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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Older cakes are not more potent...
    #4258730 - 06/05/05 05:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Im surpris


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Edited by Zen Peddler (02/02/07 06:12 AM)


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OfflineDarkie
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Re: Older cakes are not more potent... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4262985 - 06/06/05 11:40 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

All i know is if i case right after the rye finishes colonizing then the shrooms are pretty tame. But whenever i let the jars sit around for a couple extra weeks, the cacophores get a lot of attention from my friends.
The best explaination i have heard is that the mycelia has extra time to work on breaking down the carbohydrates in the substrate. The magic compounds seem to be a product of this metabolization. Since the compounds never seem to be reasorped or metabolized further, they build up over time.


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: Older cakes are not more potent... [Re: Darkie]
    #4263017 - 06/06/05 11:58 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

i had made cold tea outta cakes that had flushed once, and didnt get any effects, but then some asshole i had bought shrooms from a long time ago threw in pieces of the cake into the bag to add weight, so i made a tea outta that and gotten a level 3 trip. so its anyones guess as to whether the actuall mycellium contains more psilocybin as it ages.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Older cakes are not more potent... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4263606 - 06/06/05 03:08 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bluemeanie said:
Im surprised about this new one - better than the usual rumours like mushroom potency decreases after the veil breaks (when there is not one piece of evidence in any study that has ever demonstrated this fact).




Don't most scientific advances start out as theories brought from anecdotal evidence, and they get tested? Isn't that what is being done? Aren't you being as ignorant as the myth-spreaders by saying that its not true, with no evidence? Also, thanks for not answering my detailed questions in the "A theory about potency" thread. Also, check www.dictionary.com to see what theory means. Neat-o!
Quote:


Just to put the idea that older cakes are some how more potent into context, are we talking about the potency of the mycelia itself or are we talking about the mushrooms that this mycelia is producing?




Unless you think that a cake is a mushroom, it would seem that people saying "CAKE" would mean... oh gees, let me think. Oh I got it, a cake! If they wanted to say mushrooms, I bet they'd use a word like... eh.. "mushrooms"?
Quote:


Secondly, these alkaloids represent the mycelia's conversion of tryptophan precursors in the substrate. As the mycelia uses the content of tryptophan in the substrate, the converted alkaloids would also diminish.




This sounds like you are countering one possible theory with unproven theory yourself. Can you show what tryptophan precursors (Again, I have NO idea why you say that, as we aren't worried about precursors to tryptophan, we are concerned with precursors that ARE tryptophan, and 4-ho-dmt precursors) are present? Their are so many holes in this line of thinking I'll need a new keyboard to type them all out.

1) If a casing was incubated longer than regular, lets say a few weeks longer, wouldn't that mean that more enzymatic action was occuring as the mycelia continued to devour the substrate? Your comment that "...
As the mycelia uses the content of tryptophan in the substrate, the converted alkaloids would also diminish." is totally illogical. If tryptophan is being converted into psilocybin, wouldn't that mean that their was MORE psilocybin? I mean, thats what precursors are, if precursors are being used, then they produce something, right? So how would you say "The more precursors that are used to make alkaloids, the less alkaloids their are"?

More to come if you actually bother to reply to this.
Quote:


If we are talking about mycelia, then there are other problems. Gartz demonstrated that the mycelia of cubensis was significantly less than the fruit bodies that formed from this mycelia.



We are talking about the decarboxylation of tryptophan and the hydroxylation of these compounds to form psychoactive compounds. If the mycelia produces more of these compounds, then the theory is that the mushrooms produced from this would have higher psilocybin/psilocin content.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Older cakes are not more potent... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4263611 - 06/06/05 03:09 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Also, if you could provide some evidence that backs up this title, that would be great. You went from bitching about myths that are made to making one of your own. The logic involved in "Well, this sounds like a myth, so I'll state, without proof, that the exact opposite is true" is somewhat faulty.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Older cakes are not more potent... [Re: SoopaX]
    #4263751 - 06/06/05 03:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

A mushroom starts producing actives and produces them while its alive.

If all of a sudden people now want to say "well actually I think it stops producing actives at some point in its life"...then IMO, burden of proof lies within the group that is challanging the already accepted, and perfectly logical idea. Why would mushrooms stop producing actives?

Sure you could reverse the question to me, why wouldnt mushrooms stop producing actives...but I can answer. Because they're still alive. Theres no indication of anything within the mushroom changing chemically...there is just an idea that after the veil breaks potency stops.

Thats not really what this thread is about...but it always annoys me when people want to try and change an idea that was generally accepted as being true, and logically makes sense...then tries to put the burden of proof on the people who believe things dont up and just stop being made for no reason.

The older mycelium thing, I dont really believe is true....but I think with this it could really be either way. The theory sounds ok (takes more time to digest the food) but from everything that everyone else has done with research, I think this would have been noticed before. And I'm talking people who have grown for decades too, not just a year or two, or even less. You'd think those growing for decades would notice these things, but I havnt seen one who I know whos been rowing for that long, who believes the MYCELIUM is more potent the older it gets (after a couple days past 10% colonization. You can hold on to jars and they do continue to change, and solidify and harden after 100% colonization....but only for a few days..then the mass doesnt appear to really change much, indicating it broke it down.

And I can tell you for SURE, that I get POTENT ass mushrooms EVERY time I do a casing, no matter how fresh the spawn, or substrate is.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Older cakes are not more potent... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4263784 - 06/06/05 03:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So the next time you do your casings, let one tray incubate for an extra month, then fruit it. See if you are on the side of anecdotal evidence.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Older cakes are not more potent... [Re: SoopaX]
    #4263822 - 06/06/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I have, which is why I mentioned noting no difference. However nothing was measured...only people ate them and there have been no noticable potency fluctuations...unless strain, substrate or condidtions are different. Thats why I'm unsure though...that of course is not enough testing to be anything more.

I have waited anywhere from 3 days after spawning, to 6 weeks. I've used jars a number of times after 2 months in the incubator and after 6 months in the fridge...some have gone 6 months in the fridge, then grain to grain to other jars, then spawned to poo...so they were colonizing for another month after sitting 6 in the fridge after. I've done it with cubies, and Tamps...Tampanensis it DID help...but I attribute that to the myclium still changing after that long and stones growing (noticed more fruits when more stones in the substrate). I have Pan Cyan jars almost 2 months in the incubator now that will be cased tonight as well (along with some more cubies done at the same time).


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
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Re: Older cakes are not more potent... [Re: SoopaX]
    #4282622 - 06/11/05 08:03 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

mate you really spent some time writting that - I didnt want you to lose sleep or anything - obviously your ego is so fragile, that my post has dented it significantly.

'Don't most scientific advances start out as theories brought from anecdotal evidence, and they get tested? Isn't that what is being done? Aren't you being as ignorant as the myth-spreaders by saying that its not true, with no evidence? Also, thanks for not answering my detailed questions in the "A theory about potency" thread. Also, check www.dictionary.com to see what theory means. Neat-o!'

Because i know its bullshit, and unlike you i have grown a lot of cubies.

'Unless you think that a cake is a mushroom, it would seem that people saying "CAKE" would mean... oh gees, let me think. Oh I got it, a cake! If they wanted to say mushrooms, I bet they'd use a word like... eh.. "mushrooms"?'

...yawn...

'This sounds like you are countering one possible theory with unproven theory yourself. Can you show what tryptophan precursors (Again, I have NO idea why you say that, as we aren't worried about precursors to tryptophan, we are concerned with precursors that ARE tryptophan, and 4-ho-dmt precursors) are present? Their are so many holes in this line of thinking I'll need a new keyboard to type them all out.

1) If a casing was incubated longer than regular, lets say a few weeks longer, wouldn't that mean that more enzymatic action was occuring as the mycelia continued to devour the substrate? Your comment that "...
As the mycelia uses the content of tryptophan in the substrate, the converted alkaloids would also diminish." is totally illogical. If tryptophan is being converted into psilocybin, wouldn't that mean that their was MORE psilocybin? I mean, thats what precursors are, if precursors are being used, then they produce something, right? So how would you say "The more precursors that are used to make alkaloids, the less alkaloids their are"?'

Fuck mate - are your retarded? Your argument was that later flushes would be more potent than earlier ones - trying to use a study to back this up that you obviously havent read or you would be aware that it doesnt back it up at all...
The psilocybin would probably diminish when you break the fucking mushroom off - the mycelia would have less resources to use to create alkaloids for the next flush.

'We are talking about the decarboxylation of tryptophan and the hydroxylation of these compounds to form psychoactive compounds. If the mycelia produces more of these compounds, then the theory is that the mushrooms produced from this would have higher psilocybin/psilocin content. '

wow you can use big words - does that mean you have to be right?

'Also, if you could provide some evidence that backs up this title, that would be great. You went from bitching about myths that are made to making one of your own. The logic involved in "Well, this sounds like a myth, so I'll state, without proof, that the exact opposite is true" is somewhat faulty. '

EVERY STUDY THAT HAS COMPARED CUBENSIS POTENCY HAS NOT DEMONSTRATED AN INCREASE IN POTENCY between earlier and later flushes. Even the study that you quoted to try and pretend you'd read...

And Scatmanrav- let it incubate for six weeks or two months - the potency will be the same guaranteed - and if you want anecdotal evidence try asking any one here who has actually grown more than five jars - i can tell you that after 100+ grows ive never noticed this - and no one who i respect has ever mentioned this before.
But Soopax knows better.



'


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Rye Grain

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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