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InvisibleRavus
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Do Molecules Have Feelings?
    #4233358 - 05/29/05 02:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

We say molecules don't have feelings or consciousness (most of us, that is.)

Yet how is it one assortment of molecules called humans are thought to have feelings? Are we overlooking something?

We say molecules don't have feelings, but humans, which are created from molecules, do. It's almost as if something is coming from nothing- abiotic, emotionless objects form together and somehow, in the process, create biotic, emotional animals.

Or are these emotions just illusions, and no more important than the organization of molecules in a rock? Perhaps it's only a chemical reaction that we give extra importance to, but is really fully explainable by just the reactions of molecules. So emotions in themselves don't exist, but are just a human concept for the scientific interaction of molecules.

Or is there another explanation?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Ravus]
    #4233420 - 05/29/05 03:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, it's weird and very interesting.

A single termite(a termite has no eyes!) has no idea how to built a nest, but thousands of termites can make a brilliant structure and a perfect working community while not a single termite has any idea of the big picture. They all function on primitive reactions and chemical messages. Like neurons in our brain...



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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Annom]
    #4233482 - 05/29/05 03:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It truely is odd that which we are using to perceive everything, that which creates our consciousness, is just supposedly nonconscious cells sending along signals. It's absolutely mindblowing that even at the scale of tens millions of these cells just passing along signals, suddenly consciousness and perception are formed.

Or more aptly phrased: What the hell is going on? We don't know how any of this is occurring really, we can figure out the building blocks but how do we connect the building blocks, whether it be molecules or neurons, to full consciousness? Many try to cure this by resorting to pseudoscientific New Age beliefs about having a soul or consciousness making up everything, but I believe it's a bit hasty to resort to such concepts without concrete evidence.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Ravus]
    #4233494 - 05/29/05 03:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Are hydrogen and oxygen wet?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233502 - 05/29/05 03:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Wetness is just a sensory perception created by our neuronal pathways, is it not? External to the animalistic (and possibly other biotic) mind, wetness does not exist.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Ravus]
    #4233509 - 05/29/05 03:26 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thats wrong, wetness means its liquid form, as any liquid would be cosnidered "wet", liquid is a state which a group of molecules are in based on their energy level, so to say wetness does not exist is as valid as saying YOU dont exist.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233511 - 05/29/05 03:26 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

My first ever "debunking" was in fourth grade when my teacher told the class that fish breathe because water is made up of hydrogen and oxygen.

I stood up. "Sorry honey, but fish do NOT perform electrolysis. They breathe air dissovled in the water in the form of tiny bubbles."

The red-faced teacher sent me to the principle's office and thus my lifetime "career" was born.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (05/29/05 03:59 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4233524 - 05/29/05 03:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

When you place your hand in a glass of water and feel its wetness, that feeling is occuring in your neural pathways, not in the water. A subjective feeling like wet is not the same as the chemical characteristics of water that make it into a liquid.

If you could stimulate the neural pathways correctly, you could make someone feel something wet without even touching a liquid.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Ravus]
    #4233528 - 05/29/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If you could stimulate the neural pathways correctly, you could make someone feel something wet...

You mean like when I was dirty dancing with that hot babe at "The Rain" nightclub on Friday night?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Swami]
    #4233543 - 05/29/05 03:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Haha thats a great story Swami.

But back to the science :laugh:

(Pointless Information)

Weather hydrogen can be wet is arguable, for hydrogen to turn into a liquid, the temperature would have to near sub-zero, and even then, hydrogen is a metal in liquid form, but to say hydrogen is wet would be like saying liquid nitrogen is wet, most people who I know had experience with liquid nitrogen dont use the term "wet" to describe the pain :laugh:

Same thing with oxygen, except its not a metal.

2 hydrogen atoms that lose their electrons to an oxygen atom and are stuck together forms the properties of water, which we consider wet. It has nothing to do with the atoms that form it, because the atoms themselves have their particle pattern re-arranged, which in itself creates new physical properties.

(/Pointless Information)

IMO, Molecules are simply made of particles. Particles are made of quarks. Quarks are made of something and thats made of something etc till your down to the last something simply being a low level energy.

So the argument wouldnt be if Molecules have feelings, but if energy has feelings, since in all actuality youre just energy.

Referring to a thread that deals with Matter simply being energy...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Forum11&Number=4226618


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Swami]
    #4233552 - 05/29/05 03:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You mean like when I was dirty dancing with that hot babe at "The Rain" nightclub on Friday night?

Careful, Swam, at your age that could be dangerous!  :blush:


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Diploid]
    #4233583 - 05/29/05 03:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Theres a difference between actual sensory input and what youre basically describing as a hallucination, thats completely different states of mind that youre saying to mix together to make someone feel something thats wet, basically dreaming/hallucinating it, rather than have actual sensory input. But if youre talking about externally manipulating the nerves to make you feel wetness, whats your point? Ive felt things that could be felt as wet at first instance, but its the inclusion of all my other senses that tells me that its actually not wetness.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4233603 - 05/29/05 04:08 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

When you feel something wet, doesn't that feeling occuring in your neural pathways?

Yes, according to our science water is a liquid in certain settings, and when we touch a liquid we feel wetness, but the key point here is that we feel wetness in our neural pathways. The concept and feeling of wetness are occurring within the human brain.

I don't think that everything is simply just energy though, because what is energy? We go lower and lower with particles until we get energy, but energy has no particles? How do we determine the characteristics of energy if it indeed has no particles, as everything else we've dealt with does?

According to wave-particle duality of quantum mechanics, all light and matter can be seen as both having the characteristics of waves and particles. Of course, being part of physics, this duality is only in usefulness to science and not to philosophy, so we don't say that an electron is both a wave and a particle, but rather that it exhibits the properties of a wave in some situations and the properties of a particle in others.

This really does seem to blend our definitions of reality, because these particles we are made up of aren't necessarily particles at all, but are both particles and waves.

The sad part is that none of this clarifies the issue at all, and quantum mechanics doesn't seem to help solve how basic nonconscious constituents form consciousness when they are organized in a certain way.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Ravus]
    #4233782 - 05/29/05 05:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
We say molecules don't have feelings or consciousness (most of us, that is.)

Yet how is it one assortment of molecules called humans are thought to have feelings? Are we overlooking something?

We say molecules don't have feelings, but humans, which are created from molecules, do. It's almost as if something is coming from nothing- abiotic, emotionless objects form together and somehow, in the process, create biotic, emotional animals.

Or are these emotions just illusions, and no more important than the organization of molecules in a rock? Perhaps it's only a chemical reaction that we give extra importance to, but is really fully explainable by just the reactions of molecules. So emotions in themselves don't exist, but are just a human concept for the scientific interaction of molecules.

Or is there another explanation?




must everything be some astral thingy in order for shroomers to accept is as real?
Emotions do exist. They are chemical reactions. Does a chemical reaction exist? Yes it does. When someone gives you a kiss or a hug, you experience joy. This joy is a chemical reaction and it is very real


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Annom]
    #4233807 - 05/29/05 05:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Yeah, it's weird and very interesting.

A single termite(a termite has no eyes!) has no idea how to built a nest, but thousands of termites can make a brilliant structure and a perfect working community while not a single termite has any idea  of the big picture. They all function on primitive reactions and chemical messages. Like neurons in our brain...

 







:grin: :thumbup:
:heart:


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Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4233818 - 05/29/05 05:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

That's wrong. Feelings are real reactions; chemical reactions often occur because of feelings, but they do not create the feelings ( in the case of a severe chemical imbalance, the "feelings" aren't actually feelings. A friend who was on prozac for years explained that the chemical part would make the body react, but as the action was unsubstantiated, it was like a zombie smiling. )

Without purpose and a history, chemical reactions are meaningless outside of the body's immediately observable action. There are people without any feelings who still smile, laugh and cry. The most obvious example is a psychopath.



And Ravus- have you considered there are real and fairly odd critical points ? At what point do the molecules become discernable as being human in the first place? Even though molecules exist and can be tracked, I seriously doubt that everything biological can be explained only with molecules.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: vampirism]
    #4233853 - 05/29/05 05:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Why do you say that psychopaths don't have feelings? Well you can make them mad, you can make them cry, and they are happy when they kill someone. They have feelings like all of us.

ANd as for prosac, well perhapse it is not a very good drug them, but drugs CAN change actual mood, and can change an pesimist to an optimist in a hour or two.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4234439 - 05/29/05 09:52 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OmEgAx1 said:
Theres a difference between actual sensory input and what youre basically describing as a hallucination, thats completely different states of mind that youre saying to mix together to make someone feel something thats wet, basically dreaming/hallucinating it, rather than have actual sensory input. But if youre talking about externally manipulating the nerves to make you feel wetness, whats your point? Ive felt things that could be felt as wet at first instance, but its the inclusion of all my other senses that tells me that its actually not wetness.




My point is that what you describe as "actual sensory input" is just the sensory input telling you it's actual sensory input.

Do you believe the human mind is absolute? We are relying completely upon the neural pathways in our brains to tell us what's real and what's not, so how can you assume that simply because something exists in our neural pathways it's real?

After all, humans don't know it's a dream when they're sleeping. When you're dreaming, you believe it's real until you wake up. But how do you know that the dream isn't real while you're dreaming?

You don't know, the same way that you don't know whether the water you see and the wetness you feel actually exists outside the neural pathways you're perceiving it in.


Quote:

Morrowind said:
That's wrong. Feelings are real reactions; chemical reactions often occur because of feelings, but they do not create the feelings




Whoa, hold on a second. Feelings create chemical reactions? Where are these feelings located then? They're obviously not located in our brain, because our brain is just an assortment of chemical reactions, so where are these illusive feelings that are actually creating chemical reactions?

And if in fact feelings are the cause and not the effect of chemical reactions, why do chemical reactions even exist? If indeed, feelings are the cause as you say, they must exist external of molecules, and in that aspect setting off chemical reactions isn't even needed.

Quote:

have you considered there are real and fairly odd critical points ? At what point do the molecules become discernable as being human in the first place? Even though molecules exist and can be tracked, I seriously doubt that everything biological can be explained only with molecules.




Please tell, what else is there in biology other than molecules and what they form to create? Are you saying that there's some ethereal, unproven aspect like a soul or spirit?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: Ravus]
    #4234522 - 05/29/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Whoa, hold on a second. Feelings create chemical reactions? Where are these feelings located then? They're obviously not located in our brain, because our brain is just an assortment of chemical reactions, so where are these illusive feelings that are actually creating chemical reactions?

And if in fact feelings are the cause and not the effect of chemical reactions, why do chemical reactions even exist? If indeed, feelings are the cause as you say, they must exist external of molecules, and in that aspect setting off chemical reactions isn't even needed.





They're not located anywhere because feelings are abstract. I don't feel angry- something made me angry. Anger is not the end result of my altered bodily function. You might as well ask me where life is located.

If I kill your family, I expect you would be sad among other things. Would the sadness purely be your physical reaction to my action? That suggests if you did not exhibit traits of sadness, you would not be sad. Is a spiritual teacher without feeling, if he takes things as objectively as he can? The chemical reactions form your immediate reaction- any depressive tendencies or otherwise. The sadness would be in your mind.

Here things get a little murkier. Yes, brains are made of molecules. No, brains are not just assembled molecules. If you simply must treat the brain purely as hardware-- maybe a computer of sorts, then the molecules are transmitting electric signals constantly. There is no inherent sadness. There is no sadness in the brain of a dead man. Feelings are personal and important- they're like the Seeming part of the Seeming-Being spectrum. Ultimately they give things purpose, and without purpose you have nothing.


Why do the chemical reactions exist? Simple; evolution. Why else would they exist? They exist because it was advantageous to physically react to emotion ( which modern man seems to be moving away from! Pfft). Don't tell me it would be advantageous to evolve emotion because, like I said, emotion is not physical.



Quote:


Please tell, what else is there in biology other than molecules and what they form to create? Are you saying that there's some ethereal, unproven aspect like a soul or spirit?





I'm saying it's utterly stupid to think you can describe something so intricate, delicate and personal using such a basic and archaic system. You might as well learn to draw a tree by drawing each cell of a tree out. Yes, brains are made of molecules, super. You could pinpoint what each one does, and still come up with nothing of significance.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do Molecules Have Feelings? [Re: vampirism]
    #4234576 - 05/29/05 10:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The chemical reactions form your immediate reaction- any depressive tendencies or otherwise. The sadness would be in your mind.




So the mind is something different from the brain? What evidence is there of this?

Where does the abstract mind spring from if not the physical brain? And if the abstract mind is just an advantegeous evolutionary interpretation of the physical brain, which I believe and seems the most correct with our current knowledge, then sadness would indeed be purely physical chemical reactions in your brain. If those reactions did not occur, you wouldn't feel sad about the death of your family.

Quote:

There is no sadness in the brain of a dead man. Feelings are personal and important- they're like the Seeming part of the Seeming-Being spectrum. Ultimately they give things purpose, and without purpose you have nothing.




There is no sadness in the brain of a dead man because physically his body stopped functioning in a way to make his molecules create emotion.

If it is as you say, and feelings are more than just chemical reactions, and the mind is more than the brain, where does the mind of dead man go? After all, the mind is separate from the brain, so why doesn't he just go on feeling emotions?

We create our own purpose; external to our subjective reality, there is indeed nothing. There I agree with you.

Quote:

Why do the chemical reactions exist? Simple; evolution. Why else would they exist? They exist because it was advantageous to physically react to emotion ( which modern man seems to be moving away from! Pfft). Don't tell me it would be advantageous to evolve emotion because, like I said, emotion is not physical.





Emotion didn't occur by evolution? How did this illusive emotion suddenly spring up then? Chemical reactions exist not because they react to some abstract separate emotion that doesn't exist, but because they are emotion. That's like saying the hardware on a computer followed the laws of evolving technology but the software that is created on the hardware doesn't.

But the hardware and the software are not separate. The software is indeed occuring entirely within the circuits of the computer, just like our emotions are occuring entirely within the circuits of our mind.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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