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Invisiblemyndreach
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Pentagon confirms Koran incidents...
    #4225594 - 05/27/05 06:11 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: myndreach]
    #4225640 - 05/27/05 07:07 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

" Mishandling "

now the military "mishandled the koran"

what a story!


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: myndreach]
    #4225649 - 05/27/05 07:17 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

washingtonpost.com
Pentagon Confirms Koran Incidents
'Mishandling' Cases Preceded Guidelines Established in 2003

By Josh White and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, May 27, 2005; A01



Pentagon officials said yesterday that investigators have identified five incidents of military guards and an interrogator "mishandling" the Koran at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, but characterized the episodes as minor and said most occurred before specific rules on the treatment of Muslim holy items were issued.

Brig. Gen. Jay W. Hood, commander of Joint Task Force Guantanamo, said investigators have looked into 13 specific allegations of Koran desecration at the prison dating to early 2002 and have determined eight of them to be unfounded, lacking credibility or the result of accidental touching of the holy book. Of the five cases of mishandling, three were "very likely" deliberate and two were "very likely accidental," he said. But Hood declined to provide details, citing an ongoing investigation.

Hood's comments marked the first time the Pentagon has confirmed mistreatment of the Muslim book at Guantanamo Bay. Captives and some military personnel there have made claims of Koran desecration, but in a statement last week, Pentagon spokesman Lawrence T. Di Rita said the Defense Department had received no credible claims of such abuse. Nevertheless, he said, officials were reviewing the allegations.

Hood took pains to deny a now-retracted report in Newsweek magazine's May 9 issue that said officials had confirmed a detainee's claim that a guard had flushed a Koran down a toilet. The White House, the Pentagon and others have linked that report to riots overseas that left 16 people dead.

The news conference came a day after the American Civil Liberties Union released summaries of memos from FBI agents at Guantanamo Bay that reported detainee allegations of Koran desecration. Hood played down the mistreatment as a vestige of Guantanamo Bay's early days and said it occurred without any systemic frequency.

He said most of the 13 cases involved accidental or inadvertent touching of the Koran by guards and interrogators -- such as someone bumping into the holy book, or one case in which an interrogator stacked two Korans on a television set.

The five confirmed cases of Koran mishandling involved four guards and one interrogator, Hood said. Six other "resolved" cases involved guards, and two involved interrogators, he said.

Hood said a soldier was reassigned after one recent accidental mishandling of the Koran, and another soldier faced an unspecified disciplinary action for an incident some time ago.

He added that there were also 15 cases in which detainees mishandled the Koran, including one who purposefully ripped pages out of his own book.

"I want to assure you that we are committed to respecting the cultural dignity of the Koran and the detainees' practice of faith," Hood said. "Every effort has been made to provide religious articles associated with the Islamic faith, accommodate prayers and religious periods, and provide culturally acceptable meals and practices."

Pentagon officials said investigators did not look into the claim that a Koran had been flushed down a toilet before the Newsweek article was published. While looking into the desecration claims after protests erupted overseas, investigators re-interviewed a detainee who had told FBI agents in July 2002 that guards had put a Koran in a toilet.

That interview, on May 14, with a prisoner the Pentagon identified this week as "an enemy combatant," led investigators to believe that the claim lacked credibility. The detainee said that he "wasn't beaten or abused, but that he had heard rumors that other detainees were," Hood said.

"We then proceeded to ask him about any incidences where he had seen the Koran defiled, desecrated or mishandled, and he allowed as how he hadn't, but he had heard . . . that guards at some other point in time had done this," Hood said yesterday. "He went on to describe to his interrogator that that was a problem that was only in the old camp."

Hood said "old camp" apparently meant Camp X-Ray, the temporary cells where captives were held when Guantanamo Bay opened in January 2002. But he acknowledged that interrogators did not specifically ask the detainee this month whether a toilet had been involved, nor did they refer to the original statement the detainee gave to the FBI nearly three years ago.

Hood emphasized that most of the confirmed incidents occurred before standard procedures were put in place in January 2003 for proper handling of the Koran. A broader investigation by the U.S. Southern Command into allegations of abuse and mistreatment contained in memos written by FBI personnel stationed at Guantanamo Bay is continuing. Hood and Di Rita declined to address the larger probe.

According to U.S. Southern Command documents, officials at Guantanamo Bay were aware of the importance of the proper handling of the Koran in the facility's very first days. Responding to concerns from the International Committee of the Red Cross in January 2002, command officials wrote that they needed to make sure that detainees were allowed time to pray and that they were given appropriate ways to store their Korans.

The "Koran must be kept neat and wrapped in something," according to a memo dated Jan. 21, 2002. "Can we get them a small green cloth to wrap it?"

The FBI documents released Wednesday by the ACLU contained summaries of a dozen interviews in which detainees said they had witnessed or heard about mistreatment of the Koran by guards or interrogators.

They also included new allegations of severe physical abuse of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan.

The FBI records provide at least one example in which a detainee may have lied about mistreatment of the Koran. According to a summary of an interview with one prisoner, an uprising in July 2002 had started with a claim by another detainee that a guard had dropped a Koran.

"In actuality," the summary says, "the detainee dropped the Koran and then blamed the guard. Many other detainees reacted to this claim and this initiated the uprising."

The FBI documents do not indicate whether this version of events is accurate, although Pentagon officials have recounted a similar-sounding incident. FBI officials have declined to comment.

The ACLU also released more FBI documents yesterday, including a memo indicating that military interrogators posed as officials from the FBI and State Department while questioning detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

One memo, from November 2003, refers to "DOD interrogators at Guantanamo representing themselves to be officials of the FBI and U.S. State Department." A previously released version of the same document had revealed the FBI impersonations, but the reference to the State Department had been redacted.

State Department spokesman Richard A. Boucher told reporters yesterday that he was unaware of the impersonation allegations. Another spokesman said the department does not employ interrogators or take part in interviews at Guantanamo Bay.

Another newly released document, dated January 2004, suggested that the FBI would "finally make an arrest" in connection with "interrogations in June 2003 when an FBI agent was impersonated." No such arrest has been publicly announced.

In several e-mails, FBI agents angrily complained about the impersonations and suggested that the ruse was aimed in part at avoiding blame for any subsequent public allegations of abuse.

The earlier documents also included e-mails from FBI agents who said they had witnessed Guantanamo Bay detainees being shackled to the floor for days at a time, deprived of food and water and left to defecate on themselves.






How will this be spun by Bush supporters, now?







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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Learyfan]
    #4225707 - 05/27/05 08:10 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)


He said most of the 13 cases involved accidental or inadvertent touching of the Koran by guards and interrogators -- such as someone bumping into the holy book, or one case in which an interrogator stacked two Korans on a television set.


Oh for Allah's sake.....these Muslims seem to be a little too touchy. 

Two Korans were stacked on a television set?!?!?!?!  Where is Amnesty International!?!?!?!  What barbarous treatment!

:rolleyes:

Edited by RandalFlagg (05/27/05 08:12 AM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4225725 - 05/27/05 08:24 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Prisoners at Guantanamo are forced to watch godless television? Call Amnesty International!



Phred


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Invisiblemyndreach
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4225827 - 05/27/05 09:07 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

He said most of the 13 cases involved accidental or inadvertent touching of the Koran by guards and interrogators -- such as someone bumping into the holy book, or one case in which an interrogator stacked two Korans on a television set.


Oh for Allah's sake.....these Muslims seem to be a little too touchy.





It's not our right to decide what is or isn't acceptable in someone else's religion as long as it isn't infringing on our lives. If the detainees were stacking walls of Koran's up to keep guards out, that would be different, but it's easy enough not to touch a book sitting in a cell.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Phred]
    #4225943 - 05/27/05 09:50 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Will you conceed that Newsweek was right all along?





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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: myndreach]
    #4225958 - 05/27/05 09:56 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

myndreach said:
It's not our right to decide what is or isn't acceptable in someone else's religion as long as it isn't infringing on our lives. If the detainees were stacking walls of Koran's up to keep guards out, that would be different, but it's easy enough not to touch a book sitting in a cell.




They are prisoners of course we can touch their property, are you insane don't touch a book? I'm sure Christian prisoners in Muslim prisons have the Bible treated so well. You know the countries that arrest and prosecute for possesing a Bible.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Phred]
    #4225994 - 05/27/05 10:13 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Well... since the Muslim world seems to want to play on a level playing field perhaps we should simply behead everybody at GBay, post the murders on the internet, shut down the prison, and with great honor and respect return the copies of the Koran that have caused all these hurt feelings.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Seuss]
    #4226853 - 05/27/05 01:54 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Exactly. They expect us to allow them to behead people and all that shit. This is fair game, all is fair in war.


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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OfflineDoom
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Seuss]
    #4227087 - 05/27/05 03:02 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Well... since the Muslim world seems to want to play on a level playing field perhaps we should simply behead everybody at GBay, post the murders on the internet, shut down the prison, and with great honor and respect return the copies of the Koran that have caused all these hurt feelings.




*the muslim world*

ha.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: myndreach]
    #4227235 - 05/27/05 04:14 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

myndreach said:
Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

He said most of the 13 cases involved accidental or inadvertent touching of the Koran by guards and interrogators -- such as someone bumping into the holy book, or one case in which an interrogator stacked two Korans on a television set.


Oh for Allah's sake.....these Muslims seem to be a little too touchy.





It's not our right to decide what is or isn't acceptable in someone else's religion as long as it isn't infringing on our lives. If the detainees were stacking walls of Koran's up to keep guards out, that would be different, but it's easy enough not to touch a book sitting in a cell.




I bet anyone would be hard-pressed to find anywhere in the Koran that says it can not be touching a tv. I think they're just looking for any reason to complain, and this fits the bill. They should be happy we even give them the Koran. I'm sure when our POW's in Iraq are given leisure time from being beheaded, they're not given a bible.

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4227286 - 05/27/05 04:38 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I think it might be that you are not allowed to stack them on top of each other.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Learyfan]
    #4227313 - 05/27/05 04:50 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Will you conceed that Newsweek was right all along?








Newsweek reported that the Koran had been put in a toilet. I don't see that here, do you? Bunch of whiny douchebags, if you ask me. It's a fucking book, made of paper and ink. Even if you're stupid enough to the think ideas are sacred the idea that the ink and paper is too is ludicrous. Is it blasphemy to erase a passage of the Koran from a computer screen and move on to some goat porn?


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4227327 - 05/27/05 04:54 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Is it blasphemy to erase a passage of the Koran from a computer screen and move on to some goat porn?




Judging by the IM messeges that I recieve from middle eastern men in chatrooms, no.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Catalysis]
    #4228097 - 05/27/05 08:38 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I really wish our country would stop pandering to the elitist fucks in europe and the liberal scum who worship them here in the united states. We need to burn the koran in front of the detainees faces and then spit on it on national television.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: myndreach]
    #4228296 - 05/27/05 09:45 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I wonder if you can use the Koran as rolling paper.

I smoked a joint rolled from a page of the Bible once.


Revelations, I believe.


Who gives a shit. They can wipe their ass with it for all I care.


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This space for rent

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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4228556 - 05/27/05 11:01 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Yeah I've done that more than once....It just doens't feel right, though. Maybe having 1000s of years of lunacy and mind control tainting my sweet herb is what bothers me. My weed is too good for the bible (or the koran for that matter)


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4228775 - 05/27/05 11:57 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:


Newsweek reported that the Koran had been put in a toilet. I don't see that here, do you? Bunch of whiny douchebags, if you ask me. It's a fucking book, made of paper and ink. Even if you're stupid enough to the think ideas are sacred the idea that the ink and paper is too is ludicrous. Is it blasphemy to erase a passage of the Koran from a computer screen and move on to some goat porn?




Islam regards the Koran to be a holy book - a medium for the voice of Allah. The Koran is handled with utmost respect in their faith. Believers are to ritually wash before even touching the book. The Koran is also not supposed to be placed on the floor or other unclean places. Muslims revere the Koran. You obviously do not share such beliefs and that is irrelevent - who cares if you think it is ludicrous?

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Vvellum]
    #4228786 - 05/28/05 12:00 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

How muslims feel about their texts is irrelevant.

Who cares about how they feel?


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4228792 - 05/28/05 12:01 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

huh?

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4229350 - 05/28/05 05:50 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
How muslims feel about their texts is irrelevant.

Who cares about how they feel?




That attitude is why they hate us. Even if you're joking, you just crystalized it, right there.




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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Learyfan]
    #4229572 - 05/28/05 09:58 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I'm not joking. I really don't give a shit about their stupid little book.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4230030 - 05/28/05 12:49 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
I'm not joking. I really don't give a shit about their stupid little book.



Nor anyone's book.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #4230134 - 05/28/05 01:32 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Exactly.

Now if they were forcing them to step on cracks thereby breaking their mothers' backs, then that would be cruelty. :smirk:

For that matter, if they were forcing the prisoners to desicrate their own book, that would be over the line in my book.

If they were forcing the prisoners to wipe their asses with pages from the Bible, then that would be kind of funny.


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Edited by Baby_Hitler (05/28/05 01:37 PM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #4230307 - 05/28/05 02:52 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
I'm not joking. I really don't give a shit about their stupid little book.



Nor anyone's book.




:thumbup:

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #4230970 - 05/28/05 06:05 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I thought we cared about these people.  :smirk:

Unless I'm behind on the times, the latest justification for the war is that we're liberating the Iraqis from a brutal dictator.  If we really care about the Iraqis, we can not do something that strikes at the soul of these people.  They're already a little on edge as it is.  If we ever hope to have even pockets of acceptance in Iraq, then we need to be very respectful of these people's superstitions.







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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Learyfan]
    #4231708 - 05/28/05 09:13 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Did you write that cartoon?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Learyfan]
    #4232761 - 05/29/05 08:23 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Will you conceed that Newsweek was right all along?




WTF?

Of course not. None of these more detailed revelations in any way shape or form corroborate Newsweek's story. At worst, they indicate to just what absurd lengths those in charge of Gitmo are willing to go in order to pander to homicidal religious nutbars. The more of these articles I read the angrier I get because they show the absurd lengths to which the military allows itself to be manipulated. It almost beggars belief.



Phred


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Phred]
    #4232799 - 05/29/05 08:48 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Just checking.








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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: myndreach]
    #4235229 - 05/30/05 12:35 AM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Lets take their fucking Korans away from them. It's funny how we see this as so evil, but noone is mentioning the fact tat we are letting them have their holy book.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Learyfan]
    #4236129 - 05/30/05 09:35 AM (19 years, 18 days ago)

I think this is overshadowing the fact that we have been shown no evidence that these men are guilty of anything or belong in prison.


That's the issue, not "Mom, Billy's touching by holy book!"


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: SoopaX]
    #4236532 - 05/30/05 12:11 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
Lets take their fucking Korans away from them. It's funny how we see this as so evil, but no one is mentioning the fact tat we are letting them have their holy book.




This kind of attitude is why they're killing our soldiers.

Baby Hitler: You may be right, but that's another thread all together. I don't know if it's possible for anyone to find out if these people are at Gbay for legitimate reasons.






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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Learyfan]
    #4236597 - 05/30/05 12:38 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)


This kind of attitude is why they're killing our soldiers.



They are killing ours soldiers because they don't like our attitude?


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: looner2]
    #4236671 - 05/30/05 01:10 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:

This kind of attitude is why they're killing our soldiers.



They are killing ours soldiers because they don't like our attitude?




We're invading their country and murdering their family members. If we're going to do that under the guise of "liberating" and "freeing" them, we need to show them that we care about them. By desecrating their religion, we're sending the message that we are occupiers who care nothing about these people or their superstitions/traditions.

This whole macho, cowboy, "do what we say or else" attitude is not going to help convince them that we mean well. It only proves that we're well mean. As long as we are seen as occupiers, our soldiers will be killed.





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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Learyfan]
    #4236860 - 05/30/05 02:02 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

I don't care about their people, and most of the U.S doesn't. Why should we lie about it? That doesn't change the fact that most people (not me) believe that it is the morally right thing to rebuild the country after ousting the dictator who threatened us.

I think they should be happy we still have soldiers in there putting their lives on the line to stop the terrorists from blowing the country up. Give me a break about being mean.


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: looner2]
    #4237081 - 05/30/05 03:00 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Morality aside, it is in our interest to see a free and democratic state exist in the heart of Islam.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4237598 - 05/30/05 06:00 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Morality aside, it is in our interest to see a free and democratic state exist in the heart of Islam.




You are most likely right.

But is it worth shedding the blood of a single U.S soldier?

NO!

Removing Saddam and threat of WMDs in fear of an imminent threat is a cause that has a direct correlation with our safety. I won't bother arguing if it was right or not here, but I can see where the war is justified in defending our nation from a threat.

That is much different then an obscure attempt at nation-building and democracy spreading to a region where the people neither deserve, nor appreciate what it has to offer.

I wouldn't want to die for an iraqi voting in hope that someday it will prevent terrorists from killing us, would you? It is too vague.

There are concrete enemies hiding in caves and coordinating attacks that better serve as the recipients of our wrath.


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: looner2]
    #4237666 - 05/30/05 06:23 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

I disagree. The rewards of our showing resoluteness will be reaped for decades. We have too long been perceived as Vietnam-shy. We all know that the continental Europeans are craven cowards, willing to sell out to the first ransom demand, but there will definitely be more than a kernel of doubt in any overly ambitious dictators mind regarding the consequences of their acts. No longer can they automaticly assume that America will tolerate their heinous acts.


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: looner2]
    #4237703 - 05/30/05 06:33 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

So you're saying it's ok to kill children to make yourself safer?


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4237727 - 05/30/05 06:40 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

So you're saying it's ok to kill children to make yourself safer?

I'll reply when you make a better question, or seriously clarify this one.


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: looner2]
    #4238538 - 05/30/05 11:36 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

You said it wasn't worth shedding the blood of a single American soldier to bring FreedomocracyTM to the middle east.


What do you think soldiers ar for anyway?

Is it worth shedding the blood of an innocent Iraqi to make America a little safer from a hypothetical threat?


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4240550 - 05/31/05 03:14 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

At the risk of bringing this even more off topic than it is already, I watched Hotel Rwanda last night.

Those who ask the "Is it worth the life of an Iraqi child" kinda questions are those who believe the Rwandans and Sudanese and Kosovars and Tibetans and Ivory Coasters and Haitians and yes -- Iraqis -- are on their own. Not our problem. "Sucks to be you, Mrs. Tutsi, but hey.... not my problem. Hope that machete-chopping deal works itself out eventually."

Note that I don't necessarily condemn this attitude, just point out that if you're gonna use the "life of one Iraqi child" objection it covers an awful lot of ground.



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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Phred]
    #4241110 - 05/31/05 05:28 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

to do something out of fear/cowardace, and try to pass it off as heroism is just about the douchiest thing you can do.


And that is America in a nutshell.


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4241652 - 05/31/05 08:05 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)


You said it wasn't worth shedding the blood of a single American soldier to bring FreedomocracyTM to the middle east.


Correct.

What do you think soldiers ar for anyway?

What do you think they are for? They are for defending our country, basically.

Is it worth shedding the blood of an innocent Iraqi to make America a little safer from a hypothetical threat?

Geez, what the hell are you talking about? Who is talking about babies? If this is a lame attempt to get me to bite on a silly point so you can pounce, count me out. You'll have to connect the dots, because I won't for you.


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4243191 - 06/01/05 06:18 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

to do something out of fear/cowardace, and try to pass it off as heroism is just about the douchiest thing you can do.




Do you believe things are only ever done for a single reason? If so, why?

Clearly you find it unacceptable that non-combatant Iraqis have been killed in Iraq since March 19 of 2003. Would you have found their deaths unacceptable had the coalition's invasion of Iraq been given the UN's seal of approval as as the case in Afghanistan? If not, why not?

Let's pretend for a minute that the reports were actually factual and that at some point in time an American somewhere really had flushed a Koran down a toilet. Which is worse -- the act of illustrating contempt for a religious symbol or the act of murdering people who had absolutely nothing to do with the desecration?



Phred


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Seuss]
    #4243216 - 06/01/05 06:33 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Well... since the Muslim world seems to want to play on a level playing field perhaps we should simply behead everybody at GBay, post the murders on the internet, shut down the prison, and with great honor and respect return the copies of the Koran that have caused all these hurt feelings.




'The Muslim World' - Insurgents and terrorists commit atrocities against Westerners etc....not official Muslim institutions, not any official Muslim governments; in fact most of those are in the US pocket.

The US government is an official organisation with self appointed standards as well as internationally agred standards.....or is it a terrorist group?

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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Phred]
    #4243226 - 06/01/05 06:40 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Let's pretend for a minute that the reports were actually factual and that at some point in time an American somewhere really had flushed a Koran down a toilet. Which is worse -- the act of illustrating contempt for a religious symbol or the act of murdering people who had absolutely nothing to do with the desecration?




This is missing the point - In this case you present, if the Koran didn't go down the toilet people would not have been killed. In other words putting the Koran down the toilet was the trigger. Of course the loss of human life seems a far greater crime to any humanitarian....but the act of responsibly in carrying out ones duty would have avoided that, if the root cause was some poor excuse for a soldier with no self control or discipline throwing the Koran down a toilet.

Edited by CJay (06/01/05 06:53 AM)

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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: CJay]
    #4243921 - 06/01/05 11:40 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

No, the trigger wasn't flushing the Koran down the toilet. The trigger was the indoctrination by radical Islamists that mistreatment of a book is to be avenged by murdering random individuals -- of your own religion, no less.

This would be analogous to a group of Americans in Future Shop's TV section watching a news report of some protest in France where the French were burning an American flag -- no, wait... not even seeing the footage of the actual burning; just having the anchorman claim that a Frenchman had burned a flag at some point in the last couple of years -- and that group of people then running out of the Future Shop to their cars, driving into the downtown area, and beating to death random shoppers.

Despite the repeated snickers in this forum at the American "Fundamentalist Christian Crazies", I seriously doubt anyone can imagine such an event occurring.



Phred


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Re: Pentagon confirms Koran incidents... [Re: Phred]
    #4248015 - 06/02/05 12:48 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Fair call

However, knowing how their cultural indoctrination makes them react when their most holy of things is mistreated, one has to work with that. Not just say 'Its just a fuckin book' because to them it is not. The symbol is the thing to them, whilst most Americans appreciate that their flag is just a symbol....I know you can say they burn our flag (or the French do) so we desecrate their book, but no one will ever get anywhere that way....the USA is about not doing it that way. Or at least was founded on the precept - secularisation demands it.

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