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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans?
    #4194858 - 05/19/05 12:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I would say republicans because they are already on the inside and they have a chokehold on our government. They have more power and are more dangerous to America.
Repubs or Terrorists?
You may choose only one
repoops
terrorists


Votes accepted from (05/19/05 12:17 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


Edited by 1stimer (05/19/05 12:18 PM)


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: 1stimer]
    #4194871 - 05/19/05 12:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

i'd say the joint democrap-repoop system.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: vampirism]
    #4194929 - 05/19/05 12:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

that wasnt an option.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: 1stimer]
    #4194935 - 05/19/05 12:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

then i call this poll a mockery


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: 1stimer]
    #4195670 - 05/19/05 03:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

forgot a STAL option.. D-


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:mushroom2:
Buying Bulk Prints, Fall 2020.




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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Adden]
    #4195684 - 05/19/05 03:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What is worse, the lack of intelligence in the original post or..........?


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OfflineKalix
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #4196793 - 05/19/05 07:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Morrowind is inherently correct as far as I'm concerned. Our two party system is a sham.


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Kalix]
    #4196805 - 05/19/05 07:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Indeed.  Down with the duopoly! :thumbdown:


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OfflineAdviapacis
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4196810 - 05/19/05 07:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I concur as well.


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OfflineRetired
Registered: 03/01/05
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Adviapacis]
    #4196828 - 05/19/05 08:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

On the shroomery who is democratic and who is republican?


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OfflineAdviapacis
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Retired]
    #4196832 - 05/19/05 08:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have no party affiliation.


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OfflineKalix
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Adviapacis]
    #4196843 - 05/19/05 08:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Adviapacis said:
I have no party affiliation.



I'm a progressive, drug-addled, lunatic  :crazy2:


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: vampirism]
    #4197365 - 05/19/05 10:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
i'd say the joint democrap-repoop system.




Tantamount to terroists.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisibleentheoindole
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: daimyo]
    #4197438 - 05/19/05 10:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

Morrowind said:
i'd say the joint democrap-repoop system.




Tantamount to terroists.





:yesnod: :3rd_eye: :biggrin:


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Offlinenightkrawler
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: entheoindole]
    #4197470 - 05/19/05 10:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Republicans are far more dangerous because they run around with bombs strapped to them killing themselves and innocent people...duh


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Not all who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: entheoindole]
    #4197474 - 05/19/05 10:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Politicians always want power, so their nature isn't ever to be trusted as a testament to the "good" of the country. But, the people voting for them, and the ideas that each party represents honestly want what is best for the country. They may be very wrong, but the good intent is there.

But the terrorists. Those low-life, inhuman, foul, creatures from the abyss want to kill you for no other reason that being an american. For that I condemn them to death. I condemn their religion to death for inspiring them. I condemn their children to death because they will only replace their fathers after they kill innocent people. I condemn their mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles to death for saying nothing, and chanting anti-american death songs at every opportunity. I condemn anyone who is muslim, dark-skinned, and speaks with an arabic tongue to DEATH. Not because they are who they are, but because its either them or us, and as Jesus can attest, it will be the pure of heart and those who strive for family, nation, and God who will triumph. In short, AMERICA WILL RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisibleentheoindole
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: looner2]
    #4197510 - 05/19/05 11:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Politicians always want power, so their nature isn't ever to be trusted as a testament to the "good" of the country. But, the people voting for them, and the ideas that each party represents honestly want what is best for the country. They may be very wrong, but the good intent is there.

But the terrorists. Those low-life, inhuman, foul, creatures from the abyss want to kill you for no other reason that being an american. For that I condemn them to death. I condemn their religion to death for inspiring them. I condemn their children to death because they will only replace their fathers after they kill innocent people. I condemn their mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles to death for saying nothing, and chanting anti-american death songs at every opportunity. I condemn anyone who is muslim, dark-skinned, and speaks with an arabic tongue to DEATH. Not because they are who they are, but because its either them or us, and as Jesus can attest, it will be the pure of heart and those who strive for family, nation, and God who will triumph. In short, AMERICA WILL RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!





:whoa: Whoa, you sound like a fascist Nazi pig to me! It's no mistake that our national bird is an Eagle. It was handed down from Rome to Nazi Germany and from them to the USA. All "great and lofty" nation fall. The higher you build up the worse the crash will be... I just hope this nation doesn't collapse and fall under the rule of a Theocratic state such as some in the Middle East. In my eyes, these types of tyrannies are much worse than communism and such...

Of course, I should be care full what I'm saying, I just may be "investigated"/"incarcerated" for having an opinion and using my American right to Freedom of Speech...

We are truly no longer "Free men and women". Our rights are slowly being yanked out from under us by our bipartisan big brothers.

If only people could put aside their differences and form an Anarchistic Utopia. This is my pipe dream!


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OfflineAdviapacis
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: entheoindole]
    #4197556 - 05/19/05 11:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

entheoindole said:
It's no mistake that our national bird is an Eagle. It was handed down from Rome to Nazi Germany and from them to the USA.



I see a mistake. The bald eagle was adopted as the United States' national symbol in 1782. If you check your history books, you'll find that Germany morphed into Nazi Germany in the early 1930s.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: nightkrawler]
    #4197581 - 05/19/05 11:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Look at those people that opppose the republicans. Bus bombings all over them.


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Invisibleentheoindole
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Adviapacis]
    #4197604 - 05/19/05 11:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I wasn't speaking literally. I was alluding to the symbolism involved.
If makes you feel better, I'll retract it, NOT!


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: 1stimer]
    #4197612 - 05/19/05 11:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans?

It is a symbiotic relationship contrived and controlled by the Devil herself.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineAdviapacis
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: daimyo]
    #4197613 - 05/19/05 11:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
... the Devil herself.



You've been married before, haven't you?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Adviapacis]
    #4197973 - 05/20/05 02:53 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Jesus, you guys talk as if Republicans are any more authoritarian than Democrats. Between all three I think the guys who actually want to kill US civilians in mass numbers would be the more dangerous, but I guess that's JUST ME.:shrug: Go figure. Fillabusters and suicide bombings, same thing.


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2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4198043 - 05/20/05 03:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I wouldn't hold one of the major parties as being morally superior to the other. I think they're both equally to blame. But I think that together, they constitute a bigger threat to our freedom than terrorists do. The chances that I'll get blown up on a plane are extremely small. The chances that I'll go to jail for something that grows naturally from the ground are much higher.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4198349 - 05/20/05 05:23 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But the terrorists. Those low-life, inhuman, foul, creatures from the abyss want to kill you for no other reason that being an american. For that I condemn them to death. I condemn their religion to death for inspiring them. I condemn their children to death because they will only replace their fathers after they kill innocent people. I condemn their mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles to death for saying nothing, and chanting anti-american death songs at every opportunity. I condemn anyone who is muslim, dark-skinned, and speaks with an arabic tongue to DEATH. Not because they are who they are, but because its either them or us, and as Jesus can attest, it will be the pure of heart and those who strive for family, nation, and God who will triumph.




Wow...the irony.

Fuck terrorists and fuck people who lump the whole of Islam with them. Fuck the US government and Fuck people who lump all of America with that.

Oh yeah, Fuck democrats and fuck republicans...............

While we are at it Fuck Green Bay Packers fans and fuck trust-fund babies and fuck people who live in Orange County


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineKalix
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4199390 - 05/20/05 02:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Well, I wouldn't hold one of the major parties as being morally superior to the other. I think they're both equally to blame. But I think that together, they constitute a bigger threat to our freedom than terrorists do. The chances that I'll get blown up on a plane are extremely small. The chances that I'll go to jail for something that grows naturally from the ground are much higher.




--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: nightkrawler]
    #4199442 - 05/20/05 02:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Im not talking about the terrorists or republicans killing people. im talking about who is a bigger threat to american ideals. Republicans are definately more dangerous to american ideals.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: 1stimer]
    #4199898 - 05/20/05 04:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Terrorists have done relatively little damage to this country. They've killed a few thousand people, but so have many other factors. Medical malpractice, tobacco, alcohol, all of these kill quite a few Americans, many times more than the terrorists, but are they more dangerous to our freedom than the republican and democratic parties? Not in my opinion.

You should've said Republicans/ Democrats. They might as well be one party anyway.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Ravus]
    #4200742 - 05/20/05 07:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think Republicans (or not all of them at least) are diametricaly opposed to American ideals. In fact their rivals are the ones who suggest using the Consitution as guidelines, as a "living document" that is flexible to any fashionable notion. If you look at republican and democrat appointed judges the republican ones do tend to be more libertarian and 'strict constructionist'. When republicans want to change something at least they have worked within the system.

However, if you are on that line of thinking you could say that actually terrorists are the greatest threat to American society because they (in theory) empower republicans or democrats to qoute "take away freedoms".


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4201248 - 05/20/05 09:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If there were no terrorists, politicians would use another excuse to take away freedoms. I say politicians because the vast majority of politicians are democrats/ republicans in the U.S., so this is the for sake of simplicity.

Who negatively affects the vast majority of the American population more, terrorists or politicians? Terrorists don't take away my freedoms. Terrorists don't take away half of my paycheck. Terrorists don't throw me in jail for possessing a bit of plant material. Those are all politicians.

Terrorists are a small minority that would probably be fought off rather easily by the armed American population. Republicans and democrats are like viruses disguised among us that want to throw people in jail for victimless crimes and take away their money against their will for useless projects.

Between democrats and republicans, both have their ups and downs, but overall the downs of both of them overwhelm the ups. The Supreme Court judges appointed by the repoops do seem to be better than the icy liberals appointed by the democrats in some cases.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Ravus]
    #4201294 - 05/20/05 10:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Partisanism is the true danger.


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Invisibleentheoindole
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4202897 - 05/21/05 12:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Partisanism is the true danger.




Agreed! These fools are ruining this country together. Not one party on it's own is to blame!

*Chants* "Down with bipartisan politics!"


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InvisibleFoci
me?
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: vampirism]
    #4203045 - 05/21/05 01:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
i'd say the joint democrap-repoop system.




yup i'd have to agree with this... both of em suck. i didnt vote for ethier of em... i voted for a certified scuba diver instructor


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Market=zero rating due to tahoe not helping with thispost. He posted he wanted 5 shrooms. thats it... and since he didnt help and i didn't give him a rating. he gave me bad ratings... rock on. great shroomer.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Foci]
    #4203050 - 05/21/05 01:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

hey geordi


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: 1stimer]
    #4207986 - 05/22/05 10:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

the real danger to all of us are conservatives, especially religous conservatives. terrorist, fascists, republicans are all cut from the same cloth. religous conservatisim will be the end of us.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4208195 - 05/22/05 11:27 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Fascism is cut from religious conservatism? If you're using fascism in the sense of Nazi German fascism, then that's completely wrong.

Hitler kept the guise of having religion in Nazi Germany because the people were religious and he knew the uselessness of trying to abolish Christianity all at once, but Jesus was a Jew, and Christianity is not a Nordic religion. The Nazis executed many priests and went completely against Christianity is most ways, so unless you're talking about some sort of religion in fascism unknowable to me, that part doesn't seem true.

And in fact, many of those who want to hold near-absolute power try to abolish religion so the people can put all that love towards the state and their leader. Look at many of the dictators throughout history and you'll find that religious conservatism doesn't lead to fascism or totalitarianism in most examples.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: looner2]
    #4209562 - 05/23/05 12:16 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LOONER2 says:
.
But the terrorists. Those low-life, inhuman, foul, creatures from the abyss want to kill you for no other reason that being an american. For that I condemn them to death. I condemn their religion to death for inspiring them. I condemn their children to death because they will only replace their fathers after they kill innocent people. I condemn their mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles to death for saying nothing, and chanting anti-american death songs at every opportunity. I condemn anyone who is muslim, dark-skinned, and speaks with an arabic tongue to DEATH. Not because they are who they are, but because its either them or us, and as Jesus can attest, it will be the pure of heart and those who strive for family, nation, and God who will triumph. In short, AMERICA WILL RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!





Quote:

SHEIK EL-OONER2 says:
.
But the capitalists. Those low-life, inhuman, foul, creatures from the abyss want to kill you for no other reason that being an Arab. For that I condemn them to death. I condemn their Christian religion to death for inspiring them. I condemn their children to death because they will only replace their fathers after they kill innocent people. I condemn their mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles to death for saying nothing, and chanting anti-arab propaganda at every opportunity. I condemn anyone who is christian, white, and speaks with an american tongue to DEATH. Not because they are who they are, but because its either them or us, and as Mohammed can attest, it will be the pure of heart and those who strive for family, nation, and God who will triumph. In short, SHARIA WILL RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!





Looner2: as you can see you're the exact same *** as the ones you like to wipe out. All I had to do was swap USA identifying words with Arab identifying words and you're getting a message that's so fundamentalist that Al Jazeera won't broadcast it, yet the Shroomery allows you "freedom of speech" the Arabs are denied.
Wake up. Your enemy is in the mirror.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Asante]
    #4209609 - 05/23/05 12:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: exclusive58]
    #4209620 - 05/23/05 12:43 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

looner2+

do you actually think that *terrorists* just want to kill you because you are *american*

do you think its that simple? that people would dedicate their whole lives, and work their ass off just to kill someone because they carry an american passport? Wow, You`re strikingly dumb.

nah, sorry, nobody is that idiotic, my bad.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Doom]
    #4209668 - 05/23/05 01:03 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

No flaming in this forum, Doom. You get one warning. This is that warning.



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4209896 - 05/23/05 02:18 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

WOOGA WOOGA BOOGA!


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Doom]
    #4214703 - 05/24/05 05:08 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Well, its nice to know I was banned for 24 hours for my views. Thanks to Wiccan_Seeker. I wasn't even warned once, and last I checked, Wiccan isn't even a mod of this forum.

Regardless, I stand by what I said. I had made a reply to Wiccan, but he banned me after replying to what I said, (very honorable), so I don't feel like retyping it.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: looner2]
    #4221219 - 05/26/05 04:25 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

You deserved it.. Leave the hate speech to Rush, surely there are more intellectual ways to share your feelings without condemning innocent relatives of terrorists to death, not to mention any dark-skinned arab or muslim.. Btw, I, an American am chanting anti-Amerikan songs this moment.. As I plan a move out of this god-forsaken wasteland.


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: looner2]
    #4221481 - 05/26/05 06:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I had made a reply to Wiccan, but he banned me after replying to what I said, (very honorable)




For the record: I did not ban you. What I did do however was use the "Inform a moderator" button that's at the bottom left of each post to inform the Pol & Act moderators of your post in case they missed it. I'm not going to ban someone for posts on a forum I am not a moderator of.

In the many months I'm a moderator I only once banned a single user, for a mere 24 hours, in my first week of modship and not once after that.

I tend to solve problems through edits and PM's but in this post, blatant advocacy of murdering every middle-eastern man woman and child for the crime of being in the same geographic location and of the same religion and ethnicity of some terrorists, I felt that reasoning would get nobody nowhere. I informed the local moderators, like any member could (and in this post's case should) and you got your ban.

This is not a democracy and there is no freedom of speech here, not for you and not for me.
Would you want islamic fundamentalists setting up camp here and start propagandizing? Would that be a good thing?
The same thing goes for what you call "your views" and which are the exact mirror image of the rabid middle east fundamentalism every sane man is opposed to.

If your view is advocating genocide it has no place on the Shroomery boards. And everybody seems to get that but you.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Doom]
    #4222984 - 05/26/05 04:33 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Read about some hijackings and who's passports they looked for when deciding how to kill.


--------------------


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Ravus]
    #4331323 - 06/24/05 05:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Fascism is cut from religious conservatism? If you're using fascism in the sense of Nazi German fascism, then that's completely wrong.

Hitler kept the guise of having religion in Nazi Germany because the people were religious and he knew the uselessness of trying to abolish Christianity all at once, but Jesus was a Jew, and Christianity is not a Nordic religion. The Nazis executed many priests and went completely against Christianity is most ways, so unless you're talking about some sort of religion in fascism unknowable to me, that part doesn't seem true.

And in fact, many of those who want to hold near-absolute power try to abolish religion so the people can put all that love towards the state and their leader. Look at many of the dictators throughout history and you'll find that religious conservatism doesn't lead to fascism or totalitarianism in most examples.




Do you really think the republicans really believe in Christianity? They use the religion in the same way as Hitler, to control stupid people.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: LSDempire]
    #4348311 - 06/28/05 11:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This whole american system of feces, its demonstration and re-use is a bit suspicious as a democratic system.

All in favour of adding "the democrap and repoop system" to the poll, say I. Also, I believe to preserve a fair choice, i think Morrowind should also be a legitimate answer.


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Peace
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4348476 - 06/28/05 11:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

you are right BCBUDJOHN


doom said:


"looner2+
do you actually think that *terrorists* just want to kill you because you are *american*

do you think its that simple? that people would dedicate their whole lives, and work their ass off just to kill someone because they carry an american passport? Wow, You`re strikingly dumb.

nah, sorry, nobody is that idiotic, my bad. "




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1077288,00.html


GHAITH ABDUL-AHAD / GETTY IMAGES FOR TIMEA 20-year-old Iraqi insurgent trained to become a suicide bomber.
From the Magazine | World

Inside the Mind of an Iraqi Suicide Bomber

IN A RARE INTERVIEW, A TERRORIST IN TRAINING REVEALS CHILLING SECRETS ABOUT THE INSURGENCY'S DEADLIEST WEAPONS

By APARISIM GHOSH / BAGHDAD
SUBSCRIBE TO TIMEPRINTE-MAILMORE BY AUTHORTIME Cover: Inside the Iraqi Insurgency
TIME Archive: The Enemy With Many Faces (2004)
TIME Archive: Meet the New Jihad (2004)

Posted Sunday, Jun. 26, 2005
One day soon, this somber young man plans to offer up a final prayer and then blow himself up along with as many U.S. or Iraqi soldiers as he can reach. Marwan Abu Ubeida says he has been training for months to carry out a suicide mission. He doesn't know when or where he will be ordered to climb into a bomb-laden vehicle or strap on an explosives-filled vest but says he is eager for the moment to come. While he waits, he spends much of his time rehearsing that last prayer. "First I will ask Allah to bless my mission with a high rate of casualties among the Americans," he says, speaking softly in a matter-of-fact monotone, as if dictating a shopping list. "Then I will ask him to purify my soul so I am fit to see him, and I will ask to see my mujahedin brothers who are already with him." He pauses to run the list through his mind again, then resumes: "The most important thing is that he should let me kill many Americans."

At 20, Marwan is already a battle-hardened insurgent, a jihadi foot soldier in Abu Mousab al-Zarqawi's terrorist group, al-Qaeda in Iraq. Like the bulk of insurgents, he is a Sunni Muslim from the former ruling minority community. In his hometown, Fallujah, he is known for his ferociousness in battle and deep religiosity. Marwan asked his commander to consider him for a suicide mission last fall but had to wait until the beginning of April for his name to be put on the list of volunteers. "When he finally agreed," Marwan recalls, "it was the happiest day of my life." There are, he says, scores of names on that list, and it can be months before a volunteer is assigned an operation. But at the current high rate of attacks, Marwan hopes he will be called up soon. "I can't wait," he says, rubbing his thumbs with his fingers in nervous energy. "I am ready to die now."

Among the embittered population of Iraq, it's not hard to find young men who talk the terrorist talk, boasting of their willingness to serve as human bombs. It's hard to judge the speakers' sincerity. But the latest surge of suicide operations proves there is no scarcity of volunteers to become the most lethal weapon Iraq's insurgents have. Since May 1, Iraq has witnessed at least 129 suicide attacks, accounting for several of the estimated 150 U.S. fatalities during this period, including as many as six soldiers killed in an attack of their convoy near Fallujah last week. Most of the 1,200 Iraqis killed by insurgents since May 1 have died in suicide bombings. And yet, despite the frequency and deadliness of their attacks, almost nothing is known about individual bombers. Their identities have rarely been revealed and then only posthumously, on jihadist websites or carefully edited videotapes aimed at promoting the insurgent cause and attracting fresh recruits. Among the few who have been named, most are foreigners, many from Saudi Arabia.


"He doesn't know when or where he will be ordered to climb into a bomb-laden vehicle or strap on an explosives-filled vest but says he is eager for the moment to come."

"First I will ask Allah to bless my mission with a high rate of casualties among the Americans," he says, speaking softly in a matter-of-fact monotone, as if dictating a shopping "

Like them, Marwan works Koranic allusions into his speech. He has also embraced the jihadist worldview of one global Islamic state where there is, in Marwan's words, "no alcohol, no music and no Western influences." He concedes that he has not thought deeply about what life might be like in such a state; after all, he doesn't expect to live long enough to experience it. Besides, he says, he fights first for Islam, second to become a "martyr" and win acceptance into heaven, and only third for control of his country. "The first step is to remove the Americans from Iraq," he says. "After we have achieved that, we can work out the other details."


doom......

I "do you actually think that *terrorists* just want to kill you because you are *american*"


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4349250 - 06/29/05 03:16 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It didn't start because they arbitrarily chose to hate Americans. Notice, they had solid reasons to hate America, and now are taking that out on the American soldiers.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Ravus]
    #4349731 - 06/29/05 09:04 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ravus writes:

Quote:

It didn't start because they arbitrarily chose to hate Americans. Notice, they had solid reasons to hate America...




Sure. Music, alcohol, and Western influence, to name just three. To that short list he could have added the American reverence of rule of the people (democracy) rather than Allah, the whorishness and brazenness of American women, the fact that American clerics marry gays rather than stone them...



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4349738 - 06/29/05 09:10 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Sure. Music, alcohol, and Western influence, to name just three. To that short list he could have added the American reverence of rule of the people (democracy) rather than Allah, the whorishness and brazenness of American women, the fact that American clerics marry gays rather than stone them...

Phred




Funny how you completely fail to mention America's decades-long history of fighting proxy wars or generally meddling about in the affairs of Middle Eastern nations.

I'm not saying that the things you mentioned are not some of the reasons the terrorists are using...but certainly you realize they aren't the only reasons.

Reality is a bit more complicated than "they hate our freedom". :rolleyes:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4349788 - 06/29/05 09:46 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The 'splodeydope profiled in the article didn't mention any of that stuff, did he? Kinda gives you an idea the hierarchy of grievances the most dangerous members of the Religion of Peace adhere to, doesn't it?



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4349929 - 06/29/05 11:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It also said he was only 20 years old, meaning he wasn't even alive for a lot of the meddling that the US has done in the area. He grew up in the results of said meddling.

Don't confuse a symptom with a cause.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4350253 - 06/29/05 01:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You believe the madrassas teach what they do as a result of US meddling? Okay then.



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4350416 - 06/29/05 01:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think anything is the result of a single, easily-definable event.

The current situation in the Mid East is the result of a multitude of forces and events, and cannot be boiled down to something simple like "the madrassas" or "they hate our freedom".

Anything less is an over-simplified view of reality.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4350448 - 06/29/05 02:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not talking about "the current situation in the Middle East". I'm talking about why Islamofascist 'splodeydopes want to kill Americans. The young feller profiled in the article did a pretty succinct job explaining why he wanted to. He's repeating the RoP party line pretty much word for word.


Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4350499 - 06/29/05 02:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Nit-picking :rolleyes:

When you stop pointing to the symptom while screaming "DISEASE!", I think we can have a productive discussion about why these "Islamofascist 'splodeydopes" exist and want to kill Americans. Until then, I can't see a point.


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4350578 - 06/29/05 02:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I've told you why they exist. They exist because the Religion of Peace is not a "gets-along-well-with-the-other-kids" religion. It never has been and as long as the words of Mohammed (peace be upon him) form the basis for islam it never will be.

These are the same people who are still seething over the loss of al Andaluz (Spain) more than half a millenium ago -- the same people who were all for beheading Jews centuries before there was an entity known as Israel and even before there was an entity known as the United States of America which would eventually end up supporting Israel.

They don't like the idea of people governing themselves -- that's Allah's job. They don't like the idea of women... well... of women doing anything at all, really. They sure don't like the idea of guys doing homo stuff. Or playing music. Or shaving their faces. Or drinking alcohol.

Plenty of religions have some fairly bizarre doctrines; Islam is not alone in that. But there's not a whole lot of others out there who get so pissed off at things they don't like that they exhort their young to go out there and blow up people standing in lines at bus stops (Muslim people at that) along with themselves. That's pretty much a RoP patented schtick.

Do you honestly believe that if the US were to cease all aid to Israel tomorrow, take every last soldier out of Turkey and Iraq and Afghanistan next week, the 'splodeydopes would quit?

As if.



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4350667 - 06/29/05 03:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Do you honestly believe that if the US were to cease all aid to Israel tomorrow, take every last soldier out of Turkey and Iraq and Afghanistan next week, the 'splodeydopes would quit?

No, don't be silly.

Simple withdrawl is proably not enough to atone for decades of mistreatment.

As far as Islam goes....you are aware that the version of Islam being used/taught by the terrorists was a fringe version until events in the last 50 years pushed it to the forefront, aren't you?

Or are you suggesting that everyone who follows Islam is a "terrorist splodeydope"?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4351073 - 06/29/05 04:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

trendal writes:

Quote:

Simple withdrawl is proably not enough to atone for decades of mistreatment.




You must have meant to type, " for 'decades' of perceived mistreatment," surely, since the US has never actually mistreated any Muslim country and certainly hasn't mistreated any individual Muslims.

But let me pursue this a bit further -- are you saying that the 'splodeydopes and their masters are still owed a few free shots at the US for supposed past "injustices"? How many free shots? What do you feel should be the time limit on this "free shot season"?

Quote:

As far as Islam goes....you are aware that the version of Islam being used/taught by the terrorists was a fringe version until events in the last 50 years pushed it to the forefront, aren't you?




If by that do you mean am I aware there were less widespread atrocities being committed by Muslims worldwide before Arafat taught them how to hijack airliners and blow themselves up, yes I am aware of that. Are you aware that technology and the way things are done in the world has changed a lot in the last half century? No jet airliners fifty years ago, for example. Not much Semtex either.

But there has never been a shortage of Muslims willing to behead infidels. The fact that they have become more efficient at taking out mass quantities of infidels simultaneously doesn't alter that.

Quote:

Or are you suggesting that everyone who follows Islam is a "terrorist splodeydope"?




Everyone? Nope.



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4351159 - 06/29/05 05:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You must have meant to type, " for 'decades' of perceived mistreatment," surely, since the US has never actually mistreated any Muslim country and certainly hasn't mistreated any individual Muslims.

Do you deny that, for example, the CIA supplied funds, training, and logistical support to certain Afghan "rebels" during the Soviet occupation of that country?

But let me pursue this a bit further -- are you saying that the 'splodeydopes and their masters are still owed a few free shots at the US for supposed past "injustices"? How many free shots? What do you feel should be the time limit on this "free shot season"?

No, actually, I wasn't saying that at all. Where do you get these ideas from?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4351265 - 06/29/05 05:34 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You must have meant to type, " for 'decades' of perceived mistreatment," surely, since the US has never actually mistreated any Muslim country and certainly hasn't mistreated any individual Muslims.




hahahaha  :lol: :lol: :lol:

oh nooooo we certainly never mistreated them as we played power games with their nations arming militia to drag them into our wars. Oh, wait lemme call bush up to give me some "proof" to back this up.  :lol:


--------------------
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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4351659 - 06/29/05 07:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

trendal writes:

Quote:

Do you deny that, for example, the CIA supplied funds, training, and logistical support to certain Afghan "rebels" during the Soviet occupation of that country?




Bwahahahaha!

I can't believe you are using that as an example of the US somehow transgressing against Muslims! I mean, seriously, why don't you re-read that sentence?

Try to grasp these essential points:

-- Afghanistan is (and of course was at the time of the Soviet invasion) a Muslim nation.

-- It was invaded by the most non-Muslim people on the face of the earth; the Godless Commies. At least most Muslims will grudgingly make allowances (or are supposed to do so according to the teachings of Mohammed -- peace be upon him) for those to whom they refer to as "people of the Book" -- i.e. Jews and Christians. They make no such allowances for atheists.

-- the CIA (along with over a dozen other countries) assisted the Muslim Afghanis in kicking out the Godless invaders. It would of course be too much to expect actual gratitude for this assistance, but one would be reasonable in hoping for at least an absence of hostility.

Quote:

No, actually, I wasn't saying that at all. Where do you get these ideas from?




From statements like this:

Quote:

Simple withdrawl is proably not enough to atone for decades of mistreatment.




I asked you if you seriously thought they'd quit if the US were to stop doing tomorrow whatever it is you think the US has been doing to piss them off (i.e. supporting Israel, buying oil from Muslim kleptocracies, etc.). You then chastised me for making a silly suggestion. But you seem to have somehow convinced yourself that it isn't what we (by "we" I refer to the West in general) are that stirs them into a murderous rage, but what we do to them. Yet according to you if we were to stop what we do to them (whatever that may be) that still isn't enough -- there must be atonement as well -- presumely more bombings and beheadings and stuff.

If that isn't what you meant by "atone", what was?



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4351670 - 06/29/05 07:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Sycronica writes:

Quote:

oh nooooo we certainly never mistreated them as we played power games with their nations arming militia to drag them into our wars.




What on earth are you babbling on about now? Which Muslim militia was armed and dragged into a US war?

I'm going to need some clarification on this one.


Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4351758 - 06/29/05 07:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

rightly said Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4351995 - 06/29/05 08:36 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The CIA began funding the Afghan gorillas before the Soviets moved in to take over, which may have been the CIA's intention all along - to lure the Russians in to a country where they were almost guaranteed a long, bloody battle that would end in their loss (just like the US had experienced a decade earlier in Nam).

In short, two major superpowers used a 3rd world country to fight a proxy war with eachother, so that they wouldn't have to risk a REAL war which could go nuclear.

If that isn't what you meant by "atone", what was?

Learn to put yourself in the shoes of another. It comes in handy.

I'm sure the terrorists (some of them, and certainly the ones like OBL who started most of this shit) see their actions as payback for previous wrongs done to them by the USA as well as ongoing wrongs (such as keeping bases in SA...which I know is a stupid reason to perform an act of terrorism, but still a reason).


If I bend down and set some dry grass on fire with my lighter...does the fire go out as soon as I take the lighter away?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4352474 - 06/29/05 10:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

trendal writes:

Quote:

The CIA began funding the Afghan gorillas before the Soviets moved in to take over...




Source, please.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this allegation is true, your point would be that if the CIA hadn't meddled, the Soviets wouldn't have invaded, therefore the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan was the fault of the CIA?

Quote:

I'm sure the terrorists (some of them, and certainly the ones like OBL who started most of this shit) see their actions as payback for previous wrongs done to them by the USA as well as ongoing wrongs (such as keeping bases in SA...which I know is a stupid reason to perform an act of terrorism, but still a reason).




I realize you see it that way, hence my questions:

How many more free shots do they get? What do you feel should be the time limit on this "free shot season"?


Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4353016 - 06/29/05 11:52 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

How many more free shots do they get? What do you feel should be the time limit on this "free shot season"?

Have we gone off the lunatic fringe, here?

I think you know damn well that I didn't say they "should" get any "free shots", but that they would not be satiated by a simple withdrawal of troops. It would not end the bloodshed.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4353429 - 06/30/05 01:06 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The "proof" is classified. And as things get unclassified you start to see what happens behind the sceens that doesn't make the nightly news.

It is widespread knowlege that our govt funds and arms militia groups. We funded the hell out of bin laden in afganistan, sadam against iran, funny how they end up bad guys now. What about all the militia arming we have done in south america? Oh wait, they become governments after we arm them so then they aren't militia anymore, can't forget technicalities.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4354858 - 06/30/05 12:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

trendal writes:

Quote:

I think you know damn well that I didn't say they "should" get any "free shots", but that they would not be satiated by a simple withdrawal of troops. It would not end the bloodshed.




Then what will end the bloodshed? You have finally come right out and explicitly stated (I've been leading you to this conclusion for how many posts now?) what every thinking person already knows -- that even if we were to abandon Israel and pull all US troops out of every Muslim country tomorrow, the 'splodeydopes will go on 'sploding.

They will do so because their goal is not the withdrawal of US troops, their goal is world domination of their version of Islam. Thus, the Global War on Terrorists.

If ceasing support of Israel won't stop them, why cease supporting Israel? If withdrawing troops won't stop them, why withdraw troops? i don't know about you, but I'd much rather have them attempting to blow up well-armed troops in Iraq than attempting to blow up delicatessens in Manhattan.


Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4354866 - 06/30/05 12:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Sycronica writes:

Quote:

We funded the hell out of bin laden in afganistan, sadam against iran...




Incorrect. The US didn't "fund the hell out of" Saddam against Iran, although intelligence useful to Hussein's efforts was shared by the US.

Quote:

... funny how they end up bad guys now.




When rogue international actors turn bad, they should of course be neutralized. And it isn't Pacifists who'll do the neutralizing.


Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4354867 - 06/30/05 12:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You must have meant to type, " for 'decades' of perceived mistreatment," surely, since the US has never actually mistreated any Muslim country and certainly hasn't mistreated any individual Muslims.



How about the Eisenhower approved Coup that overthrew the Democratically elected government in Iran and replaced it with the ruthless (but pro-U.S!) Shah of Iran?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4354871 - 06/30/05 12:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

trendal writes:

Quote:

If I bend down and set some dry grass on fire with my lighter...does the fire go out as soon as I take the lighter away?




If I end up setting a grassfire, I stomp it out.



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4354894 - 06/30/05 12:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
They exist because the Religion of Peace is not a gets-along-well-with-the-other-kids" religion. It never has been and as long as the words of Mohammed (peace be upon him) form the basis for islam it never will be.





Actually, one of the original tenets of Islam during the years after it was created by Mohammed was one of tolerance towards Jews and Christians. Until the Crusades, all Christians and Jews were allowed to practice their religions freely, even if they lived in the Muslim Empire. The Muslims believed that all 3 religions (and in some cases Zoroastrianism) were religions of "the book". They all believed in the same God, yet chose different ways to worship that God. This ideal was shot to shit by the beginning of the Crusades, and has been nonexistent ever since.

Not to nitpick, but I figured that was somewhat important.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4354926 - 06/30/05 12:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ancalagon writes:

Quote:

How about the Eisenhower approved Coup that overthrew the Democratically elected government in Iran...




Approving of an action is not the same as perpetrating it. Are you saying the US government overthrew the Democratically elected government in Iran? If so, do you have a list of specific actions taken by the US government which led to that overthrow?



Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4354997 - 06/30/05 01:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Approving of an action is not the same as perpetrating it.



Did you expect Dwight D. Eisenhower himself, in all his glory, to march over to Iran, challenge the democratically elected Prime Minister to a sword fight, and then install his puppet?

Here's a quote from Madeleine Albright:
Quote:

In 1953, the United States played a significant role in orchestrating the overthrow of Iran?s popular prime minister, Mohammed Mossadegh. The Eisenhower administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons, but the coup was clearly a setback for Iran?s political development and it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs. Moreover, during the next quarter century, the United States and the West gave sustained backing to the Shah?s regime. Although it did much to develop the country economically, the Shah?s government also brutally repressed political dissent. As President Clinton has said, the United States must bear its fair share of responsibility for the problems that have arisen in U.S.-Iranian relations.




I also suggest reading this article.

Enjoy.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4355150 - 06/30/05 01:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You have finally come right out and explicitly stated (I've been leading you to this conclusion for how many posts now?) what every thinking person already knows -- that even if we were to abandon Israel and pull all US troops out of every Muslim country tomorrow, the 'splodeydopes will go on 'sploding.

What do you mean "finally"? I said right from the start that simple withdrawal would not end the violence. :smirk:

They will do so because their goal is not the withdrawal of US troops

I never said it was :wink:


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: trendal]
    #4355272 - 06/30/05 02:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If I end up setting a grassfire, I stomp it out.




EXACTLY! And as you stomp out the grass (people in power) you stomp on the innocents too. And PISS THEM OFF. Which is WHY 9/11 happened. We started a grassfire that spread, now we come to put it out and made an even bigger fire.


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4355565 - 06/30/05 03:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, I read the article. Not surprisingly, the author of the article fails to do what I had asked you to do -- provide a list of specific actions taken by the US government which led to that overthrow.

The most specific he gets is the following:

Quote:

Capitalizing on the oil-nationalization showdown between Iran and Great Britain, which had thrown Iran into chaos and crisis, Kermit Roosevelt skillfully used a combination of bribery of Iranian military officials and CIA-engendered street protests to pull off the coup.




Just how the CIA managed to persuade Iranians to protest in the streets is left unsaid -- perhaps they paid them to? As it turns out, bribing Iranian military officials (to do what?) and "engendering" street protests failed rather miserably, as the author notes:

Quote:

The first stage of the coup, however, was unsuccessful, and the shah, who had partnered with the CIA to oust Mossadegh from office, fled Tehran in fear of his life.




Well... shucks. But hey... if at first you don't succeed, try, try again --

Quote:

However, in the second stage of the coup a few days later, the CIA achieved its goal, enabling the shah to return to Iran in triumph ...




And just what was the "second stage of the coup", pray tell? Bribing different military officials (to do what?)? Engendering street protests on different streets? The author doesn't say. Nor has any other author I've come across so far, although I will admit I haven't yet had time to read every commentary on the coup ever written.

Perhaps you could provide a link to someone who is a bit more specific.




Phred


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4356645 - 06/30/05 08:43 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Two heavyweights bumpin heads here :popcorn:


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Re: What is more dangerous to America? Terrorists or Republicans? [Re: Phred]
    #4359681 - 07/01/05 03:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Let's move one step at a time.

Your claim:
Quote:

You must have meant to type, " for 'decades' of perceived mistreatment," surely, since the US has never actually mistreated any Muslim country and certainly hasn't mistreated any individual Muslims.




Now it's common knowledge that the CIA facilitated, fomented, aided, what have you, a coup against the democratically elected, and very popular, democratically elected regime in Iran and replaced it with an absolutely brutal and repressive tyrant. What there do you take issue with? I notice you didn't bother addressing Madeleine Albright's quote admitting as much. Perhaps you'd like to retract your statement while you can still save some face? I'd suggest being careful of absolutes in the future.

From The 50th Anniversary of the 1953 Coup in Iran
    ...At this juncture, in

    order to further its interests in the region the US seized the opportunity

    to move in. The US administration under President Eisenhower and its CIA

    chief Allen W. Dulles decided with the help of the CIA network of local

    agents embedded in Iran since before WWII, to overthrow the democratically

    elected government of Prime Minister Mosaddegh. The idea was also to push

    the larger reformist/nationalist movement out of the political scene.

    Kermit Roosevelt, the chief of the Near East Desk of the CIA, himself moved

    to the US embassy in Tehran to direct the operations AJAX from the field.

    The first coup attempt on August 16 failed, and the Shah fled the country.

    People poured into the streets to celebrate the survival of their democracy.

    But the coup engineers were not to give up easily. The next day, Gerald

    Towne of the CIA station in Tehran and George Carroll, a CIA paramilitary

    specialist and author of the military component of the plan, were sent by

    Roosevelt to recruit army garrisons outside Tehran to join the rogue

    officers of the plot. The second attempt on August 19th succeeded in

    bringing down the government of Prime Minister Mosaddegh. The Shah was

    reinstalled to power.

    This was the first time the US overthrew a democratic foreign government. It

    set a precedent for future covert actions to come. After the coup, with the

    support of the US, the Shah consolidated his dictatorial client-regime.

    While the revolution of 1979 released all sorts of aspirations for democracy

    and popular participation, the 25 years of Shah-US co-partnership had caused

    the civil society to suffer and political institutions gradually became

    retarded. As one democracy activist in Iran put it, the United States "has

    consistently failed to understand the deep impact of its suffocation of

    Iranian democracy. The revolution of 1979 was nothing but a delayed reaction

    to the coup of 1953."

    In June of 2000, one significant CIA history report ? the Donald Wilber

    report ? was published by the New York Times. It had been leaked by an

    individual from the CIA. As the main architect of the coup plan, Donald

    Wilber had authored the report some months after the operation. It reveals

    that AJAX was a much more detailed plan of destabilization that ultimately

    ended with the coup. From the report we learn that as part of the pre-coup

    psychological operations, the newspapers and MPs on the payroll of the CIA

    had started a disinformation campaign against Mosaddegh. Also mobs of thugs

    were hired to create social disorder
    ...
I'm interested to see where you're going with your clamoring for specifics (many of which are still classified) -- it is a FACT that the the United States facilitated the overthrow of this government; this isn't a barking moonbat claim, this is a matter of historical record.

To sum it up, here's what this argument comes down to:

a) Your claim is that the United States has never mistreated a Muslim Country
b) The United States did (not-debateable) help in replacing a very popular democratically elected regime in Iran with a brutal dictator that terrorized his people.
c) Your only defense can be that B does not constitute mistreatment. If that is your claim I'll let the denizens of this board pass judgement on whose off their rocker here.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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