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InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe
    #4232494 - 05/29/05 03:53 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Most people on our boards either live in the USA or Europe. There is lively debate going on between them on for instance this forum.

Lets look at the mainstream cultural traits of Europe and the USA, and discuss perceived blindspots and weaknesses in each other's and our own cultures. As the dutch saying goes: "one tends to see the splinter in another's eye but not the beam in one's own" it will be easier to point out each others perceived cultural weaknesses then to admit their own, so there will be some intensity to this thread.

Let us TRY VERY HARD to NOT get personal or needlessly insulting. These are delicate topics with a high risk of trolling and derailing. Let's keep our lead pipes in the toolbox and lets discuss.
We get the rare opportunity to hear outsider views of our own cultures here which, with reflection and the willingness to listen without prejudice allows for transcending our own points of view in favor of more balanced ones.

Who wants to kick off the discussion?


PS: if you're for instance Japanese, Nigerian or an Iraqi feel free to point out the weakspots you perceive in either or both cultures.
It would help if we all started our posts by stating from which culture we're speaking. Me, I'm European/Dutch.


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Edited by Asante (05/29/05 03:57 AM)

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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Asante]
    #4232603 - 05/29/05 06:08 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
As the dutch saying goes: "one tends to see the splinter in another's eye but not the beam in one's own"



:grin: it was jesus who said that, not a dutchman. anyway, i'll most definitely join the discussion - being half indian/half american, but having lived in europe for the past 3 years, it's a discussion i find very interesting. but right now i have to go clean up the house i was living in, because the owner wants to move back in next week...

i'll be back later today.

:rasta:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Krishna]
    #4232663 - 05/29/05 07:10 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

it was jesus who said that, not a dutchman.




That overturns the whole notion of where Jesus came from, doesn't it? :evil:
Nah seriously its a proverb here, but appearantly straight from the bible.

I bet the proverb "Who spreads their legs, spreads cosy-ness" isn't from the bible :grin:
Actually its also used throughout Germany and is based on the observation that relaxed people don't cross their legs in conversation and tend to be the light of the party.
It could also reflect an ingrained appreciation of hoes, but my granny used to say it so I guess it's the former.

Well if nobody kicks it off, allow me to start.

"I often notice that USA people tend to polarize topics when debating. When a debate for instance is about sexual orientation you can have 100 posts that use the words Gay and Straight, yet the word or concept Bisexual often doesnt even enter the picture. A certain tendency to polarize topics into black/white contrasts which you either strongly are for or against. I think this has something to do with the two-party system of politics that tends to polarize issues in a duality of "right" and "wrong".

In line with this i notice a tendency that Europeans in a discussion tend to be exchange-oriented wheras USA people tend to be solution-oriented. A european looks at the schedule and misses the bus, an American jumps on the bus and discovers it drives off in the wrong direction  :wink:

So to kick it off: I believe Europeans tend to be indecisive while Americans tend to jump to conclusions."


I know i'm broadly generalizing, but thats what this thread is about: discussing observed or assumed generalities in the mainstream cultures. That its not wrong to voice generalities is a given for this thread.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Asante]
    #4232796 - 05/29/05 08:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think I have a problem with Americans' idea of what liberty and security are.

To be free, for americans, is to be autonomous, not depending on anyone else but themselves, and not be vulnerable to anything thats beyond one's control. And being autonomous rhymes with having lots of material possessions and wealth. The more wealth you have, the more independent you are in the world, the more you are in control, and therefore the more you feel secure.

This idea of what freedom is seems to be based on materialist egotistical based notions, which only concerns the individual and not the people around him, when really freedom is a philosophical notion that requires one to acknowledge other people's freedom as well. But individualism is part of american culture, and i don't think there's nothing much we can do about that.

In Europe we have a different idea of what freedom and security are. Freedom lies not in autonomy, but in interdependentness, in embededdness. Here, we are free together, not individually. What brings us security is belonging - not belongings.



Also, the american way of life emphasizes economic growth (which IMO can only bring immediate satisfaction, but in the long run it will bring chaos, see my post:  Chaotic future of economical expansion  ), personal wealth, and independence.

But the european way focuses more on sustainable development, quality of life, and interdependence.




Let's not even mention the differences in the interpretation of Human Rights!  :smirk:


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Registered: 04/30/03
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Asante]
    #4232872 - 05/29/05 09:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

there is a lot of extreme sexual perversion in Europe. for example in Germany especially there is a lot of guys who like to watch women pee in public.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4232885 - 05/29/05 09:28 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
To be free, for americans, is to be autonomous, not depending on anyone else but themselves, and not be vulnerable to anything thats beyond one's control.

In Europe we have a different idea of what freedom and security are. Freedom lies not in autonomy, but in interdependentness, in embededdness. Here, we are free together, not individually.




First of all, let me say that I am irked when I hear Europeans (not just on this board) seem to hold themselves and their nations up as beacons of what everybody should emulate and at the same time they seem to insinuate that us Americans are troglodytes.

And, let me say that America is home to about every political ideology imaginable. There are Leftist Anarchists, Leftist Socialists, Centrist Democrats, Rightist Religious people, and on and on...

However, I do agree that there is an underlying sense of rugged individualism that a lot of Americans seem to admire and aspire to. I have this feeling myself. I am an independent individual who revels in the idea of being able to say what I want to, go where I want to, and be the master of my own destiny (whatever that destiny may be).

Individualism can get lonely though. A sense of community can be lost when a person is focused on themselves. I do not "choose" my freedom over the rest of society in every instance in a selfish manner however. I think that forced altruism doesn't work in making the world better. It is just another form of slavery. Free individuals can be selfish, but they can also be caring. And when a free individual helps other people it is because they have decided to do it and the feeling is genuine instead of forced and fake.

http://fdncenter.org/learn/faqs/html/givingstats.html


The American Association of Fundraising Counsel (AAFRC) Trust for Philanthropy, publishers of "Giving USA," released their estimations of total charitable contributions in the U.S. for the year 2003. Total giving is estimated at nearly $241 billion for the year 2003


Quote:

exclusive58 said:
And being autonomous rhymes with having lots of material possessions and wealth. The more wealth you have, the more independent you are in the world, the more you are in control, and therefore the more you feel secure.

This idea of what freedom is seems to be based on materialist egotistical based notions





I view freedom as a lack of encumbrances to one's mental, social, political, and physical life. Ironically, possessions and wealth can become encumbrances.

And, I have to disagree with your basic idea here. I don't think the American notions of freedom and wealth are intertwined as much as you think. I view my economic life and my freedom as very seperate. Money can make things physically easier, but it does not grant freedom.

It is annoying to be automatically judged because you belong to a certain nation or group. It is very easy to apply stereotypes without giving a person a chance. Although, I tend to sometimes do that myself (such as thinking French people are rude because of my trip to Paris). When it starts to happen, I try to rectify it. However, engaging in absolute thinking (everybody from a certain group is a certain way) makes classification of the world easier. I have a feeling that Man has been engaging in stereotyping since the beginning of time.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4232919 - 05/29/05 09:44 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

However, I do agree that there is an underlying sense of rugged individualism that a lot of Americans seem to admire and aspire to.

In what way? Most people I know depend on the government for basic infrastructure.

Unfortunately most people in the States fail to understand what true individualism is. They fail to see the government monopolies. They fail to see the corporatism.

I see the US as much more socialist that capitalist.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: newuser1492]
    #4232965 - 05/29/05 10:06 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
However, I do agree that there is an underlying sense of rugged individualism that a lot of Americans seem to admire and aspire to.

In what way? Most people I know depend on the government for basic infrastructure.

Unfortunately most people in the States fail to understand what true individualism is. They fail to see the government monopolies. They fail to see the corporatism.

I see the US as much more socialist that capitalist.




Well, this rugged sense of individualism is not always adhered to and there are contradictions.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4233058 - 05/29/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
I think I have a problem with Americans' idea of what liberty and security are.

To be free, for americans, is to be autonomous, not depending on anyone else but themselves, and not be vulnerable to anything thats beyond one's control. And being autonomous rhymes with having lots of material possessions and wealth. The more wealth you have, the more independent you are in the world, the more you are in control, and therefore the more you feel secure.

This idea of what freedom is seems to be based on materialist egotistical based notions, which only concerns the individual and not the people around him, when really freedom is a philosophical notion that requires one to acknowledge other people's freedom as well. But individualism is part of american culture, and i don't think there's nothing much we can do about that.

In Europe we have a different idea of what freedom and security are. Freedom lies not in autonomy, but in interdependentness, in embededdness. Here, we are free together, not individually. What brings us security is belonging - not belongings.



Similarly, I hate the European notion that you can be free without having the right to the wealth you earn through your own labor.  To forcibly take the fruits of one's labor is to steal the labor that made it, which is tantamount to slavery.  We're not perfect in this area either, but there is at least some recognition here that people should keep what they earn.

And we do have an intricate web of interdependence.  It's called the market, and it works better than any socialist redistribution scheme ever devised.

Quote:

Also, the american way of life emphasizes economic growth (which IMO can only bring immediate satisfaction, but in the long run it will bring chaos, see my post:  Chaotic future of economical expansion  ), personal wealth, and independence.

But the european way focuses more on sustainable development, quality of life, and interdependence.



I agree that we shouldn't be using the GDP as our main economic indicator.  But really, if you Europeans are soooo altruistic and not concerned with economic growth, then what's with the EU?


Quote:

Let's not even mention the differences in the interpretation of Human Rights!  :smirk:



Sure.  You guys had oil contracts with Saddam, whereas we got ours after overthrowing him.  Big whoop.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4233555 - 05/29/05 01:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
First of all, let me say that I am irked when I hear Europeans (not just on this board) seem to hold themselves and their nations up as beacons of what everybody should emulate and at the same time they seem to insinuate that us Americans are troglodytes.
...
It is annoying to be automatically judged because you belong to a certain nation or group.  It is very easy to apply stereotypes without giving a person a chance.




Look, let's get over the "stereotype" arguing because i don't think that any of us are stupid enough to honestly classify ALL americans under one category, and I'm a bit disappointed that you thought that i did that. There will necessarily be things said that will seem like that, because here major aspects of american/european culture will be pointed out, but don't take these "stereotypes" litteraly. Its just easier to say things like that, even though im continously aware that things aren't that easy. If it seems that i make generalizations, i'm sorry, don't feel personally offended, because that's not what i mean to do.



Quote:

And, let me say that America is home to about every political ideology imaginable.  There are Leftist Anarchists, Leftist Socialists, Centrist Democrats, Rightist Religious people, and on and on...




Really? I thought ALL americans were either Democrats or Republicans  :smirk:
Not, but I'd rather have a minimum of 5 or 6 major political parties represented during elections, than only 2. And i think that the bipolarity of american political life is something that we can all agree to criticize and say it shouldn't be like that, no?


Quote:

However, I do agree that there is an underlying sense of rugged individualism that a lot of Americans seem to admire and aspire to.  I have this feeling myself.  I am an independent individual who revels in the idea of being able to say what I want to, go where I want to, and be the master of my own destiny (whatever that destiny may be).


 

ummm, do you think that only priviledged americans have these rights?..

Quote:

I think that forced altruism doesn't work in making the world better.  It is just another form of slavery.  Free individuals can be selfish, but they can also be caring.  And when a free individual helps other people it is because they have decided to do it and the feeling is genuine instead of forced and fake.




Yup, America has a big generous heart, the biggest in the world.  :thumbup:
But how much easier would it be to criticize it if it didn't?  :wink:


Quote:

I view freedom as a lack of encumbrances to one's mental, social, political, and physical life.  Ironically, possessions and wealth can become encumbrances.




You know what, according to your view of freedom, PEOPLE can become encumbrances to your freedom as well. So there we have it, the law of the strongest, the law of the jungle. If people get in your way to what you feel you are free to do, and if you have enough money/power, then you can find a way to get these encumbrances out of the way.

I don't really know what i'm suggesting here, maybe i'm trying to criticize unchained liberalism and its negative effects on society.
In france, extreme liberalism is viewed as something ill-fated, and it is almost automatically associated with america.

I guess i'm just saying that the american concept of freedom, is a concept of personal freedom that doesn't acknowledge other people's freedom, it is a totally individual notion. In europe, freedom goes more like this; "You are free as long as you don't step on someone else's freedom". And there are laws to make sure you don't do so, and this is the big aspect of socialist europe that is not seen in capitalist america.

The american way of life is deeply personal and little concerned with the rest of humanity. The european way is more expansive and systematic, and therefore more bound to the welfare of the planet.


Quote:

And, I have to disagree with your basic idea here.  I don't think the American notions of freedom and wealth are intertwined as much as you think.  I view my economic life and my freedom as very seperate.  Money can make things physically easier, but it does not grant freedom.




Well i'd be tempted to say that you are one very rare kind of american!

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233591 - 05/29/05 02:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Similarly, I hate the European notion that you can be free without having the right to the wealth you earn through your own labor. To forcibly take the fruits of one's labor is to steal the labor that made it, which is tantamount to slavery. We're not perfect in this area either, but there is at least some recognition here that people should keep what they earn.




as ususal..you have it all backwards...it is in america that..wealth is more or less forcibly taken from the hands that produce it and redistributed to a few feudalist robber-barons...the europen "socialist redistribution scheme" is meant to prevent this situation..or at least partially correct it...in europe..they steal from you and you steal from them...in america..they steal from you...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4233608 - 05/29/05 02:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

America's system is not perfect. The "robber barons" gained land monopolies and special favors from the government that allowed them to exploit the labor of others involuntarily. However, European socialism does not correct this. Rather, it responds to injustice with injustice by arbitrarily taking wealth from one class and giving it to another, without any consideration for how that money is earned.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233629 - 05/29/05 02:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Similarly, I hate the European notion that you can be free without having the right to the wealth you earn through your own labor.  To forcibly take the fruits of one's labor is to steal the labor that made it, which is tantamount to slavery.  We're not perfect in this area either, but there is at least some recognition here that people should keep what they earn.




I don't know man, paying taxes is part of being a citizen..and you're far from being a slave if you pay them.


Quote:

And we do have an intricate web of interdependence.  It's called the market, and it works better than any socialist redistribution scheme ever devised.




Damn, you guys are so lucky to have a market  :smirk:



Quote:

I agree that we shouldn't be using the GDP as our main economic indicator.  But really, if you Europeans are soooo altruistic and not concerned with economic growth, then what's with the EU?




I'm not saying we aren't concerned with economical growth, that would not be true, but the EU is supposed to make it easier for Europe to develop and evolve TOGETHER, which obviously requires economical growth. That means that all these poor eastern european countries, we want them to reach our level. Like what happened with Spain and Portugal when they entered the EU, and the results are amazing. And when all countries are sufficiently developped, THATS where we need to reach a harmonious balance and stop economical growth.

The EU is in everyone's interest in europe and it is altruistic because the wellfare of all the countries' people is what is aimed, and this while respecting the environment.



Quote:

Quote:

Let's not even mention the differences in the interpretation of Human Rights!  :smirk:



Sure.  You guys had oil contracts with Saddam, whereas we got ours after overthrowing him.  Big whoop.




Ya, going to war for oil is soo much more respectful in regards to human rights than having diplomatic negociations for it.. :rolleyes:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4233650 - 05/29/05 02:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Similarly, I hate the European notion that you can be free without having the right to the wealth you earn through your own labor.  To forcibly take the fruits of one's labor is to steal the labor that made it, which is tantamount to slavery.  We're not perfect in this area either, but there is at least some recognition here that people should keep what they earn.




I don't know man, paying taxes is part of being a citizen..and you're far from being a slave if you pay them.



Prove your case, sir.


Quote:

Quote:

And we do have an intricate web of interdependence.  It's called the market, and it works better than any socialist redistribution scheme ever devised.




Damn, you guys are so lucky to have a market  :smirk:



Indeed, it's great to have a market.  It would be much nicer if it were a free market, but a bunch of socialist and corporatist assholes keep ruining our chances of that.

Quote:

Quote:

I agree that we shouldn't be using the GDP as our main economic indicator.  But really, if you Europeans are soooo altruistic and not concerned with economic growth, then what's with the EU?




I'm not saying we aren't concerned with economical growth, that would not be true, but the EU is supposed to make it easier for Europe to develop and evolve TOGETHER, which obviously requires economical growth. That means that all these poor eastern european countries, we want them to reach our level. Like what happened with Spain and Portugal when they entered the EU, and the results are amazing. And when all countries are sufficiently developped, THATS where we need to reach a harmonious balance and stop economical growth.



How's this different than NAFTA?  Both of them are simply "free trade" agreements between various different nations to prosper together.  But why stop there?  Why not have global free trade to help other countries become more prosperous?

Quote:

The EU is in everyone's interest in europe and it is altruistic because the wellfare of all the countries' people is what is aimed, and this while respecting the environment.



What environment?  Last I checked, Europe was a bunch of centuries-old buildings, and very young trees.  Here in America, we've got very old trees and very young buildings.

Quote:

Quote:

Let's not even mention the differences in the interpretation of Human Rights!  :smirk:



Sure.  You guys had oil contracts with Saddam, whereas we got ours after overthrowing him.  Big whoop.




Ya, going to war for oil is soo much more respectful in regards to human rights than having diplomatic negociations for it.. :rolleyes:



We're talking about diplomatic relationships with a genocidal dictator here.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233783 - 05/29/05 03:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

USA

Weakness: Inability to embrace nationalism. Cowering to liberal idealogy of world peace and other hogwash that has proven to be illogical and unrealistic. Inability for us to view the history of the world as a power struggle between nations, and hence only focusing on the immediate threats. Failure to maintain our dominance in years, and hopefully centuries to come on a global scale.

Strengths: Our patriotism and our embracement of rugged individualism.

Europe

I can't give weakness and strengths because I wish doom to their entire continent therefore I can't rationally decide whats best for them because frankly, I wish the worst. But...

Mentally weak, which is a good thing for the U.S. The majority is blinded by thoughts of world peace and "progressive" dogma, but at the same time they let their leaders guide them into a modern nation-state thats sole purpose is to consolidate power in an effort to match the U.S.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: looner2]
    #4233851 - 05/29/05 03:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I can't give weakness and strengths because I wish doom to their entire continent therefore I can't rationally decide whats best for them because frankly, I wish the worst. But...

Mentally weak, which is a good thing for the U.S. The majority is blinded by thoughts of world peace and "progressive" dogma, but at the same time they let their leaders guide them into a modern nation-state thats sole purpose is to consolidate power in an effort to match the U.S.




:thumbup:

Europe is indeed weak and socialist. Many of the countries there are socialist and are for strong gun control, or even want to rid guns. Economically and socially, they do not seem very individualistic, and support welfare, high taxes in exchange for government programs, and other failed notions.

People don't realize the world and its nations are just examples of the will to power and natural selection, but indeed they are, and if the U.S. doesn't act soon we'll be at the mercy to Asia and socialist Europe.

Assume an isolationist policy when we must, but when our survival is threatened in the long-term, take action and make sure we're the victor in the end. Americans don't realize that now is a time of change, and if we don't do something soon we won't be the victor.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Ravus]
    #4234215 - 05/29/05 06:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ermmm...Why cant we be friends?

No need for Victors,i think that whole "survival of the ruthless" notion was usefull when we were jumping all (Europeans and..Now-Americans Europeans) from tree to tree ,but now its getting pretty outdated.

Im European so let me giveyou my view

USA
Positives : Multicultural influence and quite good intergration so far of different races living there.A civilisation at its upheaval,just be carefull of the "Fall" (As a Greek ,we suffered that Centuries ago).I also happen to like your accents

Negatives: Sometimes i think that Americans dont think for themselves as much as they should do.Not enough really reactive elements to give a shock to those governing the place...I dont think the educational system is what it should be + there seem to be many overzealous christians (bordelining on fanatism that is).Overperscription of opioids and benzos :laugh:

Europe

Positives: Generally people can think for themselves,you tend to see more Culture in Europe.It might be my idea but people seem friendlier..Stronger currency :P

Negatives :Still politicians run this place...Not enough balls to stand up to them.Usually Europeans look at Americans as if they are "stupid" (In Greece American tourists are considered gullible,sorry) and this disrespect agravvates relationships + doesnt let the American people be truely evaluated and not stereotypically labeled.Europeans (especially politicians) sometimes give me the impresion of living in the shade of America and wasting too much energy to be...lemme use Ravus's words "Victors".

Well thats all ,i couldnt formulate it well and i got a bit entangled on their inbetween relationship taking into account politics as well...

So...Why cant we be friends?

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4234358 - 05/29/05 07:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
I'd rather have a minimum of 5 or 6 major political parties represented during elections, than only 2. And i think that the bipolarity of american political life is something that we can all agree to criticize and say it shouldn't be like that, no?




There are't just two candidates in every election. I remember when I went to vote in the recent presidential election and I saw 6 candidates running for president. I voted Libertarian. However, the media does seem to pay too much attention to the Republicans and the Democrats and not enough to the other parties.

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
However, I do agree that there is an underlying sense of rugged individualism that a lot of Americans seem to admire and aspire to.

exclusive58 said:
ummm, do you think that only priviledged americans have these rights?..




No. Everybody should have access to these rights.


Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
I view freedom as a lack of encumbrances to one's mental, social, political, and physical life. Ironically, possessions and wealth can become encumbrances.

exclusive58 said:
You know what, according to your view of freedom, PEOPLE can become encumbrances to your freedom as well. So there we have it, the law of the strongest, the law of the jungle. If people get in your way to what you feel you are free to do, and if you have enough money/power, then you can find a way to get these encumbrances out of the way.




Huh? Just because one likes individualism and the ability to be free does not mean they don't give a shit about their fellow man.

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
I don't really know what i'm suggesting here, maybe i'm trying to criticize unchained liberalism and its negative effects on society.
In france, extreme liberalism is viewed as something ill-fated, and it is almost automatically associated with america.




We must have different views on the word "liberalism". I have gathered that France is much more liberal than America.

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
I guess i'm just saying that the american concept of freedom, is a concept of personal freedom that doesn't acknowledge other people's freedom, it is a totally individual notion.




I can see where you would get that idea. I see freedom as the ability to do what you want to do. And I also see this type of individual based society as being more natural and less stifling than a forced communal feeling. Not that anything is wrong with a communal feeling though.

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
In europe, freedom goes more like this; "You are free as long as you don't step on someone else's freedom". And there are laws to make sure you don't do so, and this is the big aspect of socialist europe that is not seen in capitalist america.




Most American laws follow that premise. Some don't(American marijuana law being the most obvious example).

And America is pretty socialist as it is (not as much as France though I'm sure). If you are poor or old you get all kinds of free stuff in America. Of the 2.5 trillion dollar American federal government budget, at least a trillion of that was given to poor and old people in the form of services and goods.

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
The american way of life is deeply personal and little concerned with the rest of humanity. The european way is more expansive and systematic, and therefore more bound to the welfare of the planet.




If the American way of life is deeply personal and not concerned with the rest of hmanity, why do Americans and American businesses give so much to charity?

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4234578 - 05/29/05 08:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I guess i'm just saying that the american concept of freedom, is a concept of personal freedom that doesn't acknowledge other people's freedom, it is a totally individual notion. In europe, freedom goes more like this; "You are free as long as you don't step on someone else's freedom". And there are laws to make sure you don't do so, and this is the big aspect of socialist europe that is not seen in capitalist america.





I don't follow this line of thought one bit.
Freedom means being able to act as one wishes so long as one does not interfere with the freedom of another.

Whereas France is under their version of martial law, with random traffic stops and ID checks, last I heard?  That's not freedom -- that's security at the expense of freedom.  That's the sort of thing many people in America get up-in-arms about.  We want true freedom, not freedom under a parental government, not the freedom of a child.
Of course, there's plenty of Americans who are all in favor of such a beast...  but.. meh.  I don't like those guys :wink:

Quote:

In Greece American tourists are considered gullible,sorry




That's fine..  in America, ALL tourists are considered gullible :wink:


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Invisiblenewuser1492
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4234718 - 05/29/05 09:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

That's fine.. in America, ALL tourists are considered gullible

In America EVERYONE is gullible. Might be the same in other countries but I can only speak for what I know.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: looner2]
    #4234732 - 05/29/05 09:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Europe

I can't give weakness and strengths because I wish doom to their entire continent therefore I can't rationally decide whats best for them because frankly, I wish the worst. But...

Mentally weak, which is a good thing for the U.S. The majority is blinded by thoughts of world peace and "progressive" dogma, but at the same time they let their leaders guide them into a modern nation-state thats sole purpose is to consolidate power in an effort to match the U.S.



:rotfl:

Not that I agree with that, but that made my day.  Thanks. :lol:


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Asante]
    #4234737 - 05/29/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

im somewhere in between american and european- im both and thus neither.

however, if i had to stereotype

Americans: gullible, naive, naive, naive
Europeans: active, confused, corrupt

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: vampirism]
    #4234759 - 05/29/05 09:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

As a general stereotype I think Europeans feel they're smarter than everyone else. Americans may feel they're better than everyone else but they (with their "gitrdone" attitude) could give a fuck less about being intelligent.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: newuser1492]
    #4234776 - 05/29/05 10:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
As a general stereotype I think Europeans feel they're smarter than everyone else. Americans may feel they're better than everyone else but they (with their "gitrdone" attitude) could give a fuck less about being intelligent.



I think that sums it up quite nicely.


p.s. gitrdone!


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: newuser1492]
    #4234810 - 05/29/05 10:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the reason for that is that Europeans are more interested in their surroundings. To a degree this is purely need based- every european nation has a long, bloody history and is surrounded by countries that would backstab anyone if it benefited them enough. As such, the people are weary and *need* to be ready for whats coming.

In America, sometimes you have a war; so you send people a few thousand miles away to die for you. The one really relevant bloody war was the civil war- and Americans show no more resilience to the effects of it than anyone else; *all* southerners (people who were raised there, not just who lived there) I've met hold some hostility to the Union. Imagine thousands of years of such things piled on from all sides.

Am I saying Europeans ARE smarter? I'd say the average European is smarter than the average American. But besides that, no. Americans don't mind not being the smartest because, honestly, they've never had a taste of it. They pay other people to do the backbone thinking for them.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: vampirism]
    #4234836 - 05/29/05 10:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say the average European is smarter than the average American.

I'd say the average European is better educated than the average American. As to intelligence I find it unlikely that Europeans are actually smarter. A friend of mine from Eastern Europe summed it up best. "Americans can very easily live a mediocre life."

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: newuser1492]
    #4234848 - 05/29/05 10:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What do you mean by actually smarter? I don't think there is any genetic advantage in Europe. Neither side is *limited* under ideal circumstances.


Better educated, eh? Why? Europeans are more willing to learn ( because they need to, but still), which gives them more intelligence IMO, as I don't define intelligence as being IQ.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: vampirism]
    #4234860 - 05/29/05 10:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What do you mean by actually smarter?

Higher IQ. Better ability to learn.

Better educated, eh? Why?

All I can do is speak from experience. Every European I have spoken to has had a much greater understanding of both history and current events than the average American.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: newuser1492]
    #4234941 - 05/29/05 11:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Higher IQ. Better ability to learn.




Well that's silly then. Most Americans have European, especially Anglo-Saxon, roots. As IQ is largely genetic, there won't be a large difference in a few hundred years, especially considering that people tend to procreate within their own class.

However, the European environment is more suited to developing intelligence into something useful. Are Europeans better at picking out patterns and deducing things? no. Are Europeans more aware and conscious of whats going on? yes.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: vampirism]
    #4235751 - 05/30/05 03:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

My 2 cents about this.

I think america, like was said before, is willing to blatantly violate whatever international Law rules if that serves their interest.

Europe tends to be more respectful of international treaties and such. May be because we don't have as much military power as the US. May be because most european countries only recently got out of dictatorships and/or WWII and have a deepest fear for the violation of these rules than america's general public.

I also think USA's democracy is very old. Institutions got HUGE. Almost like they have a willpower of their own whatever is the party that's ruling the country at the moment.
For example, war has become a direct source of economic growth. History shows a cycle of foreign military intervention from the US regardless of liberals or conservatives. It's safe to say there isn't a period of 10 years without at least one foreign american military intervention (either alone or with the colaboration of NATO). The weapons manufacturers, which are a big industry and a powerful lobby there, need the war so their business doesn't come to a halt.

Not to say we are saints, as we do also have big weapons industries. Only difference is that instead of doing the dirty work ourselves, we sometimes notice ourselves selling the weapons to less 'orthodox' nations :rolleyes: (which the US also does AFAIK. Hsitory also shows they will than regret and bomb that given country a few years later :wink:)

About economy we are both very similar. Europe tends to be more social though. Both America's and Europe's main focus is economic growth.
But the way i see it, europe is willing to sacrifice a bit more of raw capital to establish a minimum line of social well-being, while the US tends to be more individualistic ("why can't i keep the income from my hard labour, without those IRS bitches come steal my money to give to those lazy ghetto crackwhores").
In practice however the differences aren't big IMO. The biggest difference i know of is healthcare and education which is generally more state-sponsored here than in the US.

In the international theatre, the US seems to be tottaly blinded by economic growth IMO. They'll 'unsign' kyoto, if need be. They'll unsign Rome if need be. They'll invade a country if need be. They'll financiate guerillas (either leftist or rightist, democratic or fascist, depending on their interest) if need be, etc. The EU seems to be more cautious and pondered in that.


Quote:

First of all, let me say that I am irked when I hear Europeans (not just on this board) seem to hold themselves and their nations up as beacons of what everybody should emulate and at the same time they seem to insinuate that us Americans are troglodytes.




This is however true. We are indeed intelectually arrogant and self-righteous in some aspects.

But the US is also arrogant and VERY self-righteous. More in a sheer strength kinda way ("We are powerful, why the hell can't we do the fuck we want without having those damn euros and the UN bitches whining around").
Also the US self-righteousness may involve wars and slaughter.
While euro self-righteousness usually only involves copious amounts of bitching  and eventually economic retaliation (which is rare).

I learned these last few days the some americans tend to see coexistence in the same 'world theater' and aspiration to some richness and quality of life (read, EU, China, India,etc...) as something similar to a deathmatch competition (read, looner's and ravus's posts). Godammit people, chill the fuck out! When will you understand no one wants your power or domination. Just because we do want OUR richness to grow, doesn't mean we want to overthrow you.

Another thing worth mentioning IMO is the typical distrust and fear americans have toward violation of their property. People seem they are capable of shooting someone for merely trespassing. People seem capable of shooting someone for merely stealing their material posession.
That is unthinkable of here. Legitimate defense is legal, but it requires proportionality of means. You can only shoot someone if your life is clearly  at risk.

Oh and the US has an irrational, even psychotic, approach to the drug 'problem'.
With some exceptions, europe seems to be more laid back about that.

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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: esin]
    #4235783 - 05/30/05 04:07 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Also i would say America is more liberal with guns and guns permits...In Europe,at least in my country,it is illegal to have a firearm if not in military or police. One might say "how do you manage to defend yourselves and cope without firearms?" Well...We do. For some Americans it would be unthinkable not to posses a firearm,and i have seen older discussions in this forum that people actually cheered for the right to bear arms.Hell,ive never owned a firearm in my life,and im alright even if many times i tempted my fate in dangerous places with dangerous people.

Sometimes i think America is a more "scared" society than Europe, the vibe it gives of is that "Danger is imminent in america,even in the streets" and that what politicians like Bush capitalize on.

America as we know it today is relatively young compared to Europe,i could say it goes through its "teens" if we compare it to human development. As it becomes more ripe it will be more balanced. What we DO NOT need both in Europe or America is a nationalist movement (some views here expressed something along these lines) because the race to "who is stronger,most vicious ,most rich can bring onli sorrow,war and cultural reatardation. If you love America support a multicultural,tolerant to others envirment...For Mushrooms Sake,dont tear apart the Koran of the Muslims,they too are people with beliefs! If you love Europe,loosen your grip of the throat of the American citizens and strenghten it a bit on unfair politicians (Democrats that behave liek Dictators) throats...If you love Europe and the planet in general put some cornerstones so Europe ,America,Asia,Australia and Africa grow all together happy,respectfull to each other and each ones beliefs...

Guys,we have a planet with limited resources,that is inhabited by people with real feelings no matter if they are black,white,American,read the Koran or the Vedas ,if the drink alcohol or smoke weed...Lets not fuck it up more than it already is!

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Silversoul]
    #4236501 - 05/30/05 11:58 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
America's system is not perfect. The "robber barons" gained land monopolies and special favors from the government that allowed them to exploit the labor of others involuntarily. However, European socialism does not correct this. Rather, it responds to injustice with injustice by arbitrarily taking wealth from one class and giving it to another, without any consideration for how that money is earned.




according to your logic..its injustice if the police return your property after youve been robbed...however..large-scale corporatist swindling is more complex than theft and recovery of personal property.. in this case..europe is about the best we can do...at least in theory..the taxes collected from the plutocrats goes into funding public infrastructure..which in turn creates productive employment..so its not being given away to welfare cheats as the republicans would have you believe...


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Psiloman]
    #4236533 - 05/30/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

These last two posts were good, i agree with both.



Check this out:
The European Dream

I think this is article is a good explanation to why Europe just may be the new beacon for other nations to look up to, just as America once was:

"The European Dream is a beacon of light in a troubled world. It beckons us to a new age of inclusivity, diversity, quality of life, sustainability, universal human rights, the rights of nature, and peace on earth. We Americans used to say that the American Dream is worth dying for. The new European Dream is worth living for."

Edited by exclusive58 (05/30/05 01:19 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4236573 - 05/30/05 12:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"The American Dream, once so coveted(how do you covet a dream?), has increasingly become an object of derision." Yep, that's why we need armed guards at our borders, to keep people from deriding the American Dream. What a fucking moron.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4236595 - 05/30/05 12:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You linked to a posting on a chat room????? From 8 months ago???? Before the frogs cut the nuts off of the EU constitution?????? Cultural ascent?????? Who gives a shit? All that matters is economic ascention.
Catch up kid, the world shows these people to be fools pretty rapidly sometimes.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4236725 - 05/30/05 01:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

calm down man, i changed the link to where the original text can be found for you. that forum was just the first thing i found when i googled for it.

and to me, to covet the american dream is to have a desire to live it.

somehow it doesn't surprise me that the first response i get concerning this text is that the writer is a moron and a fool.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4236783 - 05/30/05 01:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
There aren't just two candidates in every election. I remember when I went to vote in the recent presidential election and I saw 6 candidates running for president. I voted Libertarian. However, the media does seem to pay too much attention to the Republicans and the Democrats and not enough to the other parties.




Ok, but would it be wrong to say that approximatively 90% of the voters voted either for democrats or republicans?

Quote:

We must have different views on the word "liberalism". I have gathered that France is much more liberal than America.




ya i think i was referring to the french use of the word "liberalism", i mix the two up sometimes, my bad, forget what i said.


Quote:

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
The american way of life is deeply personal and little concerned with the rest of humanity. The european way is more expansive and systematic, and therefore more bound to the welfare of the planet.





If the American way of life is deeply personal and not concerned with the rest of hmanity, why do Americans and American businesses give so much to charity?




giving to charity aids the people that need immediate help. Its like giving a fish instead of teaching how to fish. It doesn't help development, it only creates dependance on charities. its a good thing to give, but its better to help develop.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4236847 - 05/30/05 01:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)


giving to charity aids the people that need immediate help. Its like giving a fish instead of teaching how to fish. It doesn't help development, it only creates dependance on charities. its a good thing to give, but its better to help develop.


Unreal.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: exclusive58]
    #4236953 - 05/30/05 02:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Ok, but would it be wrong to say that approximatively 90% of the voters voted either for democrats or republicans?




That is probably true.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
The american way of life is deeply personal and little concerned with the rest of humanity. The european way is more expansive and systematic, and therefore more bound to the welfare of the planet.





RandalFlagg said:
If the American way of life is deeply personal and not concerned with the rest of humanity, why do Americans and American businesses give so much to charity?




exclusive58 said:
giving to charity aids the people that need immediate help. Its like giving a fish instead of teaching how to fish. It doesn't help development, it only creates dependance on charities. its a good thing to give, but its better to help develop.




Haha! I could say the same thing about excessive welfare programs that are subsidized by the state. They tend to create more dependency than development.

And, why is it the developed world's responsibility to use its resources to build up other parts of the world?

There are two ways that Americans give stuff to poorer nations. The first is by private charity (which I have already posted stats for). Some of these private charities do respond to "disasters", but I'm sure that some are attempting to develop poorer countries.

The other way that Americans give is when the U.S. government taxes them and takes some of that money and gives it away. Here are some stats I found:

http://cfrterrorism.org/policy/foreignaid.html


How much aid does the United States give?


Less than 1 percent of the U.S. budget goes to foreign aid. President Bush?s 2003 budget proposes about $11.4 billion in economic assistance and about $4.3 billion for peacekeeping operations and to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces.



How do U.S. aid levels compare with those of other countries?


The U.S. foreign-aid budget as a percentage of gross national product (GNP) ranks last among the world?s wealthiest countries (at about 0.1 percent). In raw dollars, however, the United States is now the world?s top donor of economic aid, although for more than a decade it was second to Japan, which is far smaller and has been beset by economic woes. In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands (pop. 16.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001?almost a third of what America contributed.


So, it appears as if the U.S. federal government doesn't give a huge portion of its GNP, but American citizens voluntarily give a lot of money to aid disadvantaged people around the world.

That's where Europeans and Americans seem to differ on the concept of aid. You want the government to come in by force, take your money, and give it to other people. Whereas more fiscally conservative Americans want to have the choice to do what they want with their money and they end up voluntarily giving a lot.

By the way, I gave hundreds of dollars to the Red Cross after the tsunami disaster.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4237546 - 05/30/05 05:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"There are two ways that Americans give stuff to poorer nations."

There is a third as well.After bombing,they drop rations and supplies for the injured/victims.

Not pun intended,yet true!

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Psiloman]
    #4237602 - 05/30/05 06:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Not only do we drop rations and supplies, but we bring them to our hospitals and nurse them back to health.


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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: looner2]
    #4237756 - 05/30/05 06:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Not only do we drop rations and supplies, but we bring them to our hospitals and nurse them back to health.




Which is a waste most of the time anyway. What do we get from nursing countries we could easily dominate back to health? Maybe diplomatic relationships will look slightly better, but I don't think it's worth the money to go to all the lengths we do to heal people that were in the way.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: looner2]
    #4237792 - 05/30/05 07:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Not only do we drop rations and supplies, but we bring them to our hospitals and nurse them back to health.




Not you or any american....Its all desicions from politicians hence if my comment was a bit sour it was not directed to the average American.

Think of it from a different point though: After one person stabing twice another he says "Not only did i give him bandages and disinfectant but it took him to the hospital as well and paid his bill".Still,keep in mind im not blaming you ,ravus or whoeverelse.I could go even to the extend of saying that i dont blame Bush (as if he is some sort of antichrist) but i blame greedy politicians of any nationality,any colour,any IQ any sexual prefference etc etc :laugh:

Ravus you are speaking from a position of being a citizen of the worlds most influential nation,hence you speak from a secure position...Same would hold true is someone said "I will beat you to a pulp,you cant harm me" standing behind a bulletproof breakproof glasslike polymer. So do you think that it is in America's long term  interest to behave like a worldwide spoiled dictator?

Its not ,if you ask me.If we accept that the twin tower story happened as it was portrayed by the media,consider yourselves lucky that those whackos jammed them in two buildings and pentagon (anyone remember the pentagon? In each movie its the untouchable fort of America!) and not in two or three nuclear reactors..Then America ,if they followed the above logic, would have to nuke some countries and then the whole globe would suffer from the fall out. Having a nationalist world view is not going to do any  good in the long term.If the foreign policy keeps up the rythms it has exhibited the last decade then America would make many enemies...Thats not in the best interest of OUR PLANET.

Instead of a Nationalist can i propose that you should consider....Globalism?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4237803 - 05/30/05 07:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
according to your logic..



What would you know about logic?

Quote:

its injustice if the police return your property after youve been robbed...



Well, I guess that answers my previous question.

Quote:

however..large-scale corporatist swindling is more complex than theft and recovery of personal property..



Indeed, which is why your previous sentence is such bullshit.

Quote:

in this case..europe is about the best we can do...at least in theory..



Wrong. I've mentioned time and again how a Georgist system can do a much better job without stealing like the European system does. However, simply ending corporate welfare would be a good start.

Quote:

the taxes collected from the plutocrats goes into funding public infrastructure..which in turn creates productive employment..



Actually, fewer taxes makes for better employment.

Quote:

so its not being given away to welfare cheats as the republicans would have you believe...



Actually, it's being given to many welfare cheats, both rich and poor.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Silversoul]
    #4238847 - 05/31/05 02:48 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>> Actually, fewer taxes makes for better employment.

every republican feces-turd since reagan has been spinning that shit...tragically..so many ppl believe it that they even have a name ..morons...


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4239143 - 05/31/05 07:22 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
>> Actually, fewer taxes makes for better employment.

every republican feces-turd since reagan has been spinning that shit...tragically..so many ppl believe it that they even have a name ..morons...



Actually, those of us who aren't so simple-minded understand that tax burden does affect a company's decision to move to a place, as well as how many employees they'll hire or how much they can pay their workers. It certainly isn't the only consideration, but it's a big one.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4240621 - 05/31/05 03:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Anna, I urge you (not for the first time) to at least read one -- just one -- basic introductory text to simple economics before posting any more on the subject. You quite clearly haven't the foggiest.



Phred


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Phred]
    #4241268 - 05/31/05 06:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I'm an American, i love my country and everything, but i havent lived anywhere besides philadelphia, and its all i know so i dont know if its like this everywhere but damn our president needs to fight a war in another country he shoulda started puttin this place back together first, i fear for my damn life in some neighborhoods around here now adays. every day a new persons killed, cars are jacked and the worst part is that on the news i keep hearing how Philadelphia is getting better and less crime. ITS NOT. the police and government just dont see that this city is a load of shit with nothing but people who wanna kill eachother, its complete bull shit that i cant walk around downtown without a damn switchblade. it might be like this all over, but it really bums me out when ive been jumped twice (for no reason), had a gun pointed at me, and i hear on the news that crime prevention is going up.. no people are learning ways so hide what theyve done. god i hate philly... is it like this all over the world?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: PreparationH]
    #4241279 - 05/31/05 06:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You might want to consider electing a Republican mayor. It worked for New York


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: PreparationH]
    #4241303 - 05/31/05 06:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

yea right dude, 70% of philadelphia is african-american, they have a big tendency to vote democrat and i am also democrat anyway but i'd consider voting republican.

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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: PreparationH]
    #4241358 - 05/31/05 06:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

o yea and readin through the posts with how we drop rations for people we/ve bombed, we shopuldn/t be dropping rations, we shouldnt be at war, we should give money to africa because some random stuff, we shouldnt have even helped indonesia with that tidal wave crap, its like the world thinks were a never ending piggy bank, and bush does too? I don't even think he understands that the public employ rate is low, were wasting millions on a war that we didnt need, and he hands over billions of dollars? come on, put that money into your own country first cause we can REALLY use it. and whats gonna happen when a tidal wave ruins our coast? i bet no one wants to hear about it. does he think that if another country bombed us theyd then drop rations? man come on.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: PreparationH]
    #4241874 - 05/31/05 08:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PreperationH said:
I'm an American, i love my country and everything, but i havent lived anywhere besides philadelphia, and its all i know so i dont know if its like this everywhere but damn our president needs to fight a war in another country he shoulda started puttin this place back together first, i fear for my damn life in some neighborhoods around here now adays. every day a new persons killed, cars are jacked and the worst part is that on the news i keep hearing how Philadelphia is getting better and less crime. ITS NOT. the police and government just dont see that this city is a load of shit with nothing but people who wanna kill eachother, its complete bull shit that i cant walk around downtown without a damn switchblade. it might be like this all over, but it really bums me out when ive been jumped twice (for no reason), had a gun pointed at me, and i hear on the news that crime prevention is going up.. no people are learning ways so hide what theyve done. god i hate philly... is it like this all over the world?




I'v heard that in Philly, there are some neighborhoods where even the cops are afraid to go. I also heard that your mayor doesn't want people to have concealed carry permits.

Get a concealed carry permit. I have one and I am currently hanging in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh seems to be a lot safer than Philly. Although, I almost had to pull my gun last night when I was going for a walk(long story).

That's what we get for living in decaying used-to-be industrial powerhouse cities. Crime and hopelessness.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4243038 - 06/01/05 02:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I've never been off of the american continent but I assume in Europe its not much different than here or any where else in the world: People really are just wankers for the most part.

I couldn't stay there too long if/when I do visit because I'd soon crave the superior football (soccer is really a castrated version of Ice hockey). Also, the metric sytem is a tool of satan and I overdose on man-scarves pretty violently.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Asante]
    #4243166 - 06/01/05 05:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

America = Petulant greedy teenager.

Europe = Slightly more mature, greedy adult.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: PreparationH]
    #4243220 - 06/01/05 06:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PreperationH said:
I'm an American, i love my country and everything, but i havent lived anywhere besides philadelphia, and its all i know so i dont know if its like this everywhere but damn our president needs to fight a war in another country he shoulda started puttin this place back together first, i fear for my damn life in some neighborhoods around here now adays.  every day a new persons killed, cars are jacked and the worst part is that on the news i keep hearing how Philadelphia is getting better and less crime. ITS NOT. the police and government just dont see that this city is a load of shit with nothing but people who wanna kill eachother, its complete bull shit that i cant walk around downtown without a damn switchblade. it might be like this all over, but it really bums me out when ive been jumped twice (for no reason), had a gun pointed at me, and i hear on the news that crime prevention is going up.. no people are learning ways so hide what theyve done. god i hate philly... is it like this all over the world?




get out of philly if you can.

no seriously.  /wave hi i'm 3 hours eastward. 

philly's awful.  jersey is awful.  the whole area.. from boston to DC.. is awful.
and really, a large part of the blame.. I would have to place at the feet of the asinine liberals that keep getting elected.
you can debate whether it's liberal policy's fault or not, but you can't debate that the particular individuals I'm speaking of are asinine. 

I -still- can't get over the story of the elected official from out around philly who wanted a police dog destroyed..
.. for being racist..
.. because it dragged some kid away from its officer as he was arresting some other kid.  not attacked, pulled away.  certainly some black teenaged inner-city kid wouldn't have been doing anything that a dog would have percieved as vaguely threatening as some cop arrests his friend, obviously the dog just must hate black people.  ahhh yes, that's the mentality that gets you elected in that area, though.
better yet, we just had a statewide tax hike to subsidize pittsburg and philly's FAILING and LITTLE-USED public transportation system!
URINE-SOAKED BUSES FOR ALL!
hell no we can't make a viable business of it, let's let the rest of the state pay for it..  hey they're all bumfucks anyway, not SMERT CITY FOLK like us :rolleyes:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4243325 - 06/01/05 07:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)


better yet, we just had a statewide tax hike to subsidize pittsburg and philly's FAILING and LITTLE-USED public transportation system!
URINE-SOAKED BUSES FOR ALL!

I rode a Pittsburgh bus once. It was reasonably clean, although I made sure not to allow my head to touch the fabric of the seats (someone could have lice or something).

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4243362 - 06/01/05 08:21 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

First of all, let me say that I am irked when I hear Europeans (not just on this board) seem to hold themselves and their nations up as beacons of what everybody should emulate and at the same time they seem to insinuate that us Americans are troglodytes.



....and vice versa...

Quote:

There are Leftist Anarchists




No there are not - thats an oxymoron, there is no such thing except in the land of nonsense.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: CJay]
    #4243372 - 06/01/05 08:31 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
There are Leftist Anarchists




Quote:

Cjay said:
No there are not - thats an oxymoron, there is no such thing except in the land of nonsense.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Meeting_of_1999

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4243409 - 06/01/05 08:44 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Some people may call themselves Leftist Anarchists, yet in reality there is no such thing. Anarchy is the absence of rules - Leftism is a certain set of social rules......incompatable. Doublespeak, oxymoron.

The whole modern and organised set of 'anarcho' movements is a crock of shit. people who don't even understand what anarchy means and go around abiding by some wierd far fetched ideology and its rules.....while being anarchists. Nonsense.

In reality there can be no such thing as a leftist anarchist - the two terms are mutually exclusive.

Which is probably why the poor mixed up devils fail so miserably in their undertakings and the global redistribution of wealth movement is so splintered and undynamic.

Anarchy is freedom.....this is incompatible with rules (including other political systems).

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: CJay]
    #4243573 - 06/01/05 09:40 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I understand what you are saying and the same thoughts have occured to me as well. Here's my take on it: anarchy is the absence of political governance. Anarchy does not mean the absence of rules of social conduct, nor the absence of different kinds of social organization. Some may prefer to organize themselves in a communist society, some may prefer a more capitalist style organization of society, hence the terms 'leftist anarchist' and 'anarcho-capitalist.' Of course in a truly anarchic environment these developments would be organic, arising out of voluntary associations... and the first group of people to come along with the will and desire to control others would attempt to establish a government over the anarchists, or in the very least, resort to pilferage. Most the leftist anarchists that I've encountered would see nothing wrong with pilfering the accumulated capital of others, thereby destroying the ideal of anarchy by compelling others to form some sort of organization (probably a government or proto-government) for their protection.


--------------------
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4243708 - 06/01/05 10:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I see what you mean....still think 'anarcho' whatever is contrived; though I see that people are clutching at terms to express their rebelliousness against the current system yet their desire to reform it.

To function successfully as a society anarchy requires a high level of consciousness and conscience in every anarchist. This way people are free, and also aware enough to use that freedom wisely and for the success of themselves and the group since they understand the implications of their actions.

Quote:

Of course in a truly anarchic environment these developments would be organic




...and interchangable, the anarchist could and would be able to move from leftist to capitalist thinking in a jot and without attachment to either.....holding oneself to one principle rather waters down the anarchic principle into a costume.

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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: CJay]
    #4243953 - 06/01/05 11:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

its pretty sad that i cant go do a school to bmx without havin to call people to help me beat the shit out of somebody for fuckin with us. I probably will leave eventually, but is it like this all over the world with the crime? eventually im going to buy a handgun because if some 1 tries to pull one out on me, i'll blow off some 1s head. And the worst part about everything is MTV, i turn on mtv and see ppl rappin, sayin how theyre so gangster, come live with me for a weak and see if you want out or if you think its cool to live in a shitty city.

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: PreparationH]
    #4244855 - 06/01/05 03:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

sounds rough mate

...know what u sayin about all those gangsta rappers 2

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Asante]
    #4246675 - 06/02/05 12:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm... over the last 100 years...

USA had 0 genocides. Europe had at least 2 (scary, I feel like I'm forgetting one).

USA has been on the winning side of TWO World Wars. Europe played BOTH sides... BOTH times. USA helped rebuild Europe BOTH times.

Yugoslavia sure went to hell in a handbasket for a while too.

America never took over a European country (or any country for that matter... since countries were invented) after defeating (or aiding) them in war. Europeans do that shit all the time in the last century.

America has 100% fewer Popes

Fewer kings (well, we had Elvis)

Fewer tabloids (really!)

The Farenheit system (Only shitty part of the Metric system is C*)

I'm sure I'm missing a war or two... over the last 100 years (AaaaaChechnyaCHOO!!)

European speech laws are oftem more restrictive than American laws. Say something in London, get arrested in Greece!

Chernobyl sucked a lot more than 3 Mile Island.

USA ecconomic strength helped tear down the Berlin wall. So did the pope?!? So did The Beatles (who were influenced by AMERICAN Rock n Roll!).

After the wall fell, Kentucky Fried Chicken helped feed hungry East Germans. :smirk:

Was Social Security an American idea?

The internet?

The assembly line?

Let's face it... Europe has good parts and bad parts. But the states are no slouch. Today, much of Europe seems pretty progressive and secular. Cool with me. They have borrowed a lot of American concepts (European Union) and run with them. But to generalize ALL of Europe as one thing, is almost impossible. Same with the USA. Each country is populated with PEOPLE and that makes them the same, yet vastly different.

The USA as countries go, is young. Europe has a history. The USA seems a bit adolescent in its actions but, it is doing pretty well over all... sure we'll go to war for silly reasons once in a while... but we learned how to do THAT from our European parents. :smile:

Just like it depends on what country you Europeans are from, it depends on where you live in the states. Different regions are like night and day. Different beliefs, different politics, different speech, same flag. One country, or in Europe's case, a CONTINENT makes this comparison a little too large in scope.

The USA and Europe are big land masses, populated mostly, by shitloads of Europeans. I see very little difference.

Europe has more history, USA has more Puritans. That's about it.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Rose]
    #4246717 - 06/02/05 01:07 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>> The USA as countries go, is young.

the US govt is actually one of the oldest in the world..if you dont consider the US before and after the civil war..and since bush..as being 3 different countries (and even so..the institutions of govt have still remained intact)...OTOH..no modern european govt predates WWII..with the UK being the only exception i know off the top of my head...


--------------------


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Edited by Annapurna1 (06/02/05 01:42 AM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4246902 - 06/02/05 02:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

People, history and geography have at least as much to do with a country as its government, no?


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Invisiblenewuser1492
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4247174 - 06/02/05 07:12 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think the US after WWII is practically a different country than before WWII.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4247183 - 06/02/05 07:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
>> The USA as countries go, is young.

the US govt is actually one of the oldest in the world..if you dont consider the US before and after the civil war..and since bush..as being 3 different countries (and even so..the institutions of govt have still remained intact)...OTOH..no modern european govt predates WWII..with the UK being the only exception i know off the top of my head...




True, for example, france has had 5 different constitutions (presently its the 5th Republic) since the french revolution about 200 years ago, and in the same period of time the US has stayed with its one and only constitution.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: Rose]
    #4247195 - 06/02/05 07:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)


America never took over a European country (or any country for that matter... since countries were invented) after defeating (or aiding) them in war. Europeans do that shit all the time in the last century.


That is such a good point. People don't realize that wars throughout history, especially european history was one of capture and conquer. Borders and national boundaries shifted constantly depending on who was on the world stage, but after WW2, there was NO ONE who could rival us, not in military or industrial strength. What did we do? We went back home!

Did we keep S.Korea to ourselves after defending her from the communists? Did we keep kuwait after defending her from Saddam?

We are a very peaceful nation considering our unrivaled power in the world, and we are setting a NEW precedent for a world power that is practicing an isolationist stance.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: looner2]
    #4247203 - 06/02/05 07:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Did we keep S.Korea to ourselves after defending her from the communists? Did we keep kuwait after defending her from Saddam?

I think the US realized it was more economically feasible to use persuasion and coercion to control certain areas (Central America) than to use direct force.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: newuser1492]
    #4247711 - 06/02/05 11:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The name of the game changed dramatically - covert operations took over from bold conquest. Puppet governments and smiley good-books Americans. Bold conquest has failed too many times and Empirical occupation never works in the long term (and costs too much), however Iraq is getting dangerously close to crossing the line back to classic Empire from the usual economic empire and covert control methods.

Since The Enlightenment the progressive conscious side of mankind put forth a humanitarian stance which has led to the regressive conservative side of humanity adopting a 2 faced approach since the Enlightened view is too widely accepted by people and must be run as the foreground stance.

The USA seems to be determined to culturally invade every nation, wheras the British Empire in its time was happy to leave the subjects with their own culture....as long as the Brits remained in control of the infrastructure they put in place to exploit the areas resources. Putting a map line through the middle of a cultural group usually helped to keep them divided and letting them foster their age old divisions wioth other groups kept them too busy to fight off the Brits - divide and rule was used extensively.

Basically The governments of European countries and the government of the USA are all fucked up coniving fuckers who will turn everything to a certain light, but away from another; practice coersion and where possible just plain blunt steamrollering.

Damn institutions....people everywhere are mostly pretty kool without them.

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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: newuser1492]
    #4247978 - 06/02/05 12:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Should have said really, to its credit the USA was built on the principles of The Enlightenment. Washington + co were fully into the Enlightenment thought emmanating from England at the time and built the foundation of the country on these precepts.

That might well have been the best move that human civilisation made in the past few hundred years.....but like I say it has led to the situation I describe above.

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The USA gave the world Kool/Cool and then led the psychedellic revolution in the '60s - for that we must be eternally grateful.

On the other side of the coin Americans are much more sensitive about their identity, they have a real identity crisis. I meet so many people born and bred in America 3rd and 4th generation who claim to be not American, but some other nationality. (Irish is a favourite one...everyone wants to be Irish. Even if one great grandparent was Irish, one was Polish and the rest are unidentifiable the person claims they are Irish. Without having ever laid a foot in Ireland thats quite a feat). If Americans don't go that far then they are Anglo-Ameican, Irish-American, or Afro-American. People aren't happy with just being American.....maybe because the nation is so youthful and people seek longer histories.

In my experience Americans talk much louder than Europeans, they almost shout when just making conversation; in a pub full of Europeans one can usually quite clearly hear the one American sitting 4 tables away above the general hubub and the tables nearest. I often wonder why.

Europeans are usually quite happy to depreciate their nations, wheras Americans seem much more touchy and obsessed with looking the good guy - American nationality seems quite vain in this respect. This is perhaps a product of the youth of the nation and the Enlightened precepts upon which it was built.

America gave us theme parks!!!!! Great for the kids, young and old. Hollywood, cola and theme parks - top stuff.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: CJay]
    #4249266 - 06/02/05 05:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:

The USA seems to be determined to culturally invade every nation, wheras the British Empire in its time was happy to leave the subjects with their own culture....as long as the Brits remained in control of the infrastructure they put in place to exploit the areas resources. Putting a map line through the middle of a cultural group usually helped to keep them divided and letting them foster their age old divisions wioth other groups kept them too busy to fight off the Brits - divide and rule was used extensively.




What drivel. You don't culturally invade. Do we force people to buy McDonalds and watch our stupid movies? No. We just produce products that people the world over prefer. Give the people what they want. We just do it better. And if you think that we give them crap, well, what of it? Forbidding it would be a logical extension of the drug prohibitors telling us what's good for us.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4251412 - 06/03/05 05:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What did I say about touchy....

Just check out the middle east....there's a lot more that McDonalds and Hollywood to it. Those are merely the trappings.

Besides, China, Indonesia and Taiwan produce most of the products. And the quality is really very good.

You know I really wasn't stating whether it was good or bad, right or wrong, just that it is so. And it is so.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: CJay]
    #4253516 - 06/03/05 07:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You said "culturally" invade. What were you referring to with this bit of nonsense if not what I alluded to?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4253697 - 06/03/05 07:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You said "culturally" invade. What were you referring to with this bit of nonsense if not what I alluded to?




You can't even begin to rationalize it. The anti-american sentiment has grown to absurd levels, I can't help but laugh.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4267164 - 06/07/05 09:31 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think that like the over zealous, but well meaning, convert and with the humanitarian foundation of the USA fuelling a moral stance the USA is determined to show the rest of the world the political light - often forcibly. Being forced into 'freedom' is however a paradox that is irreconcilable.

The USA then becomes the self appointed constabulary trying to maintain the goodness it is spreading with its moral and political standards, but no one likes the pigs/police in their business and no one likes to be told how to live.

The middle eastern invasions of the GWB era have all been about regime change ie cultural change. There were no WMD, no threats to America....just a culture that had to be changed in order to economically benefit the USA and in order to spread the (albeit refracted) political light of Washingon and co.

Same goes for all the covert wars, coups and CIA engagements right back to WW2 (which is when the US really came to global pre-eminence and began spreading The Word) - the driving force has always been the moral and 'democratic' standpoint. Do-goodism, but like I say this became the 2 faced mask of conservatism as neocons rose up licking their lips in private at the riches and power to be gained whilst smiling and 'liberating' the world in public.

Of course politicians everywhere and throughout time have been expert at being 2 faced and this is nothing exceptionally new, it has just been distilled into a fine art in this modern age and has had to be to bear the weight of the traditional US ethos.

The US ensures it effectively controls the economics of as much of the world as possible, as well as the marketing inherrent; it does not go so far as to physically occupy territories (usually), but it does invade and fund military actions to ensure policy control is maintained. All actions, though on occasion beneficial to the teritories, primarily benefit Uncle Sam and ensure his economic dominance and superiority. Due to the moral hangover of the constitution that plagues the neocons and snakish politicians of all types, at a level below invasion, sanctions are used to ensure cultural compliance. Of course the whole thing has become wierdly twisted through the convolutions and greed that subvert the traditional ideals.

One example might be India, the land of Ganja and the chillum....legal for time immemorial and a cultural backbone. In order for India to be let into the world the US inherrited/created and enjoy 'free' trade with the US ganja had to be outlawed and now is punishable by 25 years in gaol. Cultural compliance is made mandatory by the leaders of the 'free market' empire (which isn't free...is actually a means to ensure the status quo of US economic dominance)....

I personally don't see that the USA is any better or worse that any nation that has ever been, the things any of these nations do are questionable. In the position the USA holds now it is a time of many questions, and yes as looner2 points out 'anti-american sentiment has grown to absurd levels'. The USA is in everyone's business and that gets on people's nerves, it's like the USA as an entity thinks it knows more than any other national entity...and not just more, but better. The US is the global Big Brother that checks on us and makes sure we are behaving within the realms of accepted moral and cultural standards....US standards.

Often through the media US representatives appear arrogant and steeped in cultural superiority as they patronisingly speak of their spread of democracy and freedom like they are The Mission.

It just doesn't wash, the endless sanctimonious bibble-babble from neocon HQ that everyone knows is a crock of shit as they set up puppet governments built to their own cultural models here there and everywhere. Now they are at war with the nation of Islam...where will that go....

The clash of the cultures.


Any nation that dominates the global paradigm as much as the US is going to come up against heavy criticism. If it wasn't the US it would be another nation, and it has been plenty of other nations going back in time.

You actual people over there are AOK and this isn't about you, it is the way of the world...governmental institutions ar horribly dehumanised things and the US government is no exception.

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: looner2]
    #4267214 - 06/07/05 09:57 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You can't even begin to rationalize it. The anti-american sentiment has grown to absurd levels, I can't help but laugh.




Perhaps you should be concerned because this situation is very real, laughing is a sign of your dismissal....arrogant and unconcerned because you really don't care. And everyone knows you don't care and Bush doesn't care and entrenched right wing America doesn't care.....which is why people don't like it when US politicians pretend what is in the US interest is actually done out of a sense of caring.

Power corrupts, and the US is the most powerful nation on earth. Laughing at other nations' concerns compounds matters and raises their concerns further. Especially when the US laughs wile flashing its nuclear arsenal at the world and showing off the might of its military.

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: CJay]
    #4267233 - 06/07/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:  Good posts, my friend.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Exploring our cultural weaknesses and blindspots: USA vs Europe [Re: CJay]
    #4267329 - 06/07/05 10:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
Quote:

You can't even begin to rationalize it. The anti-american sentiment has grown to absurd levels, I can't help but laugh.




Perhaps you should be concerned because this situation is very real, laughing is a sign of your dismissal....arrogant and unconcerned because you really don't care. And everyone knows you don't care and Bush doesn't care and entrenched right wing America doesn't care.....which is why people don't like it when US politicians pretend what is in the US interest is actually done out of a sense of caring.

Power corrupts, and the US is the most powerful nation on earth. Laughing at other nations' concerns compounds matters and raises their concerns further. Especially when the US laughs wile flashing its nuclear arsenal at the world and showing off the might of its military.





:handth:

(that was a sarcastic post right?)


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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