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Invisibledr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,645
Agnostic
    #4245846 - 06/01/05 10:28 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Agnostic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #4245892 - 06/01/05 10:40 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Very close to my beliefs. I give it  :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :cool:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Agnostic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #4245982 - 06/01/05 11:07 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

When, in a recent book, I said that what the world needs is "love, Christian love, or compassion," many people thought this showed some changes in my views, although in fact, I might have said the same thing at any time. If you mean by a "Christian" a man who loves his neighbor, who has wide sympathy with suffering, and who ardently desires a world freed from the cruelties and abominations which at present disfigure it, then, certainly, you will be justified in calling me a Christian. And, in this sense, I think you will find more "Christians" among agnostics than among the orthodox. But, for my part, I cannot accept such a definition. Apart from other objections to it, it seems rude to Jews, Buddhists, Mohammedans, and other non-Christians, who, so far as history shows, have been at least as apt as Christians to practice the virtues which some modern Christians arrogantly claim as distinctive of their own religion.





I couldn't have said it better myself.

:mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Agnostic [Re: Icelander]
    #4246000 - 06/01/05 11:13 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i read why i am not a christian and it's one of the reasons i stopped being one years ago
russell is right about a whole bunch of stuff
but in retrospect i'd say he was very bitter.
he was always baiting. i think somewhat, he was consumed by his hate.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Agnostic [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4246123 - 06/01/05 11:54 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

IME most people are agnostic.

Many "christians" just go thru the motions of being a "good christian" by going to church. They are "habitual christians". They do it out of fear/habit rather than a true belief in the religion. Its better to "believe" in the bible for fear of "burning in hell"

Many "atheist" are just pissed off at the "Christian Religion" and have rejected any notion of "God" or religion.


Neither group truly believes they know what's going on......they just put up a front.........like they have it figured out and you haven't.


I think it is hard for them to admit they they really don't know wtf is going on.

Admitting that you ignorant is hard to do for some people.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Invisibledr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,645
Re: Agnostic [Re: niteowl]
    #4246392 - 06/02/05 01:23 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:

IME most people are agnostic.
Neither group truly believes they know what's going on......they just put up a front.........like they have it figured out and you haven't.

I think it is hard for them to admit they they really don't know wtf is going on.

Admitting that you ignorant is hard to do for some people.




Good call man!!! :thumbup:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Agnostic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #4246684 - 06/02/05 02:53 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Agnosticism annoys me, for a few reasons. In a sense it is just fence riding, but I completely understand the viewpoint of realizing there are indeterminable unknowns in the universe. My problem with agnosticism, is that it is kind of like giving up in the search for personal truth. It also seems to only look at all philosophy and theology as two aspects, christian or atheism.
I think everyone, when asked "how did the universe begin?" should answer "I dont know" since Plancks wall scientifically and mathematically proves it is impossible to know; but agnosticism seems to extend the notion of "it is impossible to know" to hinder all spiritual growth and learning.
If you were ever truly agnostic, then what would be the point of reading a book on theology or philosophy, if in your eyes they are all mere speculation? How can there be room for personal enlightenment if all you can say is, "it is impossible to know"?

It isnt impossible to know, on a personal level. Many people "know" that there is a God, or "know" that there isnt. A better perspective would be that it is impossible to PROVE to other people, either way.

As long as you think it is impossible to know, it will remain so.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Agnostic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #4247217 - 06/02/05 09:53 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I posted a bunch of Bertrand Russel things a while ago and received very few responses. I have his book Why I am not a Christian and have read it quite a few times. It's a collection of his essays and though it's a bit dated it still offers great ideas.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Agnostic [Re: cb9fl]
    #4247242 - 06/02/05 10:03 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I love the following quote as it pretty much sums up my view of the world.

Quote:

I do not understand where this "beauty" and "harmony" are supposed to be found. Throughout the animal kingdom, animals ruthlessly prey upon each other. Most of them are either cruelly killed by other animals or slowly die of hunger. For my part, I am unable to see any great beauty or harmony in the tapeworm. Let it not be said that this creature is sent as a punishment for our sins, for it is more prevalent among animals than among humans. I suppose the questioner is thinking of such things as the beauty of the starry heavens. But one should remember that stars every now and again explode and reduce everything in their neighborhood to a vague mist. Beauty, in any case, is subjective and exists only in the eye of the beholder.




--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Agnostic [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4247323 - 06/02/05 10:51 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Agnosticism does not annoy me. It is the basic fact and acknowledgement to myself that I don't know.

It has never stopped me from reading a book and wondering, exploring. It has saved me from getting caught up in other peoples belief systems.

Knowing that no one knows. I am free to believe what ever makes me happy and healthy and whole in my own mind. I know my choosing to believe is totally subjective and mindplay. But I am free to do so and If it brings the results I want, it matters not if it is "truth".

For me it's a kind of freedom to be myself. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Agnostic [Re: Icelander]
    #4247522 - 06/02/05 12:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

knowing that no one knows? that is a pretty bold statement, which attempts to discredit any personal spiritual truth or encounter in everyone. Like I said before, a better way to put agnosticism is "it is impossible to prove to someone else" not "it is impossible to know". Just because your (and dont take this as a personal flame, it is referencing in general) ignorance or lack of personal knowingness on a spiritual level has or ever will prove it to yourself, can in no way discredit the experiences of others.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Agnostic [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4247541 - 06/02/05 12:36 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You're right! :blush: I misspoke. I have no way of knowing if anyone knows the ultimate truth. My personal experience leads me to believe they don't. But I cannot tell. Thanks for pointing that out. :grin: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Agnostic [Re: Icelander]
    #4247620 - 06/02/05 01:08 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

wow, you get 5 shrooms for that!

receding on a point is not something anyone here seems to be able to do (myself included), and I find it admirable that you can place your need to be right and debatably superior to the side and actually see someone elses point, even if you dont agree with it.

This seems to constantly get in the way in this forum. We are all very learned and knowledgable people here and each excel in varying subjects. i think we all have very much potential to learn from each other without having a pissing contest. Im not saying debating is bad, this is where ideas are challenged and expanded.

Not to derail the thread..... so.....yeah..... how bout those agnostics?


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Agnostic [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4247715 - 06/02/05 01:36 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
My problem with agnosticism, is that it is kind of like giving up in the search for personal truth.




Being agnostic doesn't mean I have given up the search for personal truth. I have some very strong personal beliefs.....I just cant prove them to another person.

It doesn't mean that I have given up on the search for enlightenment.....just that I(we) have no real way to know how to get there. Saying that you have to follow this religion or that........doesn't sit well with me.

Quote:

It also seems to only look at all philosophy and theology as two aspects, christian or atheism.




I think he was primarily talking about people who believe in God vs. people who don't believe in God.

He just used the Christians as an example for all "religious" people be they Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist. His audience was mainly christian so he used that religion as the opposite of atheism

Quote:

I think everyone, when asked "how did the universe begin?" should answer "I don't know" since Plancks wall scientifically and mathematically proves it is impossible to know; but agnosticism seems to extend the notion of "it is impossible to know" to hinder all spiritual growth and learning.




I don't see how acknowledging that "we don't know how the universe began" relates to a hindering of spiritual growth.

No one truly knows how the universe began. Regardless of what they believe. That doesn't mean that we should stop trying to understand why.

I believe that by choosing a religion you are hindering your spiritual growth because I don't believe that any single religion has the truth. It will take a blending of religions to get at the whole truth....IMO


Quote:

If you were ever truly agnostic, then what would be the point of reading a book on theology or philosophy, if in your eyes they are all mere speculation? How can there be room for personal enlightenment if all you can say is, "it is impossible to know"?




It's not that it is impossible to eventually know. Just that we don't know at this time

The search for personal truth really never ends. The truth is out there......we just have to keep an open mind to things that we cant explain yet. Saying that something that you have no rational explanation for was a "hallucination" or "you didn't see what you thought you saw" is just wrong. IMO


I believe that an agnostic is willing to believe that anything is possible. Saying that we have it "all figured out" is the real end of learning.

Quote:

It isnt impossible to know, on a personal level. Many people "know" that there is a God, or "know" that there isnt. A better perspective would be that it is impossible to PROVE to other people, either way.





That's what it really all comes down to, with being an agnostic.....no one really knows the truth about how/why we are here.

We put on these "envelopes of comfort"(belief systems that work for us) Some people believe that their envelope of comfort is the one that everyone needs to have on in order to find the truth.

Quote:

As long as you think it is impossible to know, it will remain so.





Being agnostic doesn't mean I think it's impossible to know the truth.......just that each truth will be different for each person....

There is no UNIVERSAL TRUTH


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Agnostic [Re: niteowl]
    #4247900 - 06/02/05 02:20 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

somehow I completely agree with everything you just said nightowl, but cant figure out why we are debating this between us. I think our definition of agnosticism is different. Im referring to it at a fundamental level, while i think you are referring to it as one of the very first and basic understandings everyone should have before searching for the truth.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Agnostic [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4248099 - 06/02/05 03:11 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

IMO

Agnostic: Someone who accepts the fact that our origins are still in question.

"Is there a God? :shrug:"

Religious/Christian: Someone who believes in a "God/creator"

"There is a God, and this is how you find Him......."

Atheist: Someone who believes there isn't a God.

"We simply evolved from monkeys. No need for a God myth."


Both the Religious and Atheist ideals are too simple. Too cut and dry.

IME things are rarely simple and easy.

I believe in a combination of The Theory of Evolution and The Theory of Creationism


My belief system fits none of the religions I've heard of and an image of an ALL-POWERFUL OMNIPOTENT BEING doesn't sit well either.

So I place myself in the Agnostic group for those reasons.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Agnostic [Re: niteowl]
    #4248134 - 06/02/05 03:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

the origin of everything is basically the first step a religion or belief system must take or ask itself, which is why i referred to the Big Bang...
Agnosticism just seems to be the belief in Plancks time and wall, which just seems kind of like stating the obvious.


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