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Invisibleytse
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Psiloman]
    #4247322 - 06/02/05 08:51 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>If you have any tips they are mroe than welcome

I?ve confessed everything I know! (clay pot , full sun etc)
Maybe you should start NOW in order not to be late

>Do you think it could be reintroduced in the wild in our climate?
Judging by the feeling it gives growing it: Absolutely yes!

I had searched in the market and only one person identified it as agrioapiganos.
He was aware of its properties!


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)

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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: ytse]
    #4247342 - 06/02/05 09:04 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"I had searched in the market and only one person identified it as agrioapiganos.
He was aware of its properties! "

Blimey! You mean its MAO A properties or its psychedelic ones? A rather interesting individual that might be...He may as well know where it grows if he can ID it. Anywat,keep your eye on this person,and also beware of "common names" i know at least 5 commonames of it that 3 of them overlap with other plants.

Im picking up a clay pot today ,maybe i will check my basement first :laugh: I could as well post results in some days,although i dont have a camera!

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Invisibleytse
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Psiloman]
    #4247366 - 06/02/05 09:13 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I mean the psychedelic ones. I stepped into his shop with a fruited branch of espand.
Meaning a branch that had the fruit , which fruit contains the seeds.
He asked me some seeds in order to determine the inflorescence.
It seeds that he didn?t want any interference with anything psychoactive.
He told me that he stopped to merchandise kava kava, ephedra and some other psychoactive herbs!


Take a big pot ( >20cm diameter) to avoid transplanting


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)

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OfflineTinkal
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: ytse]
    #4250922 - 06/03/05 12:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I will try throwing seeds in a dry place somewhere in a mountain, and see if they will survive throught the winter.

Psiloman : You know that eventualy I WILL grow harmala! hehe

I also read about the greek name of P. harmala. (agrioapiganos)
But..the real agriopiganos is Scorpion senna

1. (Bot.), a yellow-flowered leguminous shrub (Coronilla Emerus) having a slender joined pod, like a scorpion's tail. The leaves are said to yield a dye like indigo, and to be used sometimes to adulterate senna.
(strange , this plant is also used for dying (indigo colour) like harmala for persian red)

I strongly believe that it can be reintroduced in the Greek climate (same thoughts for Hawaian baby woodrose).
Especialy in Crete and Cyprus. In Cyprus grows naturaly Trichocereus spp. and I think it will definitely grow P. harmala.
Can an army of one can do all these research and stuff? nope. Many questions though.

And now for the question of the day : If you ask a Greek carpet maker to tell you where his red colour comes for dying his carpets, what name will he tell you ?


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Tinkal]
    #4251410 - 06/03/05 05:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"In Cyprus grows naturaly Trichocereus spp. and I think it will definitely grow P. harmala. "

Same in Pelloponhsos,as well as on other places.i have seen huge CEREUS peruvianus in Athens so i say,hell there could be a pachanoi in its place!

Tinkal,as far as the "common names" are concerned dont even bother using them in ID purposes: We have such rich flora and nomeclature that one plant can be found with 10 different regional names.Some boos mention harmala as agriopiganos, others even as aphganos (which is Ruta Graveolens)

Quote:

If you ask a Greek carpet maker to tell you where his red colour comes for dying his carpets, what name will he tell you ?




He would respond : "Umm,the supermarket,it comes in a bottle and is synthetic" . I have already asked ,even traditional turkish carpet makers and they simply dont know...That art is unfortunatelly long dead,and its plant lore tends to be forgoten.By the way,nice avatar,Hyosciamus Niger i pressume?

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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Psiloman]
    #4255143 - 06/04/05 05:44 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ok ,so as of Yesterday my seeds are in a pot using advice from this thread. I have put 40 seeds instead of throwing in a handfull because i want to check germination rate. Now ,let me comment on the biological background of some observations.

It tends to be a common consensus that high temperature is needed as well as exposure in the sun. I can attribute this to two biological explanation.First higher temperatures mean in general quicker reactions within the cell ,quite similarly as in conventional chemistry when higher temperature can mean quicker reaction times. Here we are talking though of enzymes so one more factor comes in to play and this is the optimum temperature that the enzymes reach the peak of their efficacy.Here i mean enzymes that can move the giberrelic acid to the aleyrone layer of the seed so this will give the signal for germination,followed by enzymes that utilize the starch in the seed as well as enzymes that will replicate DNA (DNA polymerases),enzymes that will transcribe it to RNA as well as large scale protein synthesis in ribosomes of endoplasmatic reticulum.Yes,what we have here is a small "nanomachinery" factory working in full throttle.

The second ,about the sun, theory is that many seeds need light as well as heat in order to germinate.THis signals that the seed has been released from the pod ,its on the ground and on full exposure so "it better germinate before something eats it!"

A phenomenon also observed is the asynchronous germination of seeds! People plant it ,they see how many seeds sprout and may say that germination rate is about 10%.After a month though Surprise Surprise!!! More seeds come up and sprout, giving you a more that 10% germination total. This has a reason for being so: When a plant sets seeds its trying to ensure the survival of its offsprings.If all seeds sprout together then a sudden 3 day rain,or a livestock feeding of young sprouts would eradicate the offspring line.By spreading germination over the time you statistically ensure that even if the first plantets get destroyed by rain,the second by grazing then you will still have some offsprings sprouting later on!

The low germination rate observed is a perfect evolutionary mechanism that gives hard time to a gardener...If you notice in nature plants with low germination of seeds usually set many many seeds.On the other hand plants that set very few seeds display great germination rate even 99%! The first case plays by numbers,the second by quality.Thats an evolutionary mechanism that actually was developed to cope with offspring survival and nutritional restrictions a plant may fail.Keep in mind that few ,bigger,more fertile seeds is costly in temrs of energy allocation for the plants.

By the way,i notice the succulent looks of the leaves.Does anyone know that type of metabolism is this plant? Personally i would say either C4 or CAM cycle plant judging by its looks and the conditions it requires. CAM cycle is the crassulean acid metabolism cycle where stomata open during night (lower temperaturs,perfect for arid climates!) to take in CO2 using the enzyme RUBISCO.This CO2 is bound on other molecules to make crassulean acid that during daytime its going to be used in photosynthesis. If you have many plants here is a rather easy way to test if its a CAM plant: Midday cut a small leaf chew it and notice the taste.Then wait until night comes and in the early hours of the morning (even when the sun is ready to come up) cut a small leaf again and chew it.If its quite sour bingo! You have just tasted some crassulean acid! This observation is also mentioned in many ancient Greek texts of "Physical philosophers",philosofers that were part naturalists,part astronomers,part physicists.


Have a nice day!

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Invisibleytse
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Psiloman]
    #4255610 - 06/04/05 11:06 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Nice that you started growing! Good luck!

What you said sounds really interesting but make me feel that I have to study my homework.
When it grows a little I will definitely do the tasting experiment!


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)

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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: ytse]
    #4256905 - 06/04/05 06:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ytse said:


What you said sounds really interesting but make me feel that I have to study my homework.





Sorry about that,i wasnt trying to make it look intimidating as if im giving you "homework" (that is in the bad sense of "forced homework").Its just a little tidbit i thought should e archived on this thread,since it sheds some light on the behaviour of this plant.

Oh and by the way...i couldnt hold myself,i threw a handfull on an outdoor arid patch i can supervise to see what happens! My only worry is that my seed is pretty old...

Anyway,i will let results spek for themselves.

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Invisibleytse
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Psiloman]
    #4256974 - 06/04/05 06:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>Sorry about that,i wasnt trying to make it look intimidating as if im giving you "homework"

Oh, Dont worry . Its a pleasure!


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)

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OfflineTinkal
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: ytse]
    #4262773 - 06/06/05 07:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

At last, the first seedling showed up! The strange thing is tha it appeared in a pot that I didn't put P. harmala seeds. About 3 cm near an Arabian black Basil. Damn air!

Yes Psiloman, my avatar is one of my H. niggers' flowers. They all bloomed a week ago.


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OfflineLiveByFreedom
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Tinkal]
    #4262889 - 06/06/05 08:57 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

H. niger? Heh


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: LiveByFreedom]
    #4263121 - 06/06/05 10:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hyosciamus Niger...Solananceae Family.

Plant with ancient use from witches brews to oracle of Delphi. I think one common name is Black Henbane (niger,negro= black in latin)

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Offlineneuro
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Tinkal]
    #4265618 - 06/06/05 09:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

beh didn't read the second page.

Edited by neuro (06/06/05 09:13 PM)

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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: neuro]
    #4274669 - 06/09/05 02:14 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i just stared some seeds yesterday.
im gonna follow the info in this post, mainly cuz its the only info i could find :frown: thxz alot for posting :smile:
nice pics and a very nice job on those plants, they look awsome  :thumbup:


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OfflineLiveByFreedom
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #4275142 - 06/09/05 08:16 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LiveByFreedom said:
H. niger? Heh




Hehe, i actually said that because Tinkal called them H. niggers. Good info here guys, sounds like there's a wealth of ethnobotanicals in Greece :smile:


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Edited by LiveByFreedom (06/09/05 08:47 AM)

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Invisibleytse
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: LiveByFreedom]
    #4275174 - 06/09/05 08:40 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So, Perganum Harmala cultivation started to be a trend!
Really nice!

Tomorrow I'll post a new pic!


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)

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Invisibleytse
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: ytse]
    #4275401 - 06/09/05 10:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

im gonna follow the info in this post, mainly cuz its the only info i could find thxz alot for posting
nice pics and a very nice job on those plants, they look awsome




Thanks!
Its true that there are not so man info on the web. There is also a nice post from neuro and one more I think.

For those about to grow:
One thing that?s not mentioned is that it may take some weeks before the seedlings pop up, especially if temperatures are not high enough!


This is the latest pic. I will shoot one more using natural light.



--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)

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OfflineTinkal
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: ytse]
    #4276494 - 06/09/05 03:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This a common how to in growing Peganum harmala I found at the net:

Quote:

How to grow Syrian rue. P. harmala is a perennial, which means that given the right conditions it will live indefinitely, unlike annuals, which die after one season. Plant seeds in a jiffy pots in the late spring (they like warm weather). When they are large enough to handle, pot them up and let them grow indoors in a sunny window (or in a warm greenhouse if you have one) through their first winter (or outside if you live in warm climates). Don't overwater; these guys grow in dry areas. Plant out the following spring, late. It should get full sun and a dry spot; against a sunny south wall in temperate zones, it will grow into a three-foot high bush. The flowers are small and white; the round fruit contains many seeds.




This is the first seedling that grew near a black arabian Basil.



Expecting more to come in other pots. I think that this is the right time in Greece for Peganum harmala to grow. Please throw some seeds in your back yard!

Ytse : Will I be expecting to send me some of your harmalas throught mail ?  :wink:


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Tinkal]
    #4290309 - 06/13/05 06:57 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Update: Almost a week ago i started my "outdoor" patch as well as planted some seeds at a pot.No signs of growth yet,to tell you the truth i didnt tend much my outdoor patch,lots of other things to do.I guess its still early to say if anything will sprout, growth could become apparent one week from now! Or less optimistically 3 weeks from now!

Anyway, i thought id let you know! We need to have more people growing this plant,ethnobotanical vendros are NOT going to exist for ever,something tells me that a wave of "ayahuasca analogue" banning is coming in fast pace! First signs in France,and now in Lousiana!

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Invisibleytse
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Re: Notes on Growing Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) [Re: Psiloman]
    #4294361 - 06/14/05 05:18 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Picture update:


While repotting I threw a few more seeds.
The old ones seem happy and the new ones have poped up!

(BTW my gallery is enriched!check it out)


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)

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