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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Ethics And Downloading Music 
#4232589 - 05/29/05 05:48 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Lots of people do it; most don't see anything wrong with it.
I say it is theft, and I'd like to see someone argue otherwise.
When you buy music (or software, e-books, or any other copyright electronic intellectual property) you sign an implicit contract with the holder of the copyright not to give copies to others. That this agreement is essentially unenforceable doesn't absolve you from keeping your word. When you give copies to others, you break your word.
For the record, I download stuff too, but unlike many others, I'm honest with myself and acknowledge that I'm a thief.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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 SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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 Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232617 - 05/29/05 06:34 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Ill play devils advocate.....
there is a pretty big gray area here, for instance: what if I have bought the cd and it was stolen from my car, would it still be theft if even though I had paid for the intellectual property but now could not enjoy it? I doubt even musicians with downloadable songs would object to me downloading their music after I had already paid for it.
The VCR used to be looked at the same way as Limewire and Kazaa. The movie companies and television stations were outraged that people could now record their intellectual property whenever they wanted to, but in the end it revolutionized imaged media.
What if someone said "hey, psilocyberin, you gotta check out this band "Douchebag and the vinegars" they fuckin rock!", and I go download 3-4 of their songs, enjoy it, and go buy their album. If I dont enjoy it, i delete the files... where is the theft in that?
Also, say that you went to go see "Douchebag and the Vinegars" perform live, and you paid 25 dollars to hear 74 minutes of music from them, would it be theft if I brought a microphone and recording equipment?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232667 - 05/29/05 07:12 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Being a thief is natural, if you want to look deeply enough into it.
You are talking about this societys rules against stealing material wealth. It's up to you. I choose not to do it in this case. That doesn't make me different than you. You decide what your personal ethics are here. You are honest enough to admit the truth. I like that.  
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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the_phoenix
Stranger
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4232674 - 05/29/05 07:17 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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I'm OK with it because I believe that music is art and that art should be free. If people want to donate to artists then that's great, but it shouldn't be an obligation. I've made a few pieces of music and plan to explore this area more in the future, and I'm grateful for the Internet which allows me to get my music out to the people free of charge. I certainly am not interested in signing with a recording company--having the nature of my work influenced and limited, being rushed, being driven more by money, and not even making any net profit unless I 'make it big'.
I can understand that, in a superficial society, superficial commodities of various types, which help structure the society, are subject to copyright. Hehehe, let the little system implode upon itself I say. "One-click e-shoping" is under copyright along with many tiny computerized operations which cannot clearly be isolated or defined, nor their original inventors pinpointed. Thoughts have become copyrighted, and the invention of new things, too similar to or expanding upon old things, hampered.
Copyright maintains fragmentation and, as it becomes applied more and more precisely to a system increasingly understood to be interconnected, is not sustainable. It's a structure ensuring that those with money retain their wealth, and when applied to areas such as art wherein money is not the primary aim, its laughability is highlighted.
Copyright works against spontenaity, against the creation of magnificent works that come naturally to the artist. Artwork that's coincidentally too similar to past artwork is rendered 'unacceptable', even though all art stems from the same place. Boundaries are defined and enforced through copyright. Humanity's collective unconscious is ignored, as is the fact of natural ownership. Everything is essentially natural and should not be subject to entitlement. The idea of arbitrary individual creation, that apparently allows even the smallest little guy to rise to the top in a capitalistic society, is reinforced.
If old techniques cannot be applied in new and improved ways, because they are not available for legal use, then we cannot as a civilization advance. Old out-of-date processes are maintained to hold the market back qualitatively, in favour of amassing more money. So much great technology is held back from the masses so that obsolete and limiting technology, rendered essential to have in contemporary culture, and that rich businesspeople have a large and secure stake in, may be considered "leading edge".
Evolution is being retarded. It is essentially a natural process evolving through fractal repetition that copyright hampers. Copyright mocks ascetism by saying material and wealth-related things of all sorts are of such value so as to warrant protection over their ownership. It promotes a stagnant society driven by consummerism. It becomes (a hollow) goal in itself as people strive to invent something not useful, but something that will market well, that can be copyrighted and ridden for all the $$$ it's worth. Copyright gives people unjust power/influence over other people, makes the masses out purely as consumers who are meant to support the luxury of the elite.
How justly, after all, is the idea of copyright enforced? Whoever has the money to defend their copyright claims in court will likely prevail. Small companies are out of luck, like small computer companies that cannot create any technology because every single damn process between 1s and 0s is under copyright to big companies like Microsoft. I do not approve of forced centrilization around things arbitrarily deemed valuable. I hope one day I don't wake up to discover the workings of my brain, all too similar to those of computers, have been deemed subject to copyright. Perhaps we shall be taxed in order to think, so perhaps it's best not to think about the problem at all. 
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232685 - 05/29/05 07:28 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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you should see the situation here in Croatia.
Most of the town where I live has about 2-3 windows serial numbers, and I'm serious, I'm talking about homes, firms mostly do everything by the book.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/29/05 07:35 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: the_phoenix]
#4232701 - 05/29/05 07:39 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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I'm OK with it because I believe that music is art and that art should be free.
What gives you the right to make that call for someone else's work? Someone who perhaps depends on the income from his creative work to live?
Further, if I give you a copy of my original music and ask for your promise to keep it to yourself, do you feel it right to break that promise? You agree to this implicitly when you purchase a copyrighted work, you know.
Do you break promises in other areas of life too?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232722 - 05/29/05 07:58 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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"I'm honest with myself and acknowledge that I'm a thief."
An honest thief. Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Apparently you keep stealing, because -
A. It's easy and the risk of getting caught is very low.
B. It's cheaper than buying CDs
C. Lots of other people do it who think it's OK
D. All of the above
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232742 - 05/29/05 08:09 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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We're not discussing why I personally download; we can get into that, but it's the subject of a protracted debate better suited to another thread.
We're discussing whether or not it is right (ethical) to do.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232745 - 05/29/05 08:10 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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I have two choices right here right now: buy a CD for every song that I want to listen to, spend LOTS of money, and spend my life not listening to music I like, or take it since it is right in front of my nose, and I don't harm anyone. Those people won't starve because I downlaod their music. The fact that I can find their music on Winmx or Kazaa is a sign that they have or could have a proche probably already.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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and I don't harm anyone
No? Is not taking something from someone who has not given it to you harming them?
Those people won't starve because I downlaod their music
Using this logic, taking a few bucks from my neighbor's wallet when he's not looking is alright because he won't starve over it. Neither is it wrong to steal a pair of pants from the store because nobody will starve over it. Neither is robbing a bank, for that matter, because no one will starve over it.
The fact that I can find their music on Winmx or Kazaa is a sign that they have or could have a proche probably already
This is quite a leap of rationalization. You don't know anything about the artist; he could be rich, or struggling to write music to pay the bills. How does his bank statement change the ethics of taking something he did not give you?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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CaRnAgECaNdY
Tool's groupie
Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 11,505
Loc: Billy Howerdel's closet 
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232752 - 05/29/05 08:16 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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I only download until I buy what I want. Everything I've bought, I've downloaded in the past.
There may be a few very old songs that i can't find anywhere that I have on my computer.
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The secret to being funny is to say smart things stupidly, or is it stupid things smartly? Whatever..it's not rocket surgery...or something like that.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232780 - 05/29/05 08:34 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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"We're discussing whether or not it is right (ethical) to do."
Of course it's not ethical, why would stealing be ethical?
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232786 - 05/29/05 08:35 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Of course it's not ethical, why would stealing be ethical?
Several in this thread have already tried to make the case that there's nothing wrong with it. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232787 - 05/29/05 08:37 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
and I don't harm anyone
No? Is not taking something from someone who has not given it to you harming them?
Those people won't starve because I downlaod their music
Using this logic, taking a few bucks from my neighbor's wallet when he's not looking is alright because he won't starve over it. Neither is it wrong to steal a pair of pants from the store because nobody will starve over it. Neither is robbing a bank, for that matter, because no one will starve over it.
The fact that I can find their music on Winmx or Kazaa is a sign that they have or could have a proche probably already
This is quite a leap of rationalization. You don't know anything about the artist; he could be rich, or struggling to write music to pay the bills. How does his bank statement change the ethics of taking something he did not give you?
I'm not saying that this is moral, I'm just saying I do it
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232801 - 05/29/05 08:49 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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I think younger people who have grown up with computers and MP3 players and file swapping logically view this as something less than stealing.
Us older folk who had albums and maybe made a few cassettes that we played in the car grew up in a whole different world. Music was money to us. So now, we tend to view downloading as stealing.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232811 - 05/29/05 08:56 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Even today, nothing can replace the feeling of buying an album. It is a ritual in itself. You have a hard copy of the music, the cover, the little book inside etc.
So when I really want to have something, I buy an album. For example, I like listening to Vangelis, and It just doesn't feel in place when I'm listening to mp3's. Listening to original music is much more, you know, the real thing, (don't know how to express myself differently)
I download music for casual listening. For example I hear some old 60's song in some movie, and I want to listen to it, so I simply download it.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Annom
※※※※※※
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6,367
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 24 days, 1 hour
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232824 - 05/29/05 09:04 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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I agree. It is theft.
I also download stuff and I'm honest with myself and acknowledge that I'm a thief.
There is one thing I always tell myself: I'm a poor student and I don't have much money. I don't have the money to buy many CD's and DVD's. I would never ever buy everything I download. Downloading something I would never ever buy is not a real theft. Photoshop is way too expensive for me and I would never buy it so it doesn't do any harm to Adobe. I'm sure I will buy much more if I have more money and I do buy some DVD's now if I want to support them.
I download music and moves and I buy books  
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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"nothing can replace the feeling of buying an album"
Amen. The best news, is that albums are far better sonically than CDs. I have compared several of the same recordings I have on vinyl and CD and the difference is staggering. The album always sounds way better. And my CD player is top of the line.
The myth that CDs don't skip is just that. I have had many more CDs skip over the years than albums.
The only thing CDs offer is convenience, portability, and car playability.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 09:37 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232906 - 05/29/05 09:40 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quick tangent: CDs reproduce the studio sound much better than any vinyl record. You may prefer the sound of vinyl, but that's not because it's a more faithful reproduction, rather it's because you like the subtle, mellow distortion it introduces.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232911 - 05/29/05 09:40 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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It's not theft. It's copyright infringement.
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