going apeshit as you suggested, and you seem to miss some nuancing in my bold statements and seem to think I'm a McKenna n00b.
McKenna would explain the antennae on ants as the result of psychedelic mushrooms.. He saw them everywhere. Then there was Timewave Zero. He presents it as science but he'd get a nobelprize if it was. Human evolution facilitated by psilocybin mushrooms? Pah-leeze mr McKenna , have some more yourself but don't connect them to everything remotely important in the history of Man.Don't be upset that I don't share your enthusiam for Terence McKenna, just like many things thats subject to individuality. You also don't seem to get my metaphors. I'm not going apeshit, trust me and I believe Terence if he were still here whould be amused by my criticism. I'd love to have talked with him for hours on end but people who tend to be immensely right on some things tend to be immensely wrong on other matters, and thats how I see it.I hope my former post offers food for further discussion beyond McKenna (whom we disagree on) and the n00b max of 1.5gr. (which we agree on) We're not Under the Teaching Tree but in the Bush of Figuring Stuff Out Together. ![]() Shall we?
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Devil's Advocate Registered: 09/24/03 Posts: 22,518 Loc: Mod not God Last seen: 1 year, 6 months |
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Fantastic, I love our battle of logic... and I'm always happy when you visit this forum.
I've gleaned MUCH from this discussion, and how to Trip-Talk more effectively (I've also, added quite a few of your points to the Tripper's FAQ 'caues it seems you are too lazy to do so yourself ). Sorry I was grumpy in my last post, but I could see a few of my major points just didn't resonate. It seems we're both missing a few nuances.I'm willing to move on from McKenna... after I make a point or two. I'd love to set the record straight, now that I realize my sound-byte approach has not worked too well in this discussion. First... if a Noob tripper has listened to or read HOURS WORTH of Terrance McKenna before they decide to trip... and they follow his suggestions, "To the letter" they would be as safe as if they read "The Psychadellic Experience" before tripping, and followed Leary's advice... or if they read this thread, and the LSD link in your signature and followed your advice... or if they read The Tripper's FAQ and followed the advice within... because we ALL emphasize SET and SETTING... which have MUCH more to do with the negative psychological aspects of tripping than a 1.25g difference in dosage. If a noob studied ANY of those sources and followed the advice within, they would be SAFE physically... and very, very, very likely, psychologically. I am becoming a bit of a McKenna snob because of how readily people have been misquoting him since his death. I don't expect you to share my enthusiasm about McKenna (which you've slightly overestimated), I just hope you will use McKenna's opinions in the proper context, if you wish to comment about them in broad strokes. This is also, why I was so grumpy in my last post. Besides, McKenna suggests a rather large dose ONLY if the psychonaut wishes to invoke a particular type of trip. I will call such heroic trips, "McKenna" trips in this thread, from this point on (I've never heard of a tragic McKenna trip! Have you?). It is worth pointing out, McKenna said MANY times, doses over 5g were wasted on him... and he did not suggest a larger dose than 5g to anyone... not that I've heard... TM even expressed your type of caution when people would say, "I decided to follow your advice, but I forgot did you say 5g or 15? So I went home and ate 15g! BOY that was intense!" The mere fact that you mention McKenna's Timewave theory (Theory!) in the context you did, suggests to me you have limited knowledge of McKenna's teachings. Perhaps you have listened to hours of those tapes, I've heard 'em all... I maintain, your knowledge seems limited. McKenna seemed to delight in talking about the timewave theory... but he never presented it as more than a cool, "What if..." It is sad McKenna couldn't predict the Loopy Legacy he would leave behind, because of his entertaining timewave theory. Now, it seems the 2012 "Suicide cult", is all he is known for. He obviously thought it was fun, silly... and uncanny, if true! McKenna wanted people to test the theory, and would readily admit and correct any flaws people could point out. Then you say McKenna claims humans evolved because of mushrooms. He doesn't, not that I've ever seen or heard. He does say tripping can invoke ESP-like communication among a group of trippers. It is easier to understand what someone means, while tripping with them, this is a universal tripping experience. He says man stopped physically evolving around the same time man started verbally communicating. McKenna imagined communication was the cornerstone of prehistoric human communities. Then he SUGGESTS the communication and tripping may be connected. PERHAPS entheogens provoked prehistoric human communication and creativity just as they do today. This is quite a logical theory but since it is based in preHISTORY, and there is no written evidence (there ARE some OLD cave drawings), it can not be claimed FACT until there is more archeological evidence... which is likely, a lost hope. It is not a far out theory that prehistoric humans had no qualms about eating magic shrooms. Pre-historic humans had a vastly differant moral structure than today's Western society. You have suggested in this thread, that tripping can harm a person's mind. McKenna SUGGESTED it may be evolution. I say we need more study, but something happens to the mind, communication and, human creativity, when you trip. Also, too much of anything is bad. To be fair, next to Shakespeare, McKenna's English is VAST and wordy... I don't follow some of what he says... I imagine he goes over quite a few teenagers heads. He is not as crazy, or as easy to summarize as many seem to think. I don't think many n00bs seek out Terrance McKenna for their tripping info (McKenna's pretty advanced)... but if they follow his advice, they will be in good hands. Respond to this post, and I'll get us back on track with my next one... I promise! Ball... court... you! -------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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eyes of theworld Registered: 11/14/02 Posts: 3,626 Loc: Terrapin Station |
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Quote: After reading this I felt I should explain the context of my comments. "Never wearing off" refers to the experiences effect on me. It doesn't mean that a thumbprint dose causes some permanent neurophysiological change in my brain. I'm not saying that it doesn't ,but that's not what I meant by that comment. I was referring to the experience. A thumbprint isn't like "cleansing the doors of perception". It's more of quickly and completely blowing the whole fucking wall to dust. The experience is so powerful and long that "never wearing off" is my referring to the fact that after that kind of experience things are never the same. Having a baby, seeing a UFO, and ext. are all experiences that change you permanently. They are as Jerry Garcia called them "before and after experiences". Your a somewhat different person after the experience. Reality is never viewed the same again.People have these experiences on much lower doses then eating 1/10th-1/20th of a gram. I'm not saying that a thumbprint dose wouldn't cause neurophysiological changes, but wanted to clarify what I meant. Quote: This is a simple tolerance issue. When you spend your life working with LSD crystal you injest so much of it purposefully and not purposefully that it starts to lose its effect. A few months of staying away from it would usually re-set me and let me have a full blown experience. Quote: What does? neither you nor I know the answer to that question. If it is toxic it would seem to become apparent in me and my friends. I have no idea how much LSD I have eaten in my life but can say it's probably a conservative estimate to say it's above a gram if not two. I have had no PET scans or f-MRI's of my brain, but at close to 40 I am getting close to a PhD in clinical psychology. I have 3 very healthy happy kids and when I graduated my undergrad degree's I was at the top of my class with honors. This is all after my LSD experience for me.My friends are mostly the same on a cognative level as I(except those who spend their day around the bong non stop). This is just all anecdotal evidence and means little. I just thought I would let you know that I'm not twitching away in some dark corner some were waiting to turn into a glass of OJ. Quote: Or you have a tolerance and need to chill out awhile. A couple of summers ago I ate 1mg.(equivalent of a ten strip) of silver crystal at Red Rocks and was blown away. I hadn't eaten LSD in a very long time and it had been awhile since my last mushroom experience so my receptors were all set for the experience. Quote: I would agree that if you can't get high off of LSD even if you give long breaks in between experiences then something is going on at a neurological level that may not be positive. Quote: I'll note that you put "personally" before your statement and that is good because this would be just personal opinion without any evidence. Just as me saying it doesn't is opinion. If they ever start testing high doser's then we'll know for sure. My view that it doesn't cause lasting damage is that I have known quite a few people that have had thumbprints and know of no one that has any noticeable negative effects on a psychological or physiological level. Hardly scientific evidence, but enough for me to form my own personal opinion. Again unless we start looking at neural plasticity and functioning of high dosers we won't know. Until then it's speculation on both sides. I have seen people that have had very negative consequences from LSD, but it was at lower doses. These folks had problems that probably would have came to surface at any dose. Quote: I would agree with this. Quote: I agree with the change, but will wait for the science to say if it's biological. Alot of times for me and others it's just the experience itself. imagine going threw life not believing in any kind of higher power. Then one day on 500mcg. of LSD in the Redwoods of northern California you become one with a undeniable energy that is so pure and full of love that it dissolves you. Biological or not that experience is going to change you and your life from that day forward. Of course psychological change will be accompanied with a biological or neurological one and vice versa. So it's hand in hand. For some it may be the experience that cause the change and for other it may be the exposure to the agent that causes change. Quote: I have a problem with heroic also. This implies a "macho' image. Those who know what it's like to curl up into a ball and be sucked through your Karma, death and dissolved into the light know that there is nothing macho about this. Macho is of the ego. This is the opposite. I do not advocate thumbprints or huge doses. Those of you that will not be in the upper LSD chain will never even have then chance and that's fine. You don't need it. You can get just as much out of psychedelics following your own path. The thumbprint isn't something that is done to give superior enlightenment to a few. It's done to say I trust and believe in this chemical so much that I'm willing to be completely at it's mercy. If I'm going to spread millions of doses of this chemical to my fellow brothers in sisters then I will show I do believe in it. That's what it is about. My more productive trips were not my thumbprint doses. Not that they weren't productive and life changing, but I have had plenty that were on far less doses. I'm still a believer in large doses, but that is just for me. I trip infrequent(2-3 times a year) and when I do I want a full experience so I take 5 grams of mushrooms and 50mg. of n,n DMT post peak. This ensures a full experience. This is just my method. Find whats best for you and go from there. My wife still prefers 200mg. of LSD and gets just as much benefits from it them my tryptamine buffet. I no longer use LSD because I want a shattering, powerful experience that requires a sizable dose. I also want to be back down in a short time(6 hours) and mushrooms and DMT do that just fine. Anyway great thread guys. Just wanted to clarify a couple of my thoughts. It's all yours now.
-------------------- Some rise Some fall Some climb To get to Terrapin!!!
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Devil's Advocate Registered: 09/24/03 Posts: 22,518 Loc: Mod not God Last seen: 1 year, 6 months |
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Damn Chinacat. it is good to see you!
Please, as with Wiccan, add your thoughts to the Tripper's FAQ. ![]() It is a shame this community has no CONSISTANT form of tripping info yet. I would gladly yield to your experience and knowledge on the subject. -------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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roving mycophagist Registered: 04/20/98 Posts: 2,191 Loc: in a van by the |
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Mckenna goes throu some ideas of the evolution in "Food of the gods".
Merely speculations but yet very interesting. The fact that low dose of psilocybin would make people more aware of differences in curves and lines was pretty interesting. Alot of what he has to say is ![]() Thanks for the report! Edited by Arp (06/24/05 07:42 PM)
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Boot Lover ![]() Registered: 10/09/04 Posts: 1,985 Last seen: 15 years, 7 months |
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Post deleted by Ewok
Reason for deletion: . -------------------- Time keeps ticking and running away And It's taking us fast to a brand new free dimension Too cool to mention well that's the intention But some of us too dame blind to see Jesus is the King Volume I Jesus is the King Volume II Shroomery MSN club I'm talking to aliens! Volcano Vap and Brain Chakras Hilary Duff!!
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spirit molecule ![]() Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 203 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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i grew my own mushshrooms from a mycobag and had no scale, so i eyeballed the dose at about 2-3 mid to small sized shrooms. later when the scale arrived, i measured at about .7g to 1g dry. to me this seemed like the perfect dose although i'm still experimenting. keep in mind different substrates affect psilocybin content as well.
i consider this a low dose, as my pupils were not dialated, and i felt fully in control of my body. euphoric effects were felt, ease of breathing, slight warping on items nearby. greater communication as well as communication within myself occured. ego was there, but things were done were selflessly so as not to bolster. looking at nature was done to admire gods' craftmanship instead of bringing joy (though joy was felt out of the simple fact of living). being able to observe life, and interactions with people in this unique way showed me the contraast of my ordinary life. it allowed me to really step into somone else (a better me) and guide me towards where i'd prefer to be. i realize it's no easy journey, maybe impossible, but moving forwards is what counts. i belive it was you, wiccan_seeker that mentioned orginary life is seen by many as a bore, waste of time, and a lack of time. compared to a psychadellicly enhanced, or spiritual person who stops for a moment to oberve the beauty or laugh at what would normally be seen as an inconvenience. i agree with this view. but i have found that when i am shrooming and talk to people who i don't know, they seem to respond to me when a lack of time response would normally come in. this could be because they sense that i am open to them or it could be my limited encounters. i also agree 1.5g should be max, but who knows how much the role of potency from individual shrooms, growing methods, and substrate play in. i would recommend a 1g dose to start. i am a new psychonaut but i think i will be sticking around for the long haul. not as a fantasy wonderland flyer, but to help enrich the quality of the life that i have been given and that of those around me. i also agree, that both high, and low doses have their place. i also believe that not all drugs can work for everyone in bringing "happiness"--which is what we likely wanted in the first place (both long and short term). i have never ventured into the deep realms of reality on psilocybin but i havn't felt a need for it yet. i feel more productive and able to learn on lower doses and unless i decide to go for a "joy ride" it'll stay that way. as to chinacats interpretation of expereience shaping change as opposed to biological, i belive this is true. thanks for sharing your thoughts guys. i enjoyed reading this topic, thanks to all who contributed! Edited by puwtrip (08/15/05 06:14 PM)
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(exaggerated, I agree)


, have some more yourself but don't connect them to everything remotely important in the history of Man.




