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OfflineKalix
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Registered: 03/20/05
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Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism
    #4249416 - 06/02/05 08:10 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"Capitalism is probably the first instance of a cult that creates guilt, not atonement... The nature of the religious movement which is capitalism entails the endurance right to the end, to the point where God, too, finally takes on the entire burden of guilt, to the point where the universe has been taken over by that despair which is actually its secret hope. Capitalism is entirely without precedent, in that it is a religion which offers not the reform of existence but it's complete destruction. It is the expansion of despair, until despair becomes a religious state of the world in the hope that this will lead to salvation" - Benjamin

Thoughts? Comments? I have tapped into this vibe more than I care to remember... The utter hopelessness of the state of the world, due to materialism, and mass production, with complete disregard to nature, and no compassion whatsoever for the Earth..

I feel like psychedelics tap our individual consciousness into the greater collective consciousness of our Mother the Earth, our Father the Sky, and remind us of the infinite importance of sustainability, and love, as opposed to material possession, and greed.


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


Edited by Kalix (06/02/05 08:11 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Kalix]
    #4249517 - 06/02/05 08:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Capitalism is simply the separation of government and economy. There's nothing inherently bad about it. Now excuse me while I go check the other forums with this material possession known as a computer.


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Silversoul]
    #4249524 - 06/02/05 08:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think there's anything inherently bad about it, but it seems that mindless, and destructive consumerism is a by-product OF it..


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Kalix]
    #4249542 - 06/02/05 08:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Consumerism is a product of civilization, in which you have division of labor. Capitalism just offers the consumer more variety.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Silversoul]
    #4250119 - 06/02/05 10:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

saying that capitalism creates despair is different than saying it's bad. fact vs value.

i don't buy that selfishness is bad. we're a continuum and i'm as important as everyone else.

maybe he's saying something else. personally i'd like to know more what he was talking about in terms of guilt to opine whether he's right or wrong.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4250478 - 06/03/05 12:21 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

hmm i wonder if the despair he's talking about is existential despair, which seems to my eye more prevalent in capitalist culture than non-capitalist.

i agree you gotta be pretty desperate to totally pray to the dollar. but for lots of people, there's no higher thing.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Kalix]
    #4250572 - 06/03/05 12:43 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kalix said:
"Capitalism is probably the first instance of a cult that creates guilt, not atonement...



Poor Benjamin is very confused, he doesn't even know the definition of a cult.

Quote:

The nature of the religious movement which is capitalism...



Poor Benjamin is very confused, he doesn't even know what a religious movement is.

Quote:

entails the endurance right to the end, to the point where God, too, finally takes on the entire burden of guilt,



Poor Benjamin, sees a mythical being taking on guilt for an economic system which arose out of a division of labor, mediums of exchange and planning for the future.

Quote:

... to the point where the universe has been taken over by that despair which is actually its secret hope.



Poor Benjamin, thinks an economic system has emotions and longings and keeps secrets.

Quote:

Thoughts?



Benjamin is suffering from delusions coupled with a grand ignorance of economics.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4251159 - 06/03/05 04:00 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So, wait.. You guys are saying that capitalism doesn't promote environmentally destructive consumerism? Or @ least the sort of consumerized capitalism America enjoys?


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Kalix]
    #4251208 - 06/03/05 04:16 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Consumerism by itself is not destructive to the environment. It's the process of extracting raw materials and making products that is sometimes environmentally destructive.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Kalix]
    #4252039 - 06/03/05 01:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kalix said:
So, wait.. You guys are saying that capitalism doesn't promote environmentally destructive consumerism? Or @ least the sort of consumerized capitalism America enjoys?



Take a look at the former Soviet block countries and the problems of pollution created by them. Pollution is not an issue of capitalism. A polluter may be capitalist, communist, or just an asshole who feels like destroying something. ALL humans are consumers, all living things are consumers. ALL humans produce waste, all living things produce waste. 'Consumerism' (a very subjective term) is not capitalism, it may arise in any society with an abundance of material wealth and leisure time.

Capitalism cannot be blamed for the ills created by those who utilize it any more than medicine can be blamed for the crimes of Dr. Josef Mengele.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineCosmopolitan
Mattachine

Registered: 06/03/05
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Kalix]
    #4252232 - 06/03/05 03:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have always thought of capitalism as something that empowers women, which is a good thing.


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Yarry Unexpurgated?


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Cosmopolitan]
    #4252437 - 06/03/05 04:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Upon further reflection, I realize that capitalism is not inherently evil, or godless.. As Jeffersonian capitalism dictates, a well educated consumer base will spend money only in things they believe in.. Therefore the problem with our system of capitalism is not the capitalism itself, but a lack of education as to what products deserve to get money spent on.

I think it's because most of the education consumers get regarding products is from televised, or radio advertisements. We are more used to being convinced to buy something because of how socially desirable, or 'cool', or flashily packaged something is, not because of it's eco-friendliness, or long term sustainability.

Therefore, my issue (I speak for myself, and not Benjamin) is that mass media is controlled by powerful monopolies that spend trillions of dollars on convincing people to buy products, the proceeds of which are used to ruin our Earth, and country's basic ethic of capitalistic freedom.. I think that when Franklin wrote his capitalist manifesto, claiming that a 'well educated' populace will make conscientious decisions with their money, he wasn't counting on a corporate controlled media that constantly, through repetition convinces people that they are educated, and encourages them to throw money away on products that are destructive..


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Kalix]
    #4252598 - 06/03/05 04:53 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kalix said:
Therefore the problem with our system of capitalism is not the capitalism itself, but a lack of education as to what products deserve to get money spent on.

  I think it's because most of the education consumers get regarding products is from televised, or radio advertisements. We are more used to being convinced to buy something because of how socially desirable, or 'cool', or flashily packaged something is, not because of it's eco-friendliness, or long term sustainability.




This begs the question: would the advertisements be effective if American culture was not based on the concept of lack?  We idealize self-improvement as the panacea to all our ills, and advertisers use this mind-set to sell products.

No relationship?  You need to get sexier!  Buy some whitening toothpaste/clothing/shoes/hair product/cologne/perfume/sports car/jewelery/weight loss pills/etc... to accomplish your self-improvement project!!

The American dream has gone from "anyone can achieve their dreams of religious and financial freedom here!"  to "anyone can cure their lacks through proper purchasing and product use!"

The media did not create this change, but they reflect it, and advertisers certainly make haste to profit from it. :sad:


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Thoughts on the Metaphysical aspects of capitalism [Re: Veritas]
    #4257199 - 06/04/05 09:35 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

IMHO, if the media did indeed not create this mindset, they have at least been contributing to this mode of thought, the reason why is quite obvious.. The more insecure, and needy people are the more big business can profit, the more advertisers can charge for airspace... I'm thinking that we as a culture need to rethink our values, and quit buying into this panacea of a marketable American dream, full of Shampoo models with white-perfect teeth..


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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