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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Women in combat
    #4198625 - 05/20/05 10:18 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The military isn't a place to try out PC garbage in the name of "equality". Those who study and train for war their entire life, realize every implication of combat and the repercussions of not having everything in order. Failure to address a certain situation can mean losing our soldiers, and possibily the war. Because of this, these people should be trusted to make every, and all decisions pertaining to the control of the military. If they feel women, for whatever reason, are ill-suited for combat, or that their influence could harm other soldiers in combat, then we do as they say. I don't want a feminist in California telling a life-long general how to manage his front-line troops. Too much is at stake, including the lives of those who are sworn to defend us.

In short, enough PC bullshit.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4198640 - 05/20/05 10:21 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The same bullshit was spewed about blacks before Truman integrated the military.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Women in combat [Re: Silversoul]
    #4198655 - 05/20/05 10:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I wonder if it cost us any lives in combat.

Edit: test, please ignore. -Seuss


Edited by Seuss (05/20/05 10:50 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4198657 - 05/20/05 10:30 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

As a matter of fact, it was entirely necessary.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4198692 - 05/20/05 10:40 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

What makes you think that a woman can't preform well in a combat situation?

As long as they can pass the physical tests the military has to offer....who are you to say who can or can not go into combat?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Women in combat [Re: niteowl]
    #4198721 - 05/20/05 10:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

As long as they can pass the physical tests the military has to offer....who are you to say who can or can not go into combat?

I am not a military expert. So I am NOT to say who can go into combat. That is exactly what I'm saying. Leave it up to the military to decide.

But on a side-note, there are other factors regardless of physical ability. One is the lure and pressure of sex and instincts that are associated with it. Not something you should be thinking about or dealing with in war.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4198741 - 05/20/05 10:52 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So why are you pissing and moaning about women in combat?

Leave it up to the military to decide.

The military only allows women into certain combat situations.....not all.


Do some research before you start running your mouth about a situation you obviously know very little about.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Women in combat [Re: niteowl]
    #4198759 - 05/20/05 10:56 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So why are you pissing and moaning about women in combat?

Uh, because recently the military made this decision and its been on the news, and since this forum is called "politics, activism, and law" I figured I'd make a topic. Is that ok with you?

The military only allows women into certain combat situations.....not all.


What the hell are you talking about? They don't let women on the front lines to fight and die, period.



Do some research before you start running your mouth about a situation you obviously know very little about.


Cute use of bolding letters but you still come up as nonsensical. Seriously, what are you talking about?


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4198791 - 05/20/05 11:04 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
The military only allows women into certain combat situations.....not all.


What the hell are you talking about? They don't let women on the front lines to fight and die, period.





Women are allowed to work in "combat support" units.

They aren't involved in "combat" but they are sent to the "front lines" for support purposes.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Women in combat [Re: niteowl]
    #4198793 - 05/20/05 11:06 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, there are shitloads of positions in the military but by front lines I specifically meant sitting in the trench and shooting the bad guy on the other side.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4198825 - 05/20/05 11:14 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

They go out on patrols and engage insurgents when attacked. There have been women casualties in Iraq due to convoy attacks and some combat due to those attacks.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4198984 - 05/20/05 11:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If they can pass the physical test they should be ok. But most of you know how "many" woman throw balls poorly, would you wannt to be fighting along side one of them when they throw a grenade?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Women in combat [Re: barfightlard]
    #4199138 - 05/20/05 12:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)



"From the report of the Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces (report date November 15, 1992, published in book form by Brassey's in 1993): "The average female Army recruit is 4.8 inches shorter, 31.7 pounds lighter, has 37.4 fewer pounds of muscle, and 5.7 more pounds of fat than the average male recruit. She has only 55 percent of the upper-body strength and 72 percent of the lower-body strength? An Army study of 124 men and 186 women done in 1988 found that women are more than twice as likely to suffer leg injuries and nearly five times as likely to suffer [stress] fractures as men."

Further: "The Commission heard an abundance of expert testimony about the physical differences between men and women that can be summarized as follows:

"Women's aerobic capacity is significantly lower, meaning they cannot carry as much as far as fast as men, and they are more susceptible to fatigue.

"In terms of physical capability, the upper five percent of women are at the level of the male median. The average 20-to-30 year-old woman has the same aerobic capacity as a 50 year-old man."

From the same report: "Lt Col. William Gregor, United States Army, testified before the Commission regarding a survey he conducted at an Army ROTC Advanced Summer Camp on 623 women and 3540 men. ?Evidence Gregor presented to the Commission includes:

"(a) Using the standard Army Physical Fitness Test, he found that the upper quintile of women at West point achieved scores on the test equivalent to the bottom quintile of men.

"(c) Only 21 women out of the initial 623 (3.4%) achieved a score equal to the male mean score of 260.

"(d) On the push-up test, only seven percent of women can meet a score of 60, while 78 percent of men exceed it.

"(e) Adopting a male standard of fitness at West Point would mean 70 percent of the women he studied would be separated as failures at the end of their junior year, only three percent would be eligible for the Recondo badge, and not one would receive the Army Physical Fitness badge?."

The following, quoted by Brian Mitchell in his book Women in the Military: Flirting With Disaster (Regnery, 1998) and widely known to students of the military, are results of a test the Navy did to see how well women could perform in damage control -- i.e., tasks necessary to save a ship that had been hit. Test % Women Failing % Men Failing
Before Training After Training Before Training After Training
Stretcher carry, level 63 38 0 0
Stretcher carry/up, down ladder 94 88 0 0
Fire hose 19 6 0 0
P250 pump, carry down 99 99 9 4
P250 pump, carry up 73 52 0 0
P250, start pump 90 75 0 0
Remove SSTO pump 99 99 0 0
Torque engine bolt 78 47 0 0

*Also from the Commission's report: "Non-deployability briefings before the Commission showed that women were three times more non-deployable than men, primarily due to pregnancy, during Operations Desert Shield and Storm. According to Navy Captain Martha Whitehead's testimony before the Commission, 'the primary reason for the women being unable to deploy was pregnancy, that representing 47 percent of the women who could not deploy.'"

*When I was writing the military column, I looked into the experience of Canada, which tried the experiment of feminization. I got the report from Ottawa, as did the Commission. Said the Commission:

"After extensive research, Canada has found little evidence to support the integration of women into ground units. Of 103 Canadian women who volunteered to joint infantry units, only one graduated the initial training course. The Canadian experience corroborates the testimony of LTC Gregor, who said the odds of selecting a woman matching the physical size and strength of the average male are more than 130-to-1.

From Military Medicine, October 1997, which I got from the Pentagon's library:

(p. 690): "One-third of 450 female soldiers surveyed indicated that they experienced problematic urinary incontinence during exercise and field training activities. The other crucial finding of the survey was probably that 13.3% of the respondents restricted fluids significantly while participating in field exercises." Because peeing was embarrassing.


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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Women in combat [Re: barfightlard]
    #4199143 - 05/20/05 12:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I would hope that someone who fails grenade training wouldn't be given grenades to throw :smirk:

It's not like they just pick up recruits and dump them on the front lines with no training whatsoever. I'm sure they have to learn how to toss a grenade, before anyone hands them a live one.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4199145 - 05/20/05 12:47 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

And looner, what makes you think that the career military guys who don't want women on the front lines are say so because of the abilities of women as opposed to just being sexist?

Do you honestly think that military generals are free from all sexist attitudes?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Women in combat [Re: trendal]
    #4199147 - 05/20/05 12:48 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If they can pass the same physical-requirements as the male recruits, there should be no reason to keep women out of the military other than being sexist.


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
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OfflineAdviapacis
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Re: Women in combat [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4199149 - 05/20/05 12:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Please, let's not cloud the issue with facts and statistics. It's feelings that are important in fielding an army.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Women in combat [Re: looner2]
    #4199317 - 05/20/05 01:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

When I was in the Navy, I was part of the first class ever that allowed women to train with us in combat roles. I heard the same arguments that women would be too distracting or couldn't handle the job...etc...When it came down to it, physically...the truth is that they couldn't keep up with the guys, but this was the Navy afterall and how much actual physical work was there?...next to none. When it came to actual combat exercises (Naval Maneuvers and such) The women not only kept up, they DOMINATED the men...on average, their grades were much higher and not ONE woman dropped out of the course, yet 25% of the men did.

My own opinion is that women should be allowed in combat situations...perhaps not in the Army, where there is much more physical demand than the Navy or Airforce..unless they can do everything the men can on a level playing field.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Women in combat [Re: Adviapacis]
    #4199351 - 05/20/05 01:57 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If they can pass the same physical-requirements as the male recruits, there should be no reason to keep women out of the military other than being sexist.


Emotion and mental tests are in order as well. If I was stuck fighting a war I would hate to know the woman next to me who passed all the physical training tests with flying colors was a pacifist.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Women in combat [Re: cb9fl]
    #4199399 - 05/20/05 02:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Men are pacifist too, but I doubt many pacifists join the armed forces either way :wink:

As for "psychological" tests, I would think the training itself is the psychological test: those who can't handle the stress, drop out or crack.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Edited by trendal (05/20/05 02:20 PM)


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