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trendal said:
Well then, this begs the question: can you hold people accountible for their actions under orders?

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OldWoodSpecter said:
Well cheers for those 50% then 

I mean those who didn't obey

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{Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/15/05 01:20 PM) }


For some reason, seeing that "edited by" and knowing what you added there..  I had to laugh    awesome hehe

Anyhow..
the study wasn't, and doesn't, peer into how sadist people are, or how many people are sadistic.

It's all about how many people will follow orders, even in the face of causing great harm to another.

Quite alarming nonetheless -- I've heard and read about it before.  I guess there's only about half as much 'free will' floating around as we really need, eh?  Pretty easy to say and believe that we'd all be one of the ones who walk out, but it's a whole different game once you're actually in that kind of a situation.
Best thing to do is not just think that you'd be one of the ones who walked out..  but to make sure, always, that you actually DO walk out.  Constant vigilance is price of freedom, not just for societies, but for ourselves as well.

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Nomad said:

I agree, there are some very strong implications regarding the nature of free will, and particularly the effect of conditioning. A frog, when put into boiling water, will immediately jump out; yet when he is put into cool water, which is then slowly heated, he will die. If I remember it correctly, the lowest voltage was applied to the "teacher" before the experiment - nothing more than a mildly prickling sensation. There is no ethical argument whatsoever why one would not apply such a low electric charge to the "learner". Thus, one gets sucked into the experiment. No one would immediately apply a 450 volts electric shock, but if one has already administered the 435 volts, one may as well proceed one step further.

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Veritas said:

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trendal said:
Well then, this begs the question: can you hold people accountible for their actions under orders?

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This question holds the answer to another: why would people want to obey orders to do things they believe to be wrong?

Carl Jung's theory of the "shadow" holds that humans reject qualities in themselves which are judged to be wrong, and deny that they possess such evil traits.  This denial persists to the extent that we actually forget that we have anything to deny!  Because most humans cast a very long shadow, a heavy bag we drag behind us, we jump at the opportunity to relieve ourselves of the burden by projecting it onto others. 
The experiment conducted by Milgram allowed participants to act out the unacceptable desire to cause harm to others, free of social censure.  Just as the Nazi soldiers used "following orders" to excuse their monstrous behavior, the students knew they could deny personal responsibility.  After all, Hitler was the truly evil one, wasn't he? Those who carried out his orders were mere puppets.
IMO the relief experienced by those 50% who continued to follow orders was stronger than the dictates of their conscience because the weight of their shadow had become unbearable.

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I agree. Very insightful. I think you nailed it.

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True that, true that, you hit the nail on the head with that, when you take the first step you are embarking on a slippery slope out of which it is extremely hard to climb back out. It is a gradual conditioning process. The same with propaganda, if you expose people to it for long enough periods you can get them to believe anything. The most horrific examples of where this is used is in personality cults of totalitarian leaders, such as Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong Il, Saddam Hussein, where the entire population is forced to elevate the status of the leader to beyond godlike, this is a gradual process like with the frog example, but it is a very dangerous thing. As human beings we are innately social creatures, and to have social cohesion you need some form of conformity, it is the ability of people to work in groups while still retaining some form of individualism that I think has got the human race from a position as being the cripples of nature (we cannot defend ourselves naturally, we cannot attack naturally, our digestive systems are useless, walking on two legs makes us very slow and clumsy, we shouldn't exist basically) to being in a position where we can easily wipe out nature on earth many times over. Conformity is a double-edged sword, it is what has got humanity to where it is today, yet on the flip side it can be used by greedy, egotistical, power-hungry individuals to manipulate people to carry out their sick will, who allow humanity to commit atrocities which disgrace nature itself, with technology it is becoming easier and easier for these kinds of people to get what they lust for, complete power and control. It is now becoming essential that we know when we are being manipulated and for what purpose, while still retaining social cohesion. The two things are completely contradictory and probably cannot co-exist, I see myself as being a very idealistic/naive person, I truly take the statemen 'all men (and women) are born equal and free' very literally, so I hate to say this, but I have come to the conclusion that the world is composed of a minority of leaders controlling huge masses of followers, democracy dilutes the power of these leaders somewhat and makes them somewhat accountable for their actions, but they are still the ones in control, rather than the people. It is essential that there is a mechanism by which only leaders who have good, alturistic intentions get to power, again democracy seems to be the most effective way of trying to do this, but democracy is far from perfect, due to the innate sheep-like nature of people which makes them easy to manipulate. I am not sure where this will end, with the advanced technology available today a totalitarian 1984 style situation is entirely feasable, North Korea is very close to this dystopia, any expression of individuality is spotted and immedietaly, brutally supressed, it is now illegal for men to have long hair, for example, you will be sent to a concentration camp for violating such a stupid law. God knows where it will end.

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