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Invisibledorkus
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A course in consciousness
    #4262661 - 06/06/05 07:21 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/

"For our purposes in this section, we shall consider a version of idealism, called monistic idealism, which states that consciousness and only consciousness is fundamental and primary. Everything, including all matter and every mind, exists within, and is part of, this consciousness. From this point of view, matter is an emergent feature, or epiphenomenon, of consciousness, rather than the reverse as in materialism. There are many aspects in the interpretation of quantum theory that can be explained in this philosophy, but which are the sources of perplexing paradox in a materialist or dualist philosophy.

We shall see that, according to the teaching of nonduality, Reality is not:
1. What you have been told it is.
2. What you think it is.
3. What you believe it to be.
4. What you want it to be.
5. What you think it should be.

There is only one consciousness. Our consciousness is nonlocal consciousness. My consciousness is identical to your consciousness. Only the contents are different. The entities that we falsely think we are result from identification of this consciousness with a concept in the conditioned mind."

:smile:


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: dorkus]
    #4262668 - 06/06/05 07:33 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

On death:

All sages attempt to answer the seekers' question, "Where was 'I' before the birth of the body?", and, "Where will 'I' be after the body dies?"  Ramesh Balsekar (whose books, Your Head in the Tiger?s Mouth (1998) and Who Cares? (1999), are excellent summaries of his teaching) teaches that, when the body dies, Consciousness simply disidentifies from it (see also Ramesh's book, A Net of Jewels (1996), meditations for April 13 and June 10).  Indeed, the death of the body is the result of Consciousness disidentifying from it.  Since there was no separate ?I? before death, there is none after death, so there is no entity to continue after death.  Thus, there is neither an after-death nor a before-death state for the ?I? since it has never existed in the first place.  Without a body there is only pure unmanifest Consciousness.

Since there never is a separate "I", there can be no entity either to incarnate or to reincarnate. Ramesh explains the existence of individual characteristics of the body-mind organism as a result of conditioning and heredity (see also Section 5.14).  [Note:  Ramesh says that heredity includes differences projected from the "pool" of consciousness (see Section 8.3) as well as genetic differences.  (The "pool" is a concept that cannot be verified; see Sections 8.4, 8.5.)  Ramesh uses this concept to try to explain the origin of body-minds that are strikingly similar to previous ones, as in the concept of reincarnation.  From the "pool", he says the body-mind may inherit characteristics from previous body-minds, but there is no previous lifetime of the "I" since there is no "I".] 

Some sages teach that, in the absence of the body, Consciousness is still aware of itself. The evidence they cite is an awareness that they say exists during deep (dreamless) sleep. However, note that, in the February 4 meditation in A Net of Jewels (1996), Ramesh states,

"The original state of the Noumenon is one where we do not even know of our beingness."

This is the state before birth and after death.  Since there is no body in this state, there is only Noumenon.  This state is not identical with the states in dreamless sleep, under anesthesia, or while comatose, because in those states there is still rudimentary sentience associated with the brainstem (as seen by an outside observer).  Dreamless sleep, anesthesia, and coma are examples of the presence of absence as depicted in Figure 1.  These are not the same as death because, after the body dies and before it was born, there is a double absence--the absence of the presence of the manifestation and the absence of the absence of the manifestation.  The only way to describe this state is that it is neither presence (waking) nor absence (sleep). 

Although all religions attempt to give some picture of what we will be after death, they are all based on ego fears and desires rather than on personal experience.  The ego may insist that it will continue to exist after the death of the body, but in so doing, it defies the direct evidence of everyone's disappearance during deep sleep or anesthesia.  If the reader cares to imagine some picture of personal life before birth and after death, he or she should be aware that there never can be any kind of direct proof of such states.  Some people think that thought can exist without a body, so that the "I" concept (the soul) may prevail after the death of the body.  But if that state cannot be verified, how can it be said to have existed at all (see Section 9.4)? 

After-death states, such as those described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, by necessity are intuited or cognized by a living person, so the reliability and motives of that person must be considered. Any intense, personal experience, such as a near-death experience, cannot be proof because such experiences by definition and necessity are not death experiences. The appearance of discarnate entities, such as spiritual guides, deceased relatives, or religious figures, are also not proof because they always appear in living body-mind organisms and therefore could merely be mental phenomena. 

Because near-death and out-of-body experiences require the presence of a brain, they cannot reflect what happens after death.  In fact, out-of-body experiences can even be produced at will by electrically stimulating the right angular gyrus region of the brain (see "Stimulating own-body perceptions", Blanke, Ortigue, Landis, and Seeck, Nature, 419 (2002) 269 - 270). 

In the April 7 meditation of A Net of Jewels (1996), Ramesh says:

"There are many reports of what are popularly considered 'death-experiences', which are mistaken as evidence of what happens after death.  These are in fact only hallucinations experienced by the ego arising from stimulation of certain centers of the brain before, not after, the completion of the death process.  Most of the mystical phenomena recorded as yogic experience are of the same order, movements in consciousness experienced by the ego.  But when man finally surrenders his miserable egoic individuality, there is no experience of anything.  He is the Totality itself."

In the April 4 meditation of the same book, Ramesh says: 

"My relative absence is my absolute presence.  The moment of death will be the moment of highest ecstasy, the last sensorial perception of the psychosomatic apparatus."

On p. 181 of I Am That (1984), Nisargadatta (Ramesh's guru) says,

"Everybody dies as he lives. I am not afraid of death, because I am not afraid of life. I live a happy life and shall die a happy death. Misery is to be born, not to die."

:wink:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: dorkus]
    #4262699 - 06/06/05 08:20 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

the first post seems excellent to me.
the second, while pursuing these burning questions of people of all cultures, is a bit of a walk around the park; which is not a bad idea when the dog has been cooped up all night.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4262715 - 06/06/05 08:49 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

ja, oki, maybe you're right. Did you check out link? I just wanted to bring forth some teasers.

I really like chapter 13.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: dorkus]
    #4262914 - 06/06/05 11:05 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

lots to like, but it presents a separation of mind and body:

in the days before the camera, it would have been assumed that the ability to dream up spaces or to recall anything larger than a body meant that the mind was obviously in/from a space larger than that recalled thing, otherwise how could it contain the recalled thing.

how can the grand canyon be contained in this tiny brain in this tiny body, and so much more too!

we are slowly coming to grips with the nature of sensation and perception and the idea that image is retained as engram ( a reduction to key relationships) and that this engram can enflower from a few related keys, and as it unfolds more details emerge ( not necessarily the original details but compatible ones to the whole memory picture )

where the memories are stored and unfold is like the screen of the electronic cameras which can portray either live video or playback sequences (and mind can merge the two and more)

for this mind screen to work, does not require another dimension to abide in or accommodate storace of related keys. But there did not used to be tiny electronc cameras with screens in the old days, we cannot blame them for coming up with such logic.

further to this cap 13 gets on to ideals which does have some overlay with engrams, or essential keys. Intuitively both aspects are required in any discussion of memory and consciousness, but IMO the pre-camera philosophies of mind spaces are foggy maps at best.


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: dorkus]
    #4263280 - 06/06/05 01:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Your post reminded me of some important concepts of consciousness as developed by Ken Wilber as far back as his first book The Atman Project: A Transpersonal View of Human Development. Perhaps Wilber's most important concept is his "Pre-Post Fallacy" wherein many thinkers have made many errors, from philosophers (East and West) to psychoanalysts to psychologist and psychiatrists.

It was psychoanalytic writer Norman O. Brown who Wilber pointed out had said that 'the id was Noumenal Reality itself,' in other words the 'ground unconscious' prior to the birth of the ego, because it too exists in a state of timelessness, became equated with transpersonal (trans-ego) states which are ALSO timeless in nature. This 'Pre-Trans Fallacy is precisely this, equating two very different realities because of the commonality of timelessness.

"That pre-temporal id cannot in any way be equated with trans-temporal states - the difference is as vast as between, say, rocks and humans or humans and gods; and the trans-temporal realm most certainly cannot be reduced to the the pre-temporal....The id is timeless - but it is pre-temporal. God is timeless - but it is trans-temporal. My own opinion is that psychoanalysis (and orthodox psychiatry and psychology), must recognize this incredible difference, and thus cease identifying God and id simply because both are outside of linear time. Might as well equate rocks and rockets because they both lack propellers."

He goes on to say,

"The same holds true for every other central characteristic of the mystic union versus the infantile oceanic state. The infant-pleromatic fusion is pre-subject/object differentiation, which means the infant cannot distinguish subject from object. But the mystic union (sahaj samadhi) is trans-subject/object, which means that it transcends subject and object, while remaining perfectly aware of that conventional duality, much as language transcends sensory reality without obliterating it. To say that trans-dual samadhi is really regression to pre-dual narcissism is precisely to say that a forest is really regression to an acorn." Pp. 77-79

Another common example of the Pre-Trans Fallacy is the equation of the 'Turiya' [Ultimate Reality] state with dreamless or delta wave sleep. Such statements can only be made by individuals who have not experienced transpersonal/transrational states and have succumbed to the false reasoning that I've illustrated above.

Thanks for posting. Of the following: "My relative absence is my absolute presence. The moment of death will be the moment of highest ecstasy, the last sensorial perception of the psychosomatic apparatus." - I heartily agree with the first part, but would qualify the second part, based on my intuition.

The "highest ecstasy" will not be through or due to the final parting with our psychosomatic "apparatus" but will be through the Clear Realization that we've ALWAYS been at home - that we're not going anywhere at all (of course, this is not a linear thought but a Realization). The moment will paradoxically be Eternal, and there will NOT be a sense of loss of our mind-body or the life it lived (and which just evaporated from consciousness completely). Every worldly joy of homecoming, of reunion, of love ever experienced while alive was derived from this Ultimate State. We mistakenly attributed these heart-warming, joyful and ecstatic unions and reunions to one another, but it was really from Heaven itself.

Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4263355 - 06/06/05 02:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hah! talk about coincidence...i was having some thoughts along similar lines today at work. In spare moments, i was carrying on my thoughts that began awhile ago but i have only recently been able to give shape to.
i have come to think that
consciousness = pure energy
at least.


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: newjon]
    #4263424 - 06/06/05 02:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

And i was wrong in the other thread, where i mentioned an idea about circles - and threads - of consciousness. They may be circles of ego, or something, i'm not sure now. I'll have to read more on this


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4263441 - 06/06/05 02:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

one can say less about the noumenal and get closer to what it means.
one can say less about the experience of death and be more honest about what one knows.

both extremes mark limits of our "lifelines", and if the timebase gets skewed beyond those limits into infinite ecstatic or not falls into a speculative tease and extrapolations.

viewed in a different way, the lifeline itself is merely historic (the illusory dream of self born here, named thus, entitled to this, suffering that and died then), while real life is experienced fleetingly in moments which in themselves encompass all the mystery from both extremes.


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4263608 - 06/06/05 03:08 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i am currently of the opinion that, on the lines of there being a universal consciousness, whilst the different experiences it...experiences can overlap, each individual experience, in actuality, happens at a different angle to the saem point in time (or possibly, space-time). i don't mean time as our perception of it, which for example every currently living thing appears to me to be living "at the same time" as me. It IS, but at a different angle (however slight that may be for any one particular living thing).
So, that would mean, all life is merely one consciousness experiencing itself at the same point in time but from all possible perspectives.


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4263640 - 06/06/05 03:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

one can say less about the noumenal and get closer to what it means.
one can say less about the experience of death and be more honest about what one knows.

Yes, true on both, however, these very tenuous insights and intuitions are for me the 'springboard' of faith. "Unless ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Like the Greek word 'psyche' which translates as 'soul' and 'butterfly,' my intuition tells me that all I work at becoming as a conscious being, my corpse will be as a chrysalis, and something wonderful will come after. I refuse to be a materialist. The material universe had a purely spiritual origin in GOD (faith again), transformed down from the Incomprehensible through living realms far more subtle and hence invisible to our senses, to the physical universe and 'below' to Infernal realms (faith some more, bolstered by Jewish, Christian, Hindu and Buddhist traditions - not merely to dispel fear or explain the inexplicable, but for reasons like my own. I belong to a universal community of faith).

BTW, redgreenvines, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, uh, spirit - both  :wink:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4263741 - 06/06/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i worked out my thoughts have been headed...
to get the universal consciousness, you'd need just a single, smallest, indivisible "unit" of energy caught inside something from which energy cannot escape.
Am i right in thinking a black hole, as we understand it, is like that? no energy can escape from "within" the black hole? if that's the case, could not consciousness simply be such an indivisible "unit" of energy caught within a black hole?


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4263845 - 06/06/05 03:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

note the spiral personal history provided as explanation for complexity:
Quote:

...(elipsis being deletion of content)... are for me the 'springboard' of faith. ...(elipsis being deletion of content)... my intuition tells me that all I work at becoming as a conscious being, my corpse will be as a chrysalis, and something wonderful will come after. I refuse to be a materialist. ...(elipsis being deletion of content)... bolstered by Jewish, Christian, Hindu and Buddhist traditions - not merely to dispel fear or explain the inexplicable, but for reasons like my own. I belong to a universal community of faith).





which is cool, and it has been presented very convincingly as the only path you could have followed, or would have followed, and still been you - yourself, your history etc. quite nice, really, like your shrine filled of thankas and talismans and symbols that you can use to reconnect with the infinite, or with them teach others to do it too, at least fining one with low cultural resistance.

with all you now know from all your forays into the thicket, when you don your mystical robes, I ask you this, do you want the infinite now, or later? is it this life, this moment, this ecstacy, this hello-goodbye?


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4264444 - 06/06/05 06:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

For you friend, I offer these words from my late teacher, Lama Anagarika Govinda [Anangavajra Khamsum-Wangchuk] as an answer to your question concerning the unconditioned and the conditioned from Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism: According to the Esoteric Teachings of the Great Mantra OM MANI PADME HUM:

"In the experience of OM, man opens himself, goes beyond himself, liberates himself, by breaking through the narrow confines of egohood or self-imposed limitation, and thus he becomes one with the All, with the Infinite. If he remained in this state, there would be an end of his existence as an individual, as a living, thinking and experiencing being. He would also have attained perfect immobility, passivity, emotionlessness, and insensitivity with regard to all differentiation and individuality not only within, but also outside himself, i.e., with regard to all living and suffering beings....

OM is the ascent towards universality, HUM the descent of the state of universality into the depth of the human heart. HUM cannot be without OM. But HUM is more than OM: it is the Middle Way which neither gets lost in the finite nor in the infinite, which is neither attached to the one nor to the other extreme....OM is the infinite, but HUM is the infinite in the finite, the eternal in the temporal, the timeless in the moment, the unconditioned in the conditioned, the formless as basis of all form, the transcendental in the ephemeral....

He has returned from the experience of universality - from the sacred all-consuming and purifying flame of OM - to the human plane, without losing the consciousness of completeness, the knowledge of the unity of man and cosmos. And thus in the depth of his heart the primordial sound of Reality is transferred into the sound of the cosmic-human mystery (purified through suffering and compassion) which reverberates through...the sacred seed-syllable HUM....We, therefore, must have passed through the experience of OM in order to reach and to understand the still deeper experience of HUM...In the OM we open ourselves, in the HUM we give ourselves. OM is the door of knowledge, HUM is the realization of this knowledge in life." pp. 129-131


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4264463 - 06/06/05 06:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

y'know, ever-so-slowly, i'm beginning to see the bigger patterns emerging even in religion and spirituality...i have no idea where it's going to take me. But I sure want to find out =+)


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: newjon]
    #4265393 - 06/06/05 10:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A fine attitude indeed!


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4266320 - 06/07/05 02:17 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

even though you know the words
still you do prefer to HUM
good.


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4267191 - 06/07/05 11:47 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

As in HUM[an]  :wink:

http://www.dharma-haven.org/tibetan/meaning-of-om-mani-padme-hung.htm

Just e-mail ordered this table-top prayer wheel. Think I'll keep it within arm's easy reach next to the monitor.



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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4267296 - 06/07/05 12:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you, oldtimers. I really appreciate the feedback and differing trails. :thumbup:

Much to ponder now. :wink:


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Re: A course in consciousness [Re: dorkus]
    #4267324 - 06/07/05 12:41 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah...ponder how old you're gonna get calling us "oldtimers."


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