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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
America -a beacon of freedom to the world
    #4244823 - 06/01/05 05:52 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

A 22-year-old prisoner at a US detention centre in Afghanistan died in December 2002 after being chained by his wrists to the top of his cell for four days and beaten until, according to the coroner, he resembled someone run over by a bus.

The Enemies of all Humankind"

We should at least speak up about torture claims.

Dateline: Sunday, May 29, 2005

by Linda McQuaig

A 22-year-old prisoner at a US detention centre in Afghanistan died in December 2002 after being chained by his wrists to the top of his cell for four days and beaten until, according to the coroner, he resembled someone run over by a bus. During his interrogations, the prisoner cried "Allah" whenever he was struck, which apparently amused his US interrogators and encouraged them to strike more. One later explained: "Everybody heard him cry out and thought it was funny."

One might have thought that this horrific story ? detailed in a 2000-page confidential Pentagon file obtained by The New York Times ? would profoundly shake up a nation that prides itself as a beacon of freedom to the world.

Accusing Washington of having become "a leading purveyor and practitioner" of torture, Amnesty called on Congress last week to appoint an independent commission...



But the death of this young Afghan taxi driver ? who, it turns out, his interrogators believed to have been innocent ? as well as more than 100 other detainee deaths and countless torture allegations at the Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay prisons have failed to provoke any official investigation aimed at holding top people in the Bush administration to account.

These top people have launched plenty of investigations of low-level people, but nothing that might expose their own role. And Congress and the US media seem too weak or indifferent to press the matter.

Against this backdrop of inaction, it's fallen to the respected human rights group Amnesty International to try to hold the most powerful government in the world to account.

Accusing Washington of having become "a leading purveyor and practitioner" of torture, Amnesty called on Congress last week to appoint an independent commission to investigate what appears to be planning at the highest levels to avoid criminal responsibility for torture.

Amnesty also called on countries around the world to help, by upholding their obligations under international law to investigate possible involvement by senior US officials in torture.

"Some crimes ? war crimes, genocide, torture ? are so serious that their perpetrators, like modern-day pirates, are the enemy of all humankind," Amnesty spokesperson Vienna Colucci said.

She explains that such foreign investigations, or even expressions of disapproval, draw attention to the issue and could spur action within the United States.

Should Canada get involved? On some levels, this sounds preposterous. We can't stop Washington and protesting the actions of its leaders certainly won't help us convince them to open their market to our beef.

But then, some things may be even more important than selling beef.

The international convention against torture, signed by 139 nations, could be considered a bottom line standard for human decency. When the most powerful nation in the world flagrantly steps over it, we are surely in a downward spiral toward an acceptance of inhumanity and depravity. "It lowers the bar for everyone," says Colucci.

So we can get on board with Amnesty's gutsy stand in defence of international law ? or we can send a signal that, while we're no fans of torture, for us, financial considerations come first.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: carbonhoots]
    #4247188 - 06/02/05 09:28 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

no replies... of course.

We don't want to hear that shit!

:rolleyes:


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: exclusive58]
    #4247230 - 06/02/05 09:59 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Oh I heard it. Do something world, we dare ya!


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineJ4S0N
human
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 284
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: looner2]
    #4247250 - 06/02/05 10:09 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Its so sad, breaks my heart. Innocent poeple die to protect rich peoples assets. These people will get whats coming to them, and everyone thats supports these actions. Evil is everywhere


--------------------
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: looner2]
    #4247254 - 06/02/05 10:10 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Should Canada get involved?

LOL

On some levels, this sounds preposterous.

My thoughts exactly :hippie:

We can't stop Washington and protesting the actions of its leaders certainly won't help us convince them to open their market to our beef.

Ahhh, so this whole article was just a ploy into buying into their beef trade. Europe isn't as altruistic as we once assumed.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: looner2]
    #4247365 - 06/02/05 11:12 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:sad:


--------------------




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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: exclusive58]
    #4247563 - 06/02/05 12:44 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
no replies... of course.

We don't want to hear that shit!

:rolleyes:




While this guy's treatment does sound a bit severe, I don't really give a shit (if he was guilty).  But, considering they think he is innocent, then that does trouble me.

I advocate torture of terrorists and their ilk.


Edited by RandalFlagg (06/02/05 12:46 PM)


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4248131 - 06/02/05 03:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I advocate torture of terrorists and their ilk.




You're saying that just to piss me off and start a debate aren't you?

exclusive->:whack:<-Randal

exclusive: "come on! say it goddamn it, that's what you're trying to do huh?!"

:grin:


--------------------


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: carbonhoots]
    #4248550 - 06/02/05 04:46 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)




Yawn.



Remind me how many people were beheaded, women and children blown up, and military and police-in-training gunned down in the past week or so.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4248589 - 06/02/05 04:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Remind me how many people were beheaded, women and children blown up, and military and police-in-training gunned down in the past week or so.



Why? Do two wrongs make a right? Do the barbaric actions against the innocent justify other barbaric actions against others who are innocent? Do barbaric actions against a hostile invading force justify barbaric actions against the innocent?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4248720 - 06/02/05 05:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

no. but there is only on wrong. the terrorist.

please show me a reliable source (not the commie bitch linda mcquiad)

1. that American soldiers(interrogators) beat a man to death for four days.

2. while they were beating him to death he was screaming "allah" and they were laughing.

3. and he was just an innocent taxi driver and did nothing to provoke the soldiers (interrogators).


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4249077 - 06/02/05 06:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
no. but there is only on wrong.



Why don't you stop right there. There seems to be no point in attempting a rational discussion with someone who refuses to see that there are many wrongs being committed in the world. Do you deny that wrongs can be committed by people regardless of their national allegiance?

Ignoring this particular case and speaking generally, please answer the following: Do you believe the governments should have carte blanche to arrest anyone they see fit and hold them indefinitely without charges or proof? Do you believe that governments should have carte blanche to torture anyone they see fit without those people being charged with any crime?

Regardless of the reasons given, the fact remains that the U.S. government is the invader of a sovereign nation. If the roles were reversed and another country had invaded the U.S., would you support the interrogators? Do you believe that other nations, whose leaders say that your current government is the incarnation of evil on the planet earth, have a right to invade the your country, suspend your civil rights, arrest your fellow citizens without charges and torture them?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,439
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4249479 - 06/02/05 08:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
I advocate torture of terrorists and their ilk.




The problem is: who determines who/what a "terrorist" is? At what point can you be so sure someone is guilty that you can torture them?

What about the innocents who will, inevitably, be tortured by mistake (as in this case)?


Imagine, for a moment, that someone were to turn you in to the US military as a terrorist. They did so because they didn't like you, and there is a standing reward for turning in terrorists. You are innocent, but because of your skin colour and nationality (just imagine, for a moment) you fall right into the military's view of "terrorist".

You are taken away, and tortured in an attempt to extract information - which you don't have.

How would you feel?

How would your family react?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: trendal]
    #4249748 - 06/02/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You are taken away, and tortured in an attempt to extract information - which you don't have.




the purpose of torture is not to extract information ..

the nation...

Quote:

Exactly. As an interrogation tool, torture is a bust. But when it comes to social control, nothing works quite like torture.




and i strongly believe that the majority of american voters..who support torture..realize this too...they understand that torture doesnt prevent terrorism..etc..but rather believe that greater use of force is still necessary for other reasons...so the questions that need to be asked are .."what does the majority believe they have to lose if we dont have torture?".. and .."how accurate is that risk assessment?"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (06/02/05 09:49 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 8 months, 23 days
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4249856 - 06/02/05 09:53 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Ah yes, The Nation, final authority on.......everything.
I know I shiver in fear every night from the threat of abduction and rendition. I know you do too. Which is why you never say anything that might remotely be construed as anti-American.


--------------------


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4250006 - 06/02/05 10:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why? Do two wrongs make a right?




Be careful when making these blanket statements. God forbid the US should actually start fighting with the same tactics and indescretion of their enemy..


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,439
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4250028 - 06/02/05 10:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

the purpose of torture is not to extract information ..


If you actually read my post, you would have noted that I wasn't discussing the "purpose" of torture.

It was a hypothetical thought-experiment to try and understand what it must be like for innocent people who are tortured.

Please leave this "Nation" source out of the argument, anna. You're taking this off the loony-edge.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineAnisotropic
Stranger
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 538
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: Catalysis]
    #4250034 - 06/02/05 10:34 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm so glad I moved to Canada, and that my tax money no longer goes to support things like this.

I had a doctors appointment I didn't pay for last week. Kinda reminds me what happens when governments actually care about you.


Edited by Anisotropic (06/02/05 10:36 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 28,070
Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: Anisotropic]
    #4250044 - 06/02/05 10:37 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anisotropic said:
Right because we all know the US is known for there Honorable war tactics.


Which country is know for there "Honorable war tactics"?


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OfflineAnisotropic
Stranger
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 538
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Re: America -a beacon of freedom to the world [Re: DieCommie]
    #4250050 - 06/02/05 10:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

yea, that's actually why I edited it out of the post there man...


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