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OfflineSeussA
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Why should I not pollute?
    #4251465 - 06/03/05 08:49 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I was talking with an environmental fruitcake the other day and he got me thinking. Why shouldn't I pollute? He was trying to convince me that I am a bad person because I drive a car causing pollution. He kept telling me that I should be concerned for the future of the planet and showing me how we are destroying the planet and that there will be nothing left in a few hundred years. That I need to change my evil ways today so that my children will have a place to live.

But... I don't have any children. I am old enough now that it is very unlikely that I will ever have any children. I'm an only child and the last one in my family to carry on the family name. In other words, I don't plan to leave anything behind when I die. So why should I care if the planet lives on after I do or not? Why should I not have a car so that somebody elses children have a nice clean place to live in the future after I am dead?

Now I am not talking about major pollution here that will come back to haunt me while I am still living. But why should I care about greenhouse gasses or global warming if the effects of such aren't going to become a huge problem until after I am dead?


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251473 - 06/03/05 08:57 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

What would you say if I asked you why you should care about people at all?





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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251483 - 06/03/05 09:06 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Ya other people mean nothing.  Where do you live I'll come end your life right now, since it really doesn't matter..... :rolleyes:


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: barfightlard]
    #4251534 - 06/03/05 09:42 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm looking for arguments here, not judgement. Help me out, please. If I am going to die and leave nothing behind, then why should I care if I create longterm pollution problems or not?

(I often argue as the devil's advocate. Just because I argue a position does not mean that I agree with it. I have always felt that if a person cannot argue both sides of a debate, then the person does not understand the issue well enough to argue either side of the debate.)


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InvisibleIrishdrunk
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251568 - 06/03/05 10:04 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I don't worry about it.  Pollute and litter all you want man, I'm sure they will find us a solution for it in a few hundred years, so we are just wasting our time caring.  Plus once we really get spacebound we will have lots of planets to choose from. :mushroom2:


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:awesome:


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251584 - 06/03/05 10:10 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

This argument can be applied to anything, as bellylard an Learyfan already implied. Why do anything at all. I made a post in S&P yesterday saying that exact thing. To be honest, there's no point in polluting or not polluting. If pollution is reduced some plant and animal life lasts a while longer and that's it. But does that really matter in the grand scheme of things? (I'm not being sarcastic here) To be honest, there's no point to anything in life, and it whether one person pollutes or a billion people pollute it doesn't matter. It doesn't change anything, ultimately. So do whatever the fuck you want.


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OfflineDoom
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251587 - 06/03/05 10:11 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I was talking with an environmental fruitcake the other day and he got me thinking. Why shouldn't I pollute? He was trying to convince me that I am a bad person because I drive a car causing pollution. He kept telling me that I should be concerned for the future of the planet and showing me how we are destroying the planet and that there will be nothing left in a few hundred years. That I need to change my evil ways today so that my children will have a place to live.

But... I don't have any children. I am old enough now that it is very unlikely that I will ever have any children. I'm an only child and the last one in my family to carry on the family name. In other words, I don't plan to leave anything behind when I die. So why should I care if the planet lives on after I do or not? Why should I not have a car so that somebody elses children have a nice clean place to live in the future after I am dead?

Now I am not talking about major pollution here that will come back to haunt me while I am still living. But why should I care about greenhouse gasses or global warming if the effects of such aren't going to become a huge problem until after I am dead?




do you really feel this isolated from the world around you>? and if so, why>?


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251706 - 06/03/05 11:27 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I really respect you as a person Seuss, but I think the answers you are looking for are not political at all.


Edited by Anisotropic (06/03/05 11:27 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251713 - 06/03/05 11:28 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Well, if all you're looking out for is your self-interest, then I can't think of a reason not to pollute. However, I try to be courteous towards others, even if they haven't been born yet.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251751 - 06/03/05 11:46 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

you should consider curtailing your pollution for the
same reasons you flush your toilet and put your
trash in the trash can...

you don't want to leave a bunch of shit lying around
that immediately affects your health or comfort or
that of your friends and neighbors long term.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: afoaf]
    #4251798 - 06/03/05 12:10 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

you should consider curtailing your pollution for the
same reasons you flush your toilet and put your
trash in the trash can...




A voice of reason. I'm not talking about short term pollution. I'm not going to dump mercury in the stream that I get my drinking water from. I'm talking long term pollution. Radioactive waste that is going to sit in a pool cooling for the next fifty years before they can move it, etc.

Do I have a responsibility to save the planet for future generations when I am not contributing to these future generations? Yes, it is shallow. Yes, it is short sighted. Aside from it being morally wrong, why should I care?

> I really respect you as a person Seuss, but I think the answers you are looking for are not political at all.

I'm simply trying to understand myself (and the way the world works) a bit better. I am very aware of the pollution I create and I try very hard to reduce my waste and preserve the planet. But, I am not going to have children and I am not going to leave anybody behind to suffer through the mess we are making. With this in mind, why do I still feel obligated to be mindful of the pollution I create? Is it simply the right thing to do, or are there other reasons?

If you want to turn this into a more politcal debate, then why should China care about the pollution they put out if it all lands on America. In the same sense, why should America care about the pollution it creates if it all lands on Europe. (I know the answers to these, just trying to make my point...)

I guess, in a nutshell, I am asking why worry about the effects of something when the effects are bad for somebody else?

Hmmm... perhaps you are right, Anisotropic, and this should have been posted in S&P instead? If a mod agree's, feel free to move the post.


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OfflineMycoJunkie
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: afoaf]
    #4251837 - 06/03/05 12:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Why should you not pollute?
- Well, why don't we start with why should you pollute? Because you're lazy? Maybe you're ignorant.  Maybe you're just a statistic who doesn't give a damn about humanity.  Okay, okay, thats all a given at this point.  (By the way, no offense :smile: )  Perhaps you think its useless, seeing as there are at LEAST 6 billion other people in this world who don't give a flying fuck.  Just reasons? I think not.

- Lets consider for a moment, the unimaginably nearly-infinate universe.  Now, lets calculate the amount of planets out there, and then the amount that sustains life.  Its safe to say, that life is an incredibly rare phenomenon.  We humans, of all the lifeforms on this planet, are the only ones endangering not only ourselves, but all other life along with us.  Why? Because we pollute.  We waste.  WE JUST DON'T GIVE A FUCK in general.  That pretty much sums up the general consensus of Humanity's opinion on why not to pollute.

- Now, let's marinate on a fact for a moment: one fifth of the world's land mass is desert.  Heres another one to think about: the human population of the earth has doubled in the last 35 years.  Do you think theres any chance of that happening again? I certainly do.  There could be 12 billion people living with us in about 35-50 years.  Scary, eh?  You might hope to be dead by then, but I eat healthy and work out daily for a reason: I want to live to see the future, and I hope that it isn't something tantamount to a nuclear fallout even if one hasn't occured.

- Now lets get back to that desert concept.  Vast tracts of sterile, sand covered lands, essentially useless.  The Sahara, The Arabian, The Takla Makan-Gobi - AKA the Gobi/Mongolian desert, the Namib and Kalahari deserts of Southern Africa, The Australian? North American? The list goes on.  And guess what!!
- It's going to keep going on, because here is another interesting fact: the amount of desert land of the earth expands every day, its essentially a snowball effect.  More and more water is being pumped out of desert areas, and its inhabitants forced to leave.  The Sahara's borders alone expand by 30 miles every year IN ALL DIRECTIONS!

- Why shouldnt you pollute again? Well, at the moment, lets say because theres a high probababilty that eventually all of the carbon residues, fuels, and oils will eventually seep into various aquafers and water reserves.
- Not only that, but the green house effect.  There's too much carbon dioxide, methane, carbon monoxide, nitrogen, and various other green-house gases, which the majority of are being trapped in the atmosphere and cycled around.  What does this mean for you? It means that the earth is heating up.  Now, this might not be too big of a deal, at least when you're living in say... Northern New England, however if you're anywhere around northern africa, where ground temperatures already easily reach 140 degrees F... Well, thats going to suck some sweaty balls then, isnt it?  I think so, especially when I consider the fact that a human brain begins to boil at 120` F.

- How about a little place called... Europe.  Ahh yes.. Say.. Isn't Europe situated just above Northern Africa? The same continent which contains 3 of the world's top 15 larges deserts?  And why gee... Aren't those deserts expanding at a rate unparalleled by any time in human history?
- Lets combine a 130` F sahara with the greenhouse gases of 9 billion people.  Any possibility the deserts of the world will expand by a rate 50% faster than when the earth sustained only 6 billion abominations?  If you think about it, thats really what we are to other life forms on earth.  We're abominations, shamefully ignorant and wasteful creatures.  Do you enjoy being an abomination? Does it make you feel the least bit guilty that you're contributing to the proven effects of the GreenHouse gas theory?
- Lets go back to that desert thing.  What are deserts, in your opinion? Most peoples responses to that question would be places lacking in water.  DING DING DING!  Now, what is water, as far as a resource? Water = Life.  Is water a renewable resource? "Yeah, ya MycoJunkie, it rains all the time."  Ahh yes, so very true. . . But now lets examine the quality of that rain water, especially with the contaminating pollutants of 9 billion people.  What do you think of the rain water, and clouds now? They're abominable, aren't they? Abominable is a word that exemplifies human existance circa the last 200 years, at least in my opinion.

- Alright, so, we've established some facts:  Today, 1/5 of the earth is covered by desert.  In the next 30 years, theres a good chance that we'll be welcoming roughly 3-6 billion people into our home.  All of these people are going to need food.. So we have billions of methane (The MAIN contributor to the greenhouse effect, followed closely by carbon dioxide) storm farting cattle.  They're obviously going to want to live somewhere.. Lets increase deforestation by 50%.  Now they're gonna be driving.. increase greenhouse gas production by at least 50%.  And they don't want to die of dehydration, so lets increase water consumption by.. what the fuck - 50%.

- At this point... lets say 2030... would it be safe to say that the desert regions of the world have expanded by 25% of their normal size? I'd say thats an understatement.  Think about how hot its starting to get in Europe, once the Sahara has reached the northern continental borders of Africa.  Hey.. I bet you've got some European Ancestry.  Do you give a fuck about your 6th cousin 8 times removed, and her 4 year old twins?  I bet she does.  I bet she'd love it if she could reverse the last century's way of life.

- Now, you're asking me WHY you wouldn't want to leave a footprint.  I seriously hope you're joking.  And if you're not, I hope, for the sake of the abomination that is humanity, that you'll reconsider your priorities.  I know I have.

- You can call me a hippie, a tree hugger, environmentalist, whatever you want to call me.  But then I'd be obliged to call you an ignorant abomination.  How do you feel about contributing to the deaths of a few people? a few hundred? a few thousand? a million? Do you honestly think its possible that you've contributed to the poverty of hundreds of millions?
- Think about what happens if humanity makes it to the year 2500.  How much of a footprint -- how much have you IRREVERSABLY fucked up their only home? Sure, you're not alone. Theres billions of imbeciles who are fucking this place up just as bad as you, if not worse.  So? Are you going to let the snowball keep rolling until it chokes out the last hint of life on earth?

- I'm a generous person.  I pick up litter when I see it, and I curse the fucking hick who drives around tossing beer cans out his window in my goddamn neighborhood, when he could bring a trashbag out to his 83' ford ranger and recycle those goddamn cans.  My only hope is darwinism.  Thankfully, there are millions of incredibly stupid people who are endangering their lives in a much more tangiable way.  If you don't agree with me, I can only hope to suggest you hit up Micky-Dee's for supper, your wife does, and your soon to be diabese kids do as well.  I think that hydrogenated oil and fast food may actually be the last hope for humanity.  It singles out the most weak-willed, ignorant and stupid of all of the wreched abominations.

- So do us all a favor: Pick up some litter once in a while.  Next time you goto that national forest or park.. Bring a trashbag and do humanity a favor.  Maybe turn off the light when you leave a room, or take a minute less of a shower.

Heres another interesting fact: if you cut 1 minute off of your showering time, you save approximately 2000 gallons of water anually.

Appocolypse 2000? Nah, I think the Christian/Catholic/other religions were a bit off.. There will probably be Appocolypse eventually, of our own creation, but if we're lucky its a century or 2 away.

Thats right.  I give a damn about my home.  My earth.  My life... as well as those of others.


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:cussing::whip:


Edited by MycoJunkie (06/03/05 12:33 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251972 - 06/03/05 01:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Other than moral and health reasons, there is very little reason not to pollute.


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Invisiblefungusflip
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: MycoJunkie]
    #4251978 - 06/03/05 01:21 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

RIGHT ON BROTHER!!!! couldn't have said it better myself. In the name of compassion i sort of feel sorry for the guy who started this thread. Have you really come to a place in your life that nothing matters? I know things seem to be a lost cause at times, like cleaning up our environment, etc.etc.. However somebody has to do it. Do you live in america, I wonder? Did you know that if you are a broke homeless person in america you still land in the top 5 $$$$ earning braket in the world. 400 children die every hour from starvation. it takes 20 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef. cow flatulance is the second leading cause of ozone depletion. we humans are wasteful animals and eventually our living earth is just going to shake us off like a bunch of fleas. Why should i care though i won't be here when that happens.. By the way i have a kid and i'd like for him to get to experience the freedoms and beauty of this planet like all the generations before him without all of your trash and pollution.


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let it be know, there is a fountain that was not made by the hands of men.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251980 - 06/03/05 01:24 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Aside from it being morally wrong, why should I care?





Agreed.  In essence if you don't plan on having children or have immediate family whom you care about, the only reason to not pollute is based on morals. 

You should not pollute because it is your moral responsibility not to do so.  In a moral sense, you should attempt to contribute and help others.

Is acting morally wrong?  or even a reason to do something?  maybe, maybe not.  Here's an analogy:  I have no morals, or moral comprehension of murder.  I enter someone's house and kill them.  One could then pose the quesiton, why shouldn't I go around killing people?  These people mean nothing to me and in the grand scheme of things, mean nothing to society.  However the previous scenario shouldn't occur because murder is morally wrong.  (an extreme analogy but nonetheless) :smile:


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (06/03/05 01:27 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: MycoJunkie]
    #4251981 - 06/03/05 01:25 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Heres another interesting fact: if you cut 1 minute off of your showering time, you save approximately 2000 gallons of water anually.




I collect rain water for washing clothes, dishes, and showers. I do not have "city water" or a water well at my home. (As I said, I like to argue the other side from time to time in order to understand the issue. Just because I am posting as a polluter doesn't mean that I am one... I am simply trying to understand why some people don't care... which means I am trying to understand why I should care.)

> Other than moral and health reasons, there is very little reason not to pollute.

That is the conclusion I had come up with before making this post. I was hoping somebody would be able to show me otherwise. Unfortunately, most people don't care about their health until it is a problem and most people don't care about morals when money is involved.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineMycoJunkie
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4251983 - 06/03/05 01:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Heres another interesting fact: if you cut 1 minute off of your showering time, you save approximately 2000 gallons of water anually.




I collect rain water for washing clothes, dishes, and showers. I do not have "city water" or a water well at my home. (As I said, I like to argue the other side from time to time in order to understand the issue. Just because I am posting as a polluter doesn't mean that I am one... I am simply trying to understand why some people don't care... which means I am trying to understand why I should care.)





I realize that you were speaking from the point of view of the side opposing pollution. I'm glad do know that you're a conservationist, in one way or another.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4252407 - 06/03/05 04:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Aside from it being morally wrong, why should I care?

I didn't know there was a universal set of morals bound to everyone. Since there isn't polluting can't be considered morally wrong except by your personal moral standards.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4252658 - 06/03/05 05:17 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

How can you expect anyone to care about you, if you don't care about anyone else?

Ok, think of it like this: if you pollute you are causing detrimental health effects to at least one other human. Children are some of the most susceptible to this form of harm, so you have a HIGH possibility of harming an innocent child. You have initiated force against them, by harming them.

So you should use the same reasons for not polluting as you use for not going out and killing a child. :grin:


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The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/17/03
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Re: Why should I not pollute? [Re: Seuss]
    #4252768 - 06/03/05 05:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:


Now I am not talking about major pollution here that will come back to haunt me while I am still living. But why should I care about greenhouse gasses or global warming if the effects of such aren't going to become a huge problem until after I am dead?





Well you ARE contributing to major pollution that will come back and haunt you, like it or no. But hey, who cares...right? You'll be dead after some time anyway. Alone, and dead, if this is your general attitude....


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