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OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
trapped by the signifier
    #4244198 - 06/01/05 02:55 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

we are really limited by our language...our identities are engineered by its cultural products, and our psychology dictated by its structure.

whole universes are locked away due to our inability to read and speak other languages, even if a translation is (((near))) perfect...which is very rare...its not the same.

If you could be perfectly fluent in another language (to a level where you understood all the subterranean cultural nuances) which language would you choose and why?

I would go with Japanese, because you kill two birds with one stone, meaning you could also read, to a degree, Chinese, and thus access the knowledge of two ancient societies.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 19,727
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Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Doom]
    #4244354 - 06/01/05 03:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Spanish.

Why? The time to head south approaches. Besides, latin women are hot.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Doom]
    #4244396 - 06/01/05 04:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

ha ha, I never bothered to learn grammar nor spelling in either languages I speak, makes me wonder, (sorry if OT), but does Japanese/Chinese got grammars as well?


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OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Gomp]
    #4244402 - 06/01/05 04:06 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
ha ha, I never bothered to learn grammar nor spelling in either languages I speak, makes me wonder, (sorry if OT), but does Japanese/Chinese got grammars as well?




yes of course, Japanese grammer is the opposite of English (subject comes last) while Chinese has no tenses, making them both quite challenging.


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Doom]
    #4244472 - 06/01/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Indians, language "native Americans" don't have grammar then?


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OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
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Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Gomp]
    #4244474 - 06/01/05 04:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

every language has an inherent structure, I suppose.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Doom]
    #4244859 - 06/01/05 06:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

we are really limited by our language...our identities are engineered by its cultural products, and our psychology dictated by its structure.

This is very true.

Those who speak only one language cannot understand the widening that occurs when a second or more language is learned fluently. You begin to understand intuitively the grammar and construction of other languages you don't know.

For example, in English, you say "the green table", but in Spanish it's "la mesa verde", or literally "the table green". This grates against the English-only speaker, but someone who speaks French and not Spanish will intuitively get-it because French uses the same construction.

Also, when someone says in French "je ne ce pas", it translates literally into "I no know ???". There is no translation for 'pas' and no way way to make an English-only person intuitively get what the 'pas' means, and although that construction isn't used in Spanish, it feels right to the Spanish speaker who doesn't speak French.

In other words, the net result of a second language is greater than the sum of the two; it's a linguistic gestalt.

I'm furtunate to speak three languages fluently and am v-e-r-y grateful for it! Thanks mom!  :thumbup:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Diploid]
    #4244881 - 06/01/05 06:06 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

My french used to be somewhat fluent...not so much any more. Need to start practicing again.

Isn't the pas explained as a way to end whatever is being negated?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: orechron]
    #4244907 - 06/01/05 06:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, but there is no literal translation in Spanish or English. Yet to one who speaks Spanish but not French, the rhythm and cadence of "je ne ce pas" sings rather than grates.

I use the word 'grates' for lack of a better one. For example, if I say "This is you food", it immediately triggers a feeling that something is wrong with that sentence. This is what I mean by the sentence grates rather than sings.

Somehow the neurological connections that make Spanish sound right also make French sound right even if the person can't speak French.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Diploid]
    #4244908 - 06/01/05 06:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I speak "geek" or techno-babble; does that count?

I play backgammon players from around the world online. Last night I had fun with a German <-> English dictionary communicating with a gentleman in Munich.

I also try to explore as many non-linguistic "worlds" as possible.

Do something cultural that you would never see yourself doing such as going to a Dog Show or opera or rodeo or whatever. But don't just go, dissolve into it and feel what the other spectators or participants are feeling if possible.

I link this because each activity and job has it's own vernacular and by using the words or phrases associated, you gain new perspective.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
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Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Diploid]
    #4244966 - 06/01/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I was taught in french class that "pas" translated into "not"


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Swami]
    #4244973 - 06/01/05 06:26 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

rodeo or whatever. But don't just go, dissolve into it and feel what the other spectators or participants are feeling

In the case of a rodeo, you could dissolve into, or even step in, what the other participants are smelling too. :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,866
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Last seen: 1 month, 27 days
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Doom]
    #4244983 - 06/01/05 06:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Doom said:
every language has an inherent structure, I suppose.




I saw this program, there was this dude, hew spake fluently so many languages it was totally insane... any ways.. he shared a tip..
in learning a new language, forget everything, and start with grammars, its like the skeleton of a human, so you in seeing it would stat by outlining what to fill in..

anyways.. he said, there was this one language he wanted to learn but had much difficulties understanding, as it lacked grammar, ...

anyways, it was probably no dud at all, I may have dreamt it..


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4244992 - 06/01/05 06:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I was taught in french class that "pas" translated into "not"

Sorta, but not exactly. It goes hand-in-hand with the 'ne', but it's the 'ne' in "je ne ce pas" that provides the negation. The phrase can't be literally translated to English word for word. The best translation is "I don't know" but literally it's "I no know pas".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: Diploid]
    #4245011 - 06/01/05 06:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thats right. I forgot about ne. It's been over 20 years but I got straight As in that class.

I thought I was going to go to Parsons school of Design in Paris, but took other roads and never used French, what a waste. I could've used Spanish a lot in my adult life. Wish I would've taken that instead.

french sounds so pretty


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4245032 - 06/01/05 06:38 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I would love to speak the language of animals. I want to know what the birds and my cat are saying.

Imagine being brought into their world through their language.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
Loc: The Symphony of Lights......
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4245621 - 06/01/05 09:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I would love to speak the language of animals. I want to know what the birds and my cat are saying.



.
You just read my mind....!?  :shocked:  :grin:

I would also pick this as a second language....


:sun:


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Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: trapped by the signifier [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4245667 - 06/01/05 09:28 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i read in songs of the gorilla nation the claim that gorillas speak
a) through sign language
b) they autonomously teach sign language to their offspring
c) gorillas will rarely vocally speak; it's heavily accented but it's speech.

(the last one i'm a little skeptical.)

it's like consciousness exists on a continuum- even animals can learn language. IOW the only things that separates humans from other animals is -degree- of intelligence, not -kind-


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