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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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All in the brain
    #4249120 - 06/02/05 06:45 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If consciousness is experienced all in our brains then I want some answers to these questions because any who who is SURE it's all in our brains should be able to answer all of them.

When I envision a place I have been too in the past, with what source of light and with what eye am I seeing it with? Do I have a light bulb or eye ball in the memory section of the brain for this to take place? And how do the tissues and chemical reactions create that image of a past view?

Are there paint brushes and canvas's and a tiny french man with a beret in the memory section of my brain as well? What is recreating the images and how am I able to see them?

If the image I recall seeing is of Mt. Rushmore, which is much larger then my skull, how does it fit into my brain to see it again? The images also need a screen of some sort. Do brain scans show screens in my head that these images are displayed on?

When I read or think to myself quietly or recall a conversation, where is the sound of my own voice coming from if not my vocal chords and what is hearing it if not my ears? Do brain scans show brain vocal chords and brain ears?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4249210 - 06/02/05 07:09 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like you may have a lot of stuff on yer~ mind....(?)  :grin:  :heart:


:sun:


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Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: All in the brain [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4249230 - 06/02/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Read - The Holographic Universe by Mihcael Talbot, it will give you some interesting theories on the brain and mind.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4249260 - 06/02/05 07:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You see mount Rushmore and it draws an image in your eye sensors.
Your brain analises it and decodes it, because it can (out of experience, and a bit of instinct) figure out what kind of shapes can make what kind of images, it is like reverse photography.

Then it stores shapes as symbols. The same process that your brain used to decode images, is now used to make images out of these stored concepts (like 3d rendering) it loeads a concept of human face, texture of rock etc etc and renders a new (less acurate) image of mount Rushmore.

Now you don't see that image with your eyes. Light is not simulated with your brain, even the direct impact of light is not simulated (you don't see actual clear images when you remember unless in dreams)
What is simulated is the result of scaning of imput images.

When you get an image into your brain, you never see the whole image, you can only jump from one detail to the other one. These details leave faded traces in your memory.
These faded traces are being simulated now, and your part of brain tha processes image (observes and things about it) once again gets similar data to that when you are seing, but with the actual image part being skiped.

Remembering is like seing faded siluethes, but jumping to conclusion that you are seeing an image.

Let's say there is a camera and a computer attached to it. A computer is programed to recognize a circle and store the result in a log file. Then the camera sees a ball and the computer recognizses the circles and stores the information. Then later, the information is loaded from the log file (time, size, color etc.) and fed into a 3D modeling program like Maya, and the event in reconstructed, then stored in the log file again.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: All in the brain [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4249389 - 06/02/05 08:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like a lot of fancy talk. I have many fancy answers to my questions to, but lets stick with science fact here.

Where is the link to neuro science forums that show actual brain scans of where this "image scanner" in my physical brain is located, in what language is the image being decoded and downloaded and an actual brain scan picture of what it is being downloaded into and what part of my brain is the image appearing on in screen format?

How do people remember things they never learned like that savant genius who can tell you on spot what day of the week May 12th 5007 falls on or June 4 0018. This dude can't even remember how to tie his own shoes.

You yourself said that remembering is like seeing something. How does my brain see stuff that isn't there before my physical eyes?

If our brain is 'scanning" and downloading imagery for future memory recall, how come people recall shit that was never even there and can't recall stuff that was?

If our brain actually did that, recall would be flawless every time.

Explain how the brain scans stuff not there and pulls up downloaded data of what was not there to record in the first place.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4249464 - 06/02/05 08:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

well your vision is based on what comes into your brain, and you can fake that by rerouting something else to that data stream istead of actual data from the optical nerve. That is why you can see what your eyes don't register

And as for seeing stuff that you never saw, it comes from mixing imagination and memory. Your brain is designed to fill hole based on experience and logic. Where do these images come from? from the database of sounds and visions, shapes and figures, or from combinations of shapes that form something compleatly new.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4249469 - 06/02/05 08:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.brainconnection.com/library/?main=bbhome/main

I think you will like this site!

Check out the Anatomy of Vision section, and you might try a search on Long-term memory.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: All in the brain [Re: Veritas]
    #4249535 - 06/02/05 08:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It covered how actual physical imagery from eyesight works and actual sound waves are percieved.

I asked about how non immediate sight imagery and sound works. When you hear voices in a dream and see images, what are you seeing and hearing with in your dream states or memory recall states and where is it coming from?

I have been doing searches on it all and its hysterical to find scientists talking like the "flakes" here when these questions are approached.

Suddenly, science becomes subjective not objective and moves into multidimensionality versus 3-D physicality. They still only have theories about how models and approaches have to be changed to begin to explore those questions.

Fun stuff!

Wood, you havn't explained why my brain fakes data input for me and leaves holes in the first place. If I recall a robbery to help the police find the guy why did my brain "fake" the color of his jacket to be blue when it was actually red and why did my brain pull from imagination data storage to give the robber a mustache when he didn't actually have one?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4249555 - 06/02/05 08:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

When I envision a place I have been too in the past, with what source of light and with what eye am I seeing it with? Do I have a light bulb or eye ball in the memory section of the brain for this to take place? And how do the tissues and chemical reactions create that image of a past view?


To answer this, we need to discuss what it means to "see" something. Light enters your eyes and causes cells in your retina to fire small electrical signals down the optic nerve and into your brain. In the visual part of your brain (mostly near the back, called the visual cortex) these signals are interpreted in a variety of ways to "generate" a scene which you are able to consciously pick apart. For example, some brain cells respond only to lines. Others only to differences in shading or light level. Without this method of vision, you would probably not be able to recognize even simple objects in your field of vision. For example, there are people with VERY specific forms of brain damage who can, say, look at a face but NOT see it as a "face" - they will see a nose, eyes, mouth...but not a "face".

Now when you "see" something, in your mind, when you are remembering it or visualizing a concept...you are not "seeing" it in the same manner as you would with your eyes. Signals from the memory-storage parts of the brain are sent directly to the visual cortex. This results in a vague "image" of what you are remembering/thinking...but NOT a true image such as you get when you look at something with your eyes.

Are there paint brushes and canvas's and a tiny french man with a beret in the memory section of my brain as well? What is recreating the images and how am I able to see them?

See above. Your "memory" is being fed into the visual cortex as if it was from the optic nerve. This results in a vague form of "image" being produced.

If the image I recall seeing is of Mt. Rushmore, which is much larger then my skull, how does it fit into my brain to see it again? The images also need a screen of some sort. Do brain scans show screens in my head that these images are displayed on?

I highly doubt you can close your eyes and "see" Mt Rushmore with the same visual acuity as you could if you were actually there looking at it.

The image you do see, in your mind, is the result of a re-processing of visual data which has been "remembered". Human memory itself is not fully understood, but probably functions in a holographic-like manner. This would allow for a VAST ammount of memory storage in your brain.

I'm quite sure that brain scans will not show a "screen" in your brain...however they WILL show some of the same parts of your brain active when THINKING about an image as when LOOKING at an image. These are the image-decoding sections of your brain, and as previously stated the "minds eye" images are simply memory being fed into your visual cortex.

When I read or think to myself quietly or recall a conversation, where is the sound of my own voice coming from if not my vocal chords and what is hearing it if not my ears? Do brain scans show brain vocal chords and brain ears?

The same thing applies for audio as visual: when you "hear" something in your mind (which, we should point out, is QUITE a different act than actually hearing something with your ears - it doesn't even "feel" the same) you are feeding audio data into the speech/language/audio portions of your brain.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4249579 - 06/02/05 08:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well, some scientific theories say that actually it does not make holes, and you can actually re-experience every moment of your life through regresion, but some people spit on this theory.

So science is not unanimus regarding that question. So which science do you want to answer to your question? The branch that believes in total recal, or the one that doesn't?

The first one would tell you that there are many layers of memory and that holes in memory are just lost paths, like broken links (due to chaotic and random organisation of the brain)
The second one would just tell you that it is a flawed system, just like a lion can't learn math, you can't remember. Every creature in evolutionary chain is a work in progress and will always be..

this is deja vu, once you asked about creationism, god and evolution, and I said that you can ask for purpuse only in the end, and I'm going to say it here too.

Since only at the end of evolution every system works perfectly and has a perfect purpuse in the organism, you can not ask for perfect sense right now because organisms are a work in progress, and are full of random useless features

Again you ask the same question, with what do you see?
Even if the sight is real time, you are not seeing with your eyes, but with your brain. So it doesn't matter from where does the image come (from memory or from eyes), your brain can not tell the difference in a dream.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4249584 - 06/02/05 08:52 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Wood, you havn't explained why my brain fakes data input for me and leaves holes in the first place. If I recall a robbery to help the police find the guy why did my brain "fake" the color of his jacket to be blue when it was actually red and why did my brain pull from imagination data storage to give the robber a mustache when he didn't actually have one?

Your brain didn't do this on purpose. You were trying, hard, to remember things which were not recorded in memory. Because you have remembered some of the image, your brain is able to interpolate what the parts of the image which were not remembered "should" be.

A good example is the fact that we all have TWO BLIND SPOTS in our vision, very close to the center of vision. Normally you don't "see" these blind spots, because your brain is able to interpolate what should be there by examining the visual field around the blind spots.

People who work with lasers who have had the misfortune of retinal damage from said lasers will know all about this. You can burn a streak directly accross your retina but will not notice it for a week or two. Your brain is actually able to "cover over" the streaks by examining the visual field on either side of the streaks. This effect only persists for a week or two at most, at which point the unfortunate person begins to notice black lines through their vision.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: All in the brain [Re: trendal]
    #4249618 - 06/02/05 08:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It is obvious that memory will have some form of "compression" involved, as well as some form of "error-correction".

A good analogy is an audio CD. The audio on a CD is "compressed" in a manner because it does not contain all of the analogue audio data that was present at the time of recording. The recording device takes "snapshots" of the sound level repeatedly (44,400 times per second, for a standard audio CD). Any sound, or change in sound, which happens in between these snapshots is NOT recorded. In this way we are able to take the nearly UNLIMITED amount of audio data which actually exists, and "compress" it into a digital format which can fit on a CD.

When your CD player reads (remembers) the audio back off the CD, there is an error-correction function that happens before the sound is actually output. Say you have a scratch on your CD, or even a hole right through it (tidbit: you can make a 1mm diameter hole in a CD...and the CD won't even skip!). When this "hole" in the data is read, the CD player is able to determine that an error has occurred. It "looks" at the audio data before and after the error (hole) and uses this information to interpolate what the audio should be inside the hole.

Something of the same occurs during the actual digital-to-analogue conversion process when playing a CD. As I said above, the CD only has "snapshots" of the sound levels at certain points. You can't just output these snapshots straight to a speaker, because a speaker needs analogue input not digital. So the DAC (digital-to-analogue converter) guesses what the audio level should be in between the actual snapshots. This is what I mean by "interpolation" - guessing what the missing data should be, by examining the data which you do have.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Edited by trendal (06/02/05 09:05 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: All in the brain [Re: trendal]
    #4249623 - 06/02/05 09:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting stuff guys. Like the two theories bit, Wood. Tren some of your stuff brought up a lot more questions in me and I won't unload them here now:lol:

They have to do with memory reality recall and the "holes" and reality and how we can download realities into our memory banks pulling from the imagination storage data bank or create holes to be filled from it. Damn, it's all tying into my 3 fields of consciousnesses theory.

That explains why my research on these question had science turning to a subjective, not objective model.

All fun cool stuff. Gonna go rest my "brain" now.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4249967 - 06/02/05 10:16 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

??When I envision a place I have been too in the past, with what source of light and with what eye am I seeing it with???

With the envisioned, source of light and eye.

??Do I have a light bulb or eye ball in the memory section of the brain for this to take place???

Nice use of light bulb; an electric light in which a filament ?is heated? to incandescence by an electric current.

As we give of heat, could our entire body be a kind of ?light bulb??

??And how do the tissues and chemical reactions create that image of a past view???

Like you and me create and store these words, here.

??Are there paint brushes and canvas's and a tiny french man with a beret in the memory section of my brain as well???

Depends on your imagination, and I kind of guess, there is one now. :P

??What is recreating the images and how am I able to see them? If the image I recall seeing is of Mt. Rushmore, which is much larger then my skull, how does it fit into my brain to see it again???

When you let light bouncing of Mt. Rushmore, passing through your retina, storing the very same fractal patterns, re scaled, in your brain, in physical brain tissue, you connect the fractal with Mt. Rushmore, recalling the experience of being there, an image, or merely a smell.

??The images also need a screen of some sort. Do brain scans show screens in my head that these images are displayed on? ??

Not linear, you are the entire sum, of self, and as to where thought images are portrayed, I would say in the past, and the future, as the present, combined with ?stored? patterns.
The brain scan would show an image of the fractal, stored.

??When I read or think to myself quietly or recall a conversation, where is the sound of my own voice coming from if not my vocal chords and what is hearing it if not my ears? ??

Agreed, again the fractal pattern, as the stored interpreted senses, in and as the brain, connected to you formed self, as the present self, in a dynamic state of being selves, as self.
It is indeed, your thinking, your own voice heard with you ears, and you are using you vocal chords.





??Do brain scans show brain vocal chords and brain ears???

It shows the fractal pattern of our stored interpreted thoughts, so in a way, it kind of does.


"do not take seriously anything I say, I don' know anything"
-From OldWoodSpecter's sig.

:smile:


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Disclaimer!?


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: All in the brain [Re: Gomp]
    #4250052 - 06/02/05 10:38 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Idiot savants that can tell you what day it is just use math. But it's not really MATH per se, but they have a just, for some reason naturally figured out an algorithm that can tell you what day it is. We can do it too, but we use a computer or take much longer to do it. The days will cycle on dates in a predictable way, it's just not easy to do.


--------------------
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http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4251455 - 06/03/05 08:41 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

There is a very cool experiment that deals with this. A person sits and watches a screen while wearing color filters over each eye. One eye can see only the color red while the other eye can see only the color blue. A series of lines are displayed on the screen, half of them red and the other half blue. The brain will only see one set of lines, then a few seconds later it will see the other... even though the screen never changes the brain will continue to switch back and forth between what set of lines is being perceived at the moment.

The experiment was expanded and the person given a button to press when the lines switch. We know the color on the right will be seen by the left side of the brain and the color on the left will be seen by the right side of the brain. Every time the person hits the button, we know that their "awareness" has shifted from one side of the brain to the other.

The experiment was expanded even more and a large machine was brought in that can tell what part of the brain is excited (where neural activity is taking place at the moment). As the subject presses the button, a snapshot was taken of the brain activity at that moment. When the data is viewed on the computer, the area of activity in the brain as the lines switch around looks like flame (like from a lighter) that tends to circle around the brain.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: All in the brain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4251583 - 06/03/05 10:10 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

when you first saw the mountain, did you encompass that mountain?
were you encompassed by that mountain?

As I see it, many senses combined to create the gestalt "image" of the mountain experience, and the record of it was fixed in memory as an engram:

during the initial experience each point of neuronal excitement from each of the senses combined in the brainspace (cortex). the mixed result formed a set of engram keys that when revisited later bring it all back as memory.

Later, during recall, a portion of the same sensory brain screens (cortex) gets the same activity as occured during the first "live experience" so you actually relive the experience to a certain degree during recall of memory images.

the memory of any thing is never quite as accurately clear, though we can and do infill, and smooth very naturally.

it may not be easy to separate what has been infilled or smoothed over in remembered images. This is a huge area of difficulty for judges in courtroom situations since any witness could easily remember critical elements falsely.


Edited by redgreenvines (06/03/05 10:12 AM)


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