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InvisibleSilversoul
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One problem I see with "free trade"
    #4199635 - 05/20/05 03:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Is that it's not free enough. Under what we now call free trade, we have international mobility of capital and employers, but not of labor. An employer can move wherever the laborers will work the cheapest and have the least bargaining power. If the workers strike or try to get better working conditions for themselves, then the company will move elsewhere, and they will be stuck there, worse off than before. It seems to me that in order to be fair, we need to liberalize our immigration laws so as to allow free movement of labor as well as capital.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: Silversoul]
    #4199875 - 05/20/05 04:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

We need to liberalize our immigration laws anyway. We rely on immigrants to perform many jobs, and all people, at one time or another, were immigrants to this country. It's as if a group of people invaded a house and then locked the door behind them.

Good post, I agree.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: Ravus]
    #4200119 - 05/20/05 04:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The door isn't bolted shut. You have to knock and show who you are. Is the door to your house open to all comers at all hours to flop, and eat your food and raid your medicine cabinet, whether you know them or not?


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4200150 - 05/20/05 04:55 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Fortunately zappa nations aren't the same as individual residences. Someone built the house I live in and I purchased it from them or a subsequent buyer. The land owned by this country was built by no one and thus belongs to no one (or everyone).


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4200182 - 05/20/05 05:02 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

There should, of course, be basic security measures for immigrants, but other than simply checking immigrants out to make sure they are not here to harm the American people, restrictions on them should be loosened. If immigrants were not entitled to welfare or taxpayer forced notions that should be eliminated, then they would simply be part of the dynamic and growing workforce of America.

Immigrants actually help the U.S. in many ways. Through their own consumption, they increase the need for goods in the U.S., and bring their own money and savings with them to help the U.S. They often fill low-paying jobs, allowing struggling businesses to compete with foreign companies. I say we should eliminate welfare and any other incentive so that someone could come here and leech off of us, and open up the borders, provided there is enough security to protect America at a reasonable level.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: Ravus]
    #4200342 - 05/20/05 05:37 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That suits me just fine.  Now, let me know when that other inconvenient welfare shit gets removed.

As far as bringing their own money, well, I don't think so.  The single biggest source of income to Mexico is the money the illegals send back.  In the final economic analysis, the illegals are a tremendous drain on our economy and do cost legal workers a great deal of money by putting downward pressure on wages for physical and/or menial labor.  Don't you think that if they weren't here the wages would rise to attract and reward indigenous (:cool:) laborers?  Make it worth their while to sweat in the hot sun or freeze their asses off or do tedious and uninteresting jobs.  I often wish to tell smart high school kids that carpentry and construction is a great field with endless opportunity but when I see framing crews made up entirely of uninsured illegal Mexicans or Eastern Europeans I see that they have no fair chance.  It's not even the immigrant worker's fault.  It's the people who hire the contractors because they're 20% or 30% cheaper without regard for the status of the workers employed.  And don't get me wrong.  Everybody is guilty of shopping, and I don't blame them.  You all should also understand that prices for that work will go up.  A lot.

The perversion of the system is in the laxity of it's enforcement.  If you make a law enforce it.  If you're not going to enforce it, remove it.  Let more people in and make them play by the same rules.  And then absolutely and positively throw out anybody outside the channels and punish people who hire them.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: Ravus]
    #4200346 - 05/20/05 05:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The jobs are low paying because they fill them


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4200391 - 05/20/05 05:49 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

They're low-paying because they're here illegally, and thus aren't subject to minimum wage laws.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: Silversoul]
    #4200478 - 05/20/05 06:07 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

If you think minimum wage laws set the floor for construction you're crazy. Going rate for a Mexican at the local illegal shape up hall is $80 a day plus lunch. That is over $10 an hour. What's minimum wage now? $5 something. I suspect the backroom Mexicans in restaurants around here get about the same as the construction guys. Minimum wage is of no consequence around here.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4200485 - 05/20/05 06:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Their employers also don't have to pay Medicare, soc sec, workers comp, liability or the costs involved in filing the payments.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: Ravus]
    #4200523 - 05/20/05 06:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


I say we should eliminate welfare and any other incentive so that someone could come here and leech off of us





O_O

Welfare is a Godsent if correctly used. It is a virtue and one of the few redeeming features of "civilized" societies.

What you say sounds a bit like "let the poor rot in the streets, reduce the services provided by the richest nation in the world to their own citizens to third-world standards and may the best man win"

The best man is the one holding the gun. Not the one who got educated or delivers quality work but the one driven to violence by appalling living conditions.

That is third-world reality and that's what happens if you reduce government support of citizens to the third world level.

If you lost your job and are looking for another you can have money on loan to sustain you in the mean time. If you're an abandoned orphan with no arms or legs the state provides for you if nobody else will. That's welfare at its finest.

A healthy welfare system is good for the entire country. The money passes through their hands to flow back into the economy and the guy inbetween jobs gets the best start he could have for his new job.

Welfare, health care etc. are humanitarian, civilized, noble and just institutions if they are made to work like they should.

Dropping the bottom out of the misery people can stumble into if luck doesnt smile at them in my view is unacceptable.

If a construction worker gets hit by a sack of cement from the third floor I want the state to be there for him with a little sum for sustainance and basic medical care to help him overcome his misfortune and get to work again. The state should look after its less fortunate citizens, its part of what we all pay tax for.

And America opening its borders without restriction?
I'd like to see twenty million Arab immigrants get a warm welcome by the USA. Hey toss in a hundred million third-world Asians and Africans too! Welcome? I don't think so.

If you open up the US borders this is all good and fine, but expect the average American's income going down by an order of magnitude.
If that, becoming a second-world nation, is acceptable then opening up the borders to unrestricted immigration is the way to decentralize capital.

If you don't want wealth bleeding out of your country you need to restrict immigration.. AND supply immigrants with the opportunity to integrate into the fabric of society. Yes: that means state-sponsored language courses and expansion of the educational systems.
A nation can benefit from immigration, as do the immigrants themselves, but only if the State invests time and money into the newcomers to turn them into active citizens.
You don't want an Arab ghetto next to your Asian ghetto and your African ghetto.

America (or any nation) should invest into the people it has (which includes, yes, a working welfare system) within its borders as well as give newcomers a good start in society.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: Asante]
    #4200730 - 05/20/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:


I say we should eliminate welfare and any other incentive so that someone could come here and leech off of us





O_O

Welfare is a Godsent if correctly used. It is a virtue and one of the few redeeming features of "civilized" societies.

What you say sounds a bit like "let the poor rot in the streets, reduce the services provided by the richest nation in the world to their own citizens to third-world standards and may the best man win"

The best man is the one holding the gun. Not the one who got educated or delivers quality work but the one driven to violence by appalling living conditions.

That is third-world reality and that's what happens if you reduce government support of citizens to the third world level.

If you lost your job and are looking for another you can have money on loan to sustain you in the mean time. If you're an abandoned orphan with no arms or legs the state provides for you if nobody else will. That's welfare at its finest.

A healthy welfare system is good for the entire country. The money passes through their hands to flow back into the economy and the guy inbetween jobs gets the best start he could have for his new job.

This is strongly contraindicated by every nations experience with a welfare system. Without the incentive to work people will choose not to work. Proven time and time again

Welfare, health care etc. are humanitarian, civilized, noble and just institutions if they are made to work like they should.

Dropping the bottom out of the misery people can stumble into if luck doesnt smile at them in my view is unacceptable.

And if "luck" doesn't smile on them because they continue to make incredibly stupid decisions we should all be happy to hold out a net for them? The asshole junkie/drunk who won't stop? The person who continues to have unprotected sex and gets AIDS? And spreads AIDS? The idiot with three kids who can't support one. You don't need "luck" to get by. Almost anyone can get by.

If a construction worker gets hit by a sack of cement from the third floor I want the state to be there for him with a little sum for sustainance and basic medical care to help him overcome his misfortune and get to work again. The state should look after its less fortunate citizens, its part of what we all pay tax for.

The state is only involved in that it requires companies to carry insurance for just this sort of thing. Insurance companies charge different rates depending on the job hazard. Treemen have to pay more than secretaries. It is appropriate and it exists and the government does not need to be any more involved than it is.

And America opening its borders without restriction?
I'd like to see twenty million Arab immigrants get a warm welcome by the USA. Hey toss in a hundred million third-world Asians and Africans too! Welcome? I don't think so.

The day America opens it's borders without restriction will be the beginning of America passing China in population

If you open up the US borders this is all good and fine, but expect the average American's income going down by an order of magnitude.
If that, becoming a second-world nation, is acceptable then opening up the borders to unrestricted immigration is the way to decentralize capital.

The average American's will, but that will be because you added low income people. The average income of current Americans may go up. Or it may go down. Or it may be unchanged.
I have no fucking idea what you mean by decentralizing capital. The only capital I care about is mine.


If you don't want wealth bleeding out of your country you need to restrict immigration.. AND supply immigrants with the opportunity to integrate into the fabric of society. Yes: that means state-sponsored language courses and expansion of the educational systems.
A nation can benefit from immigration, as do the immigrants themselves, but only if the State invests time and money into the newcomers to turn them into active citizens.
You don't want an Arab ghetto next to your Asian ghetto and your African ghetto.

Message to immigrants. Learn English. You pay for the classes. They are quite cheap. But you have to go and try. English lessons are way cheaper than the coyotes who snuck you in, but YOU have to take the classes. It is not this state's (my) responsibility to give you anything. Get that in your head right up front.

America (or any nation) should invest into the people it has (which includes, yes, a working welfare system) within its borders as well as give newcomers a good start in society.




Government should mostly get the fuck out of the way. That means not making some people pay for other people's opportunity.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4201535 - 05/21/05 12:04 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Speak English or get the fuck out.

I have some rental property. I don't rent to anyone that can't speak English. I fear that someday I will be taken to court for discrimination. If I did rent to those people, I would have no legal standing if they didn't pay me. I could take them to court, but I would have to admit to the judge that I knew that they couldn't read or understand the rental contract that I had them sign. It would render that document null and void. There is no way for me to have a legaly binding contract that is enforcable under the law, and since I can't have a rental contract I don't rent to them.

I also don't speak to people that can't speak English. I don't know another language, and if they don't know mine we can't communicate. So I actively discriminate against these people by not speaking with them and denying them an opportunity for housing. Maybe someday they will own all of my property after a lawsuit.

I was in Cleveland during the big east coast blackout a while back. My dad was doing some outpatient chemotherapy at the Cleveland Clinic and we were staying at a hotel. When that hotel when out of power, the one guy who could speak English had left and gone to try and buy flashlights. My dad was on machines that need electricty, some pumps and stuff. I was concerned. I could not find one person in the entire hotel that could speak English. And this was Cleveland Ohio. The same Cleveland on Lake Erie, the northern border of the United States. It isn't all SoCal and Arizona. These people are fucking everywhere. They have really nice smiles, and they probably have some neat stories to tell. If only I knew what the fuck they were saying.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4201588 - 05/21/05 12:23 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I could not find one person in the entire hotel that could speak English.

I call shenanigans.

In Miami I can find many people in every single place I've been to that speak English. Every other country I've been to has had at least a couple people in every major hotel who speak English.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: cb9fl]
    #4201672 - 05/21/05 12:53 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

speak english opr get the fuck out




Why are you so threatened by people speaking another language? Who gives a fuck? If you can't communicate with them what does it matter to you? Do you need something from them? Maybe a bag? This is pure xenophobia. If a legal citizen of the US can't speak english it makes no difference to me. When you ancestors got off of the boat they probably couldn't speak english either.


Quote:

I could not find one person in the entire hotel that could speak English.




I call straight bullshit. I work at Home Depot IN SoCal in an area where the latino population dwarfs all others by a 2-1 margin. 1/4 of the day laborers who sit around the parking lot (and have entered the country within the past few weeks likely) hoping for work can speak enough english to communicate with you well enough to find a battery, a bathroom, or an outlet


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4201692 - 05/21/05 12:58 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The single biggest source of income to Mexico is the money the illegals send back




This is absolute bullshit. I agree with alot of what you said in your post, it is a drain on our economy but this is horseshit. Stop getting your information from xenophobic right-wing blogs. As much as you'd like to believe this it is isn't even close to true.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: cb9fl]
    #4201694 - 05/21/05 12:58 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I should qualify that quote. I found other people who spoke English. The other people who spoke English were also guests staying at the hotel.

It wasn't a big Hotel, but they had to have no less than 65 rooms. It wasn't a small affair either. It was a chain and my memory is fading. I am guessing Marriot Residence Inn. It had a kitchen in the room.

The security guard was Slavic I think, from behind the old Iron Curtain. Nice guy. Great smile. Totaly worth dick if your hotel loses power and you are trying to keep your dad alive on machines.

All the people who worked the buffet and made the beds came from South America from what I gathered. I know harlbla espangnolioa.

When the power went out the manager went to get the fucking flashlights, and nobody in that fucking place spoke a lick of English. I remember this quite well. I was trying to keep my dad alive and I was in a state of panic.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #4201727 - 05/21/05 01:09 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:

Quote:

I could not find one person in the entire hotel that could speak English.




I call straight bullshit. I work at Home Depot IN SoCal in an area where the latino population dwarfs all others by a 2-1 margin. 1/4 of the day laborers who sit around the parking lot (and have entered the country within the past few weeks likely) hoping for work can speak enough english to communicate with you well enough to find a battery, a bathroom, or an outlet




Nope. They didn't speak english. I know that I am right on this one. I was there. And I didn't need a bathroom or an outlet. The whole fucking city and East coast were blacked out. I needed a fucking generator or an ambulance to get to one. Do most of the people hanging out at the SoCal HomeDepot have those things?

You amuse me.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4201782 - 05/21/05 01:20 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm happy I amuse you. I just find it hard to believe that you could find anybody who could speak english in a cleveland Ohio Marriot...but you already claimed that you did find somebody. Don't blame the spanish speaking people, blame marrriot if %100 of its staff is non-english speaking. Sounds like something very fishy is happening there.

Quote:

Do most of the people hanging out at the SoCal HomeDepot have those things?




Actually come to think of it, a spanish speaking individual who works there probably would give you a good deal on a generator. But you wouldn't care to communicate with them because their native tounge is different than yours.

Do most of the people hanging out at a marriot in cleveland have those things?


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: One problem I see with "free trade" [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #4201844 - 05/21/05 01:34 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The only people that I could find that spoke English were other hotel guests. Nobody at the Hotel employed by the Hotel could speak English. The Power was out. People had questions. My dad was on Chemotherapy and would not eat. He was being fed by machines. Those machines need power. I had questions. Nobody spoke English.

You call bullshit. You call me xenophobic. You can call me any name you want too. I wasn't thinking "What would Jesus do?", or "What would Dirt McQuirt think of the political ramifications of my behavior?", I was thinking "OH MY FUCKING GOD, MY DAD IS DYING."

It kind of puts things in a different perspective. I am sure if I wanted some drywall work the WalMart parking lot in SoCal would be ideal. That wasnt't what happened.

Thanks for your time.


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