Home | Community | Message Board



Please support our sponsors.

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Ethnobotanical Garden

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop:   Original Seeds Store Buy CBD, Cannabis Seeds, Compare CBD   Amazon Chlorella, pH Test Strips, Salvia, Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Offlineytse
pilzero
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 151
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards
    #4190413 - 05/18/05 12:12 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)


There are a lot discussions taking place lately about plant growth regulators!
I would like to discuss about how safe are these substances.
I have to admit that I don?t know a lot of things and that I haven?t made my mind yet.
So it would be good to listen various opinions.


As for the Plants:

It is well known that if you boost your plants with a lot of fertilizer (more than normal) , the plants grows a lot but it does not have a lot of time to adapt to the conditions and defense itself good against pests, diseases and bad weather. It does not grow uniformly as well Z.b. roots or flowers may be undeveloped against leaves etc (depending on the proportion of the fertilizer)
Is there a chance that growth regulators ( Phytormones for example) create this kind of problems?

One more point. Mass growth is regulated from hormones in humans as well. Everybody knows that if you start playing with them (if you don?t have a reason) you will end in a quite bad condition on the long run. Take testosterone as an example.
Something similar could happen on plants. Why not?
Real life is more complex and multiparameter than our models. It may have side effects that you can imagine right now!

As for humans:

Generalizing the above. We don?t know what effects have these substances on human health.
One argument is that these substances occur naturally to plants. BUT:
The dose makes the poison. I may start taking a ?natural human hormone? in great concentration and start growing boobs.


My opinion is that:
There should be provided the best conditions possible to the plants (life forms) and only in very special conditions should someone resort to the big stuff!


Looking forward to hearing arguments?


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


κατσίκα


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiloman
member
Male
Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 1,116
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards [Re: ytse]
    #4190595 - 05/18/05 01:09 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

"As for the Plants:

It is well known that if you boost your plants with a lot of fertilizer (more than normal) , the plants grows a lot but it does not have a lot of time to adapt to the conditions and defense itself good against pests, diseases and bad weather. It does not grow uniformly as well Z.b. roots or flowers may be undeveloped against leaves etc (depending on the proportion of the fertilizer)
Is there a chance that growth regulators ( Phytormones for example) create this kind of problems?"

If used in moderation and following the instructions no. Some phytohormonal supplements also contain various betaines which regulate shock responce in plants.If you use a well balance supplement and adhere to the instructions there are benefits to be reaped in the long run like a healthier root system,more chloroplasts in the plants,increase alkaloid levels etc etc.

"One more point. Mass growth is regulated from hormones in humans as well. Everybody knows that if you start playing with them (if you don?t have a reason) you will end in a quite bad condition on the long run. Take testosterone as an example.
Something similar could happen on plants. Why not?
Real life is more complex and multiparameter than our models. It may have side effects that you can imagine right now! "

There are distinct differences between human physiology and plant physiology.As a general rule plants are more tolerant to many factors.

"As for humans:

Generalizing the above. We don?t know what effects have these substances on human health.
One argument is that these substances occur naturally to plants. BUT:
The dose makes the poison. I may start taking a ?natural human hormone? in great concentration and start growing boobs.
"

Yup ,i agree with that.Hence the caution and the logic. In my opinion you can supplement your plants with hormones at logical levels (keep in mind that you are already exposed to many many many many hormones,herbicides,insecticides etc ,you dont need more really) and notice no ill effects on your plants or on you. As an extra safety measure you can flush out the plants for 2-3 weeks before any collecting.

Personally i dont think they are dangerous if one applies phytohormones in a logical manner (ok situation may change if you gulp down 2 bottles of Maxicrop!!!!). Sometimes we even drink them or contain them to no harm: An auxin,indoloacetic acid is in our urine,and it is the major breakdown metabolite of Serotonine! Cytokinins exist in big quantities in Coconut milk ,i used to be an avid coconut miilk drinker and iu guess other people do too.

My take: Dont be afraid of them but dont go out of measure. Apply them in your watering and spraying regiment and see how it goes.Stop for a bit and evaluate. Before collecting you can flush the ground with some water if you are afraid of them.After collecting you can wash the leaves ,seeds/whatever that came in contact.


The term "Phytohormones" sounds suspicious enough,but you shouldnt be afraid of them.Keep in mind that i as well want my wellbeing and healthy plants and i have researched every product i use extensively before i use it so i can have my head clear of any trouble and "what if's" .I preffer organic products ,with substances already present in nature for the simple reason that they can usually be eliminated more easily,maybe even attacked more easily by enzymes compared to their synthetic analogues.Before choosing what is best for your plants google the compounds! Many of your worries will be dispelled and maybe you will find some very usefull uses for them.Keep in mind that commercial growers of vegetables overdo it with them,you dont have to do the same!

Nevertheless you have made some very serious points that i would like to see input from other members of this community as well! Thats a very good topic Ytse,and a very interesting one!!!!


Edited by Psiloman (05/18/05 01:11 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,029
Re: Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards [Re: ytse]
    #4190615 - 05/18/05 01:14 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

with that said you need to know how to use them right. Blindly dumping fetelizer and hormones on your plants can cause such things. During growth stages of plant development you want the N P K to be high in the (n)itrogen-12,
(p)hosphorus any wear from 1 to 6,
(k) potassium should be around 6.

Nitrogen is needed do to its a important part of amino acids.
Phosphorus is essential to a plant cuz it is needed to maintain the plants resperation
Potassium function in a plant regulating nutrient and water up take.

With agressive plants and using hormones the amount of nutrients a plant needs to survive and grow increases.

During summer moths i feed a dilute mixture every watering.

The substances we feed the plants are found naturaly in the soil and occure in the plants and are needed, for bigger yields. In the wild life aint easy.

For cacti i use a NPK of 1-7-6


With the use of hormones you have to understand at what stages of the plants cycle which nutrients are needed most. When it comes to fruiting and producing flowers there is no need for vegetative growth so you switch from 12-6-6 to a 0-10-10. At this time the use of hormones ar not needed. The plant has gotten large and healthy and is well off on its own.


--------------------




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiloman
member
Male
Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 1,116
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #4190654 - 05/18/05 01:25 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

By the way here is a what i would call sane treatment regiment and its results:
http://rbt.ots.ac.cr/revistas/44-3y451/kadiri.htm

It has been tried on two plants whose names i dont know and also to Datura ,which showed an increase in metabolism as well as alkaloid levels

Quote:


Abstract: The effects of single and combined growth regulator treatments of indole-3-acetic acid (IAA), gibberellic acid (GA3) and coconut milk on plant height, yield, chlorophyll and vitamin contents of Abelmoschus esculetus L. and Solanum gilo L. were investigated. The single growth regulator treatments consisted of 50mg/L, 100mg/L of IAA and GA3 and 10%, 15% of coconut milk. In case of combined growth regulator treatments, the treatments were 100mg/L IAA + 100mg/L GA3,100mg/L IAA + 15% coconut milk and 100mg/L GA3 + 15% coconut milk. Control vegetable plants were sprayed with water.

Single treatments of 100mg/L IAA,100mg/L GA3. 10% and 15% coconut milk resulted in significantly increased plant height, chlorophyll contents and yield of A. esculentus, H. sabdariffa and S. gilo while only conbined treatments of 100mg/L IAA + 10% coconut milk and 100mg/L GA3 + 15% coconut milk had such an effect on A. esculentus and S.gilo but not on H. sabdariffa. Moreover, singletreatments of 100mg/L GA3 and 15% coconut milk caused significantly higher vitamins A, B6 and C contents of treated plants whereas the combined treatments produced such an effect on only vitamin C contents of treated plants. Growth regulator treatments of 100mg/L GA3 and 15% coconut milk were consistently the best out of the entire growth regulator treatments tried with the treated plants having the greatest plant height, yield, chlorophyll and vitamin C contents.



Key words: Nigerian vegetables, plant growth regulators, plant growth, chlorophyll and vitamin contents.



Plant growth regulators are known to influence growth and development at very low concentrations but inhibit plant growth and development at high concentrations (Jules et al. 1981).

Plant physiological processes are under the control of growth regulators. Examples of these are plant rooting and propagation, dormancy initiation and breaking, promotion of flowering, setting of fruit fall, regulation of plants' chemical composition and mineral uptake from soil and conferment of resistance on plants against pests and harsh environmental factors (Nickell 1978).

Recently, researches have shown the stimulatory effects of growth regulators in the vegetative growth and yield of vegetables. Gibberellic acid has been used to stimulate stem and petiole extension in rhubarb, celery and water cress (Thomas 1976). Treatment of radish and onion seeds with auxin or a mixture of gibberellic acid (GA3) and kinetin have been found to increase the germination of the seeds (Thomas 1976). Monthly foliar spraying of geranium (Pelergonium graveolens) resulted in increased plant height and herb production (Mohammed et al. 1983). Spraying of datura plant (Dature innoxin) planted in different salinity concentrations with chlormequat, ethephon or kinetin was found to enhance plant growth alkaloidal and soluble sugar contents of leave and reduce the harmful effect of salinity on the plant (Abdel-Rahman & Abdel-Asiz 1983). Application of gibberellic acid, 4-chloroindole and 6-benzyl aminopurine on to the standard petal and calyx of Vicia faba var. major before or after tripping was found to significantly enhance pod set (Rylott and Smith 1990). Likewise, spraying of Vicia faba cv. Troy reproductive structure with indole-3-acetic acid, gibberellic acid or 6-benzylaminopurine resulted in increased pod number (Clifford et al. 1992).

In Nigeria, spraying of vegetables with growth regulators to enhance their vegetative growth and yield is currently not being practiced. This is due to lack of information on the optimum concentrations of growth regulators that could be used to enhance vegetables' growth and yield. The present study aims at bridging up such an information gap with respect to three tropical vegetables; namely, Abelmoschus esculentus (Okra), Hibiscus sabdariffa (sorrel) and Solanum gilo (egg plant). Abelmoschus esculentus and H. sabdariffa are cultivated for their mucilaginous pods, young leaves and shoots which are eaten as cooked vegetables in soups and H. sabdariffa Calyx that is used in preparing a refreshing beverage (Tridall 1983, Ughorogho & Shofoyeke 1983). Solanum gilo is cultivated for its fruits and leaves which are eaten raw as vegetables and for the seasoning of other foods (Yoyock et al. 1988).



MATERIALS AND METHODS



Planting of seeds: Seeds of A. esculentus, H. sabdariffa and S. gilo were sown on seperate prepared beds at 4 seeds per hole. There were seven beds of 2 x 2m each per vegetable for the single hormonal treatments and 4 beds of 2 x 2m each per vegetable for the combined treatments with a distance of 0.5m in between beds. the number of beds were replicated thrice and weeding was carried out regularly. During the study period, the land area of the prepared beds had a mean temperature of 30 ? 3?c, relative humidity of 58 ? 10% and average day length of 12.5 ? 0.5h.



Growth regulator treatments: The growth regulator employed in the experiment were indole-3-acetic acid (IAA), gibberellic acid (GA3) and coconut milk. Two types of growth regulator treatments were given to the vegetables. These were single and combined growth regulator treatments. The single growth regulator treatments were IAA and GA3 (50mg/L and 100mg/L) and coconut milk (10% and 15%) while the combined growth regulator treatments were based on the best results obtained from promotional effect of single growth regulator treatments on the vegetables. For the three vegetable types, the combined growth regulator treatments given were: 100mg/L IAA + 100mg/L GA3, 100mg/L IAA + 15% coconut milk and 100mg/L GA3 + 15% coconut milk. For both the single and combined growth regulator treatments, 30ml of the various concentrations were applied on the planted vegetables by foliar spraying of 4 doses at 2 week-intervals commencing from 2 weeks after sowing. The control vegetable plants were sprayed foliarly with 30ml water also applied in 4 doses at 2 week-intervals starting from 2 weeks after sowing.



Effects of growth regulator treatments on plant height,



Chlorophyll content and yield: Sampling of the treated vegetables and controls was carried out at 9 weeks after sowing. Plant heights were measured using a metre rule. Fresh weights of the fruits produced by the treated and control plants of A. esculentus and S. gilo were recorded in 3 replicates and the averages taken. Leaves of treated and control plants of H. sabdariffa were harvested and the chlorophyll extracted using 80% acetone. The chlorophyll contents were determined by following the method of witham et al. (1971).



Effects of growth regulator treatments on vitamin contents:

Fruits of treated vegetables and controls were harvested at 9 weeks after sowing, dried in an oven at 80?C for 48h, ground into powders and the powders used for vitamins content determination. Vitamin A was analysed using the method of Beols and Troet (1959) by boiling 1g powder sample with a mixture of 30ml ethanol and 3ml 85%KOH for 30mins. Vitamin B6 analysis was carried out according to the method of Heochberg, Melnic and Oser (1944) in 1g powdered samples being hydrolysed with 4N HCL in a boiling-water bath for 1h. The colouring dye was 2,6-dichloroquinoquinoechloroimide reagent which complexes with pyridoxine at pH 5.7 to form reddish brown chromophore that absorbs at 620nm. The determinantion of vitamin C was carried out using the method described by Lambert and Muir (1983) by 500mg of each powdered sample being completely homogenised in 10ml of 4%HCL in a blender. The colouring dye was 2,6-dichloroindophenol which on titration forms a pink colour with Vitamin C.



RESULTS AND DISCUSSIONS



Significant increases in plant height and yield were observed in A. esculentus and S. gilo given single treatments of 100mg/L IAA, 100mg/L GA3, coconut milk and combined treatments of 100mg/L IAA + 15% coconut milk and 100mg/L GA3 + 15% coconut milk (Tables 1 and 2). Results of significantly increased plant height and chlorophyll content were also obtained for H. sabdariffa given single treatment of 100mg/L IAA, gibberellic acid anc coconut milk (Table 1). Similar results of plant height stimulation were observed by Currah & Thomas (1979) upon application of 100mg/L GA3 on carrot plant. Spraying of kinetin on Datura innoxoa plant at 1mg/L, 5mg/L and 10mg/L was found to cause incresed vegetative growth (Abdel-Rahman & Abdel-Aziz, 1983). Similarly, GA3 spraying was found to stimulate production of flowers in lettuce (Metzger 1988). Biddington & Dearman (1987) also observed that GA3 application increased the growth of bean and leaf length of lettuce. The auxin, naphthoacetic acid and the cytokinin, 6-benzyl-amino-purine when sprayed onto the open flowers Solanum melogena either singly or in combination were likewise observed to increse the number of fruit set as well as the total weights of the fruits (Olympios 1976). Spraying of kinetin on Chlorella vulgaris 157 was found to increase chlorophylls a and b contents (Atanasiu et al 1983). Singh et al (1984) likewise obtained significant increase in the number of grains per panicle, % filled spikelets and yields of rice sprayed at anthesis with kinetin and IAA. Stuart and Cathey (1961) explained that increases in plant height by growth requlator treatments are due to the fact that they enhance stem elongation of plants.

Plants of A. esculentus and H. sabdariffa treated with 100mg/L GA3 and 15% coconut milk had significantly higher vitamins A, B6 and C contents than the control plants (Table 3). Similar result of increased total soluble sugar content in leaves of Datura innoxia treated with varied concentrations of chlormequat and ethephon was observed by Abdel-Rahman & Abdel-Aziz (1983). Dybing & Lay (1982) found that application of growth regulators on plants improves the plants' quality in terms of oil, latex, sucrose and protein contents, fruit colour and fatty acid composition.

The combined growth regulator treatments of the vegetables resulted in significant increases in only the vitamin C contents of the vegetables (Table 4). Of all the growth regulator treatments applied on A. esculentus. H. sabdariffa and S. gilo. 100mg/L GA3 and 15% coconut milk treatments consistently produced plants with the greatest plant height, yield, chlorophyll and vitamins content (Tables 1,2,3 and 4). The possible reasons for this could be that GA3 induces cell elongation and coconut milk is a crude source of cytokinin and therefore a cell division promoter. This is probably the first time that coconut milk is being reported to have a growth promotion effect when sprayed on plants. The significance of the present study is that single treatments of 100mg/L GA3 and 15% coconut milk could be used to spray A. esculentus, H. sabdariffa and S. gilo in order to enhance their vegetative growth, vitamins content and yields.



TABLE 1



Mean plant height (cm/plant), chlorophyll contents (mg/g fresh leaf) and yields (g fresh fruit/plant) of A. esculentus, H. sabdariffa and S. gilo given single treatments of various concentrations of IAA, GA3 and coconut milk at 9 weeks after sowing.



Treatment A. esculentus H. sabdariffa S. gilo

(mg/L) Plant Yield Plant Chlorophyll Plant Yield

height height content height



IAA (50) 15.8cd 14.0d 37.7c 0.61c 13.8d 8.8c

IAA (100) 18.3C 19.9b 38.3c 0.72b 22.6ab 11.4b

GA3 (50) 24.2b 15.5cd 54.2b 0.76b 21.6b 9.8bc

GA3 (100) 45.3a 17.0c 56.2ab 0.93a 24.8a 15.5a

10% Coconut milk 19.9bc 19.2b 55.8ab 0.91a 17.7c 15.4a

15% Coconut milk 23.3b 26.4a 60.9a 1.08a 24.5a 17.3a

Control (water) 12.5d 7.6a 25.9a 0.60c 7.6e 6.4d



Means followed by the same letter(s) within any column are not significantly different at P = 0.01 by Duncan's Multiple Range Test.



TABLE 2

Mean plant height (cm/plant), chlorophyll content (mg/g fresh leaf) and yield fruit/plant) of A. esculentus, H. sabdariffa and S. gilo given combined treatments IAA, GA3 and coconut milk (CM) at 9 weeks after sowing.





Treatment A. esculentus H. sabdariffa S. gilo

(mg/L) Plant Yield Plant Chlorophyll Plant Yield height height content height



IAA (100) + GA3 (100) 20.6b 9.5b 24.2a 0.86b 15.6b 8.9b

IAA (100) + 15% CM 21.1b 15.4a 25.3a 0.91ab 21.0a 10.8b

GA3 (100) + 15% CM 25.7a 16.1a 26.6a 1.02a 23.7a 12.9a

Control (water) 12.2c 7.6c 24.4a 0.60c 8.0c 6.4c



Means followed by the same letter(s) within any column are not significantly different at P = 0.01 by Duncan's Multiple Range Test





TABLE 3

Mean vitamins A, B6 and C contents (mg/100g dry matter) of fruits of A. esculentus, H. sabdariffa and S. gilo given single treatments of IAA, GA3 and coconut milk at 9 weeks after sowing.





Treatment A. esculentus H.sabdariffa S.gilo (mg/L) Vit.A Vit.B6 Vit.C Vit.A Vit.B6 Vit.C Vit.A Vit.B6 Vit.C



IAA (100) 5.2b13.9b 41.8c 21.6b36.1ab52.8b 14.1a 38.8ab37.4c

GA3 (100) 5.8b 18.5a 53.6b 22.4ab37.6a 59.1b 14.7a 39.4a70.0b 15% Coconut milk 8.3a 18.6a 68.8a 25.1a38.9a74.2a 15.4a 43.9a80.5a

Control (water) 5.0b 12.4b 31.5d 15.7c33.7b34.5c 14.0a 34.5b35.8c



Means followed by the same letter (s) within any column are not significantly

different at P = 0.01 by Duncan's Multiple Range Test.





TABLE 4

Mean vitamin A, B6 and C contents (mg/100g dry matter) of fruits of A. esculentus, H. sabdariffa and S. gilo coimbined treatments of IAA, GA3 and coconut milk (cm) at 9 weeks after sowing.



Treatment A. esculentus H. sabdariffa S. gilo

(mg/L) Vit.A Vit.B6 Vit.C vit.A Vit.B6 Vit.C Vit.A Vit.B6 Vit.C



IAA (100) + GA3 (100) 5.0a 12.4c 40.2c 15.8a 33.8a 43.5b 14.0a 34.8b36.9c IAA (100) + 15% CM 5.2a 15.4b 50.4b 16.2a 34.9a 55.0a 14.8a 38.5a60.4b GA3 (100) + 15% CM 5.4a 18.0a 62.5a 16.7a 35.5a 56.3a 15.0a 40.6a75.6a Control (water) 5.0a 12.4c 31.5d 15.7a 33.7a 34.5c 14.0a 34.5b35.8c





Means followed by the same letter(s) within any column are not significantly different at P = 0.01 by Duncan's Multiple Range Test.




If not anything else,it is interesting...I would say that the overall health of the plants was increased after the treatment and not decreased


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiloman
member
Male
Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 1,116
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards [Re: Psiloman]
    #4207548 - 05/22/05 08:12 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Some other thoughts ,to bring this very interesting thread back from the dead...

Generally speaking,augmenting the efficiency of a biological system or customizing it to our needs is an unspoken taboo.Chemical enhancement of athletes is something almost everyone looks down on,genetically modified organisms are (many times by people without proper knowledge) deemed as overly dangerous and i believe than when mechanical augmentation of our bodies becomes available many people would face it with fierce resistance if not anger.

To be true,there are real life ramifications of augmentation.Overdo it and you will suffer...Some augmentations (look on athletes on steroids) can be very devastating and non debatable as to if they are harmfull or not.

I believe though that augementation itself if done in a well thought considerate manner is not harmfull,its beneficial.Take for example chemical fertilisers! What a marvelous discovery! One can give the plants many nutrients they need and revitalise the soil...Now ,i hear you talking about eutrophism in lakes attributed to their use, "plastic" tomatos and many other ills of this aumgentation.

What we are condemning is ABUSE of those supplements.Its a common phenomenon for farmers to disobey  instructions.It says use one killo per ton of water,the farmer uses 2-3 kilos "to have better result" or "just to be safe".Furthermore they dont let the earth to take a break and they demand continuous supply of products which makes overfertilisation a huge problem.Ok,if one uses a kilo of fertiliser per acre of land it may be not that disastrous...But thousands are doing it!

To conclude ,use of fertilisers and phytohormones pose no threat if done in a considerate matter.Of course one must follow all precautions.Dont drink maxicrop :laugh: Dont snort rootone :laugh: .Wash your hands after its use and be carefull! Even aspirin can cause ototoxicity (destruction of the nerves of the ear) if used in excess!

Some phytohormones (some synthetic ones mainly) have true health hazards especially if they are used in a commercial scale. I dont think though that it would be harmfull/ethically/morally incorect if one lets say uses coconut milk for its cytokinin properties or even human urine for its rooting properties.

That said,i would appreciate some extra input


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineytse
pilzero
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 151
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards [Re: Psiloman]
    #4209136 - 05/23/05 05:55 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

There is a difference between chemical fertilizers and phytohormones .
While chemical fertilizers manipulate an external factor of the ?plant system? , the concentration of nutrients , phytohormones is an internal factor governed by the plant.
It is really vital to provide to the plant the best conditions possible but manipulating its internal way of working is another thing!
A much more complicated thing worth exploring but not well known yet!

To give one oversimplified example:
Imagine someone getting the perfect ?set & setting? for being happy (manipulation of all the external factors) and imagine someone who tries to be happy changing his brain chemistry (internal factors). The second case sound quite ill , don?t you think?

It?s a nice discussion! You did well to ?resurrect it? :laugh:


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


κατσίκα


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiloman
member
Male
Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 1,116
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards [Re: ytse]
    #4209684 - 05/23/05 01:09 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

ytse said:
There is a difference between chemical fertilizers and phytohormones .
While chemical fertilizers manipulate an external factor of the ?plant system? , the concentration of nutrients , phytohormones is an internal factor governed by the plant.
It is really vital to provide to the plant the best conditions possible but manipulating its internal way of working is another thing!
A much more complicated thing worth exploring but not well known yet!

To give one oversimplified example:
Imagine someone getting the perfect ?set & setting? for being happy (manipulation of all the external factors) and imagine someone who tries to be happy changing his brain chemistry (internal factors). The second case sound quite ill , don?t you think?

It?s a nice discussion! You did well to ?resurrect it? :laugh:




For me external is reflected in internal...THey are more or less the same thing.Take for example salinity of the soil 9how much salt it contains)....Hig salinity triggers a stress responce to many plants which actually translates into the cell to different transcription of DNA,other sets of genes turning off and other turning on ,mass changes in all internal phytohormones etc etc..Well,you cant get more internal than changing the transcription of DNA! Same happens when the plant is injured. I believe that the controversy of internal versus externall is only phenomenical.The "internal manipulation " being "sinistrous" whereas the external manipulation bein "pure" is a misunderstanding of the unified nature of how world works

Of course its what kind of phytohormones one uses....Some phytohormones (artifical ones) are not broken easily down by the plant if not at all because they were designed by us to do so.Natural occuring phytohormones have "universal" breakdown pathways in the plant kingdom and if one uses them sparingly benefits can derive. FOr example ,making a 15% coconut milk aquaeus solution and spraying your cactus with it 2 times a month could lead in a) apical dominance (the cactus gets taller ,branching is suppressed) b) increased alkaloid content (from what i gather so far )  c)development of protoplasts to mature photosynthetic chloroplasts! Nothign sick with that so far...Now,if one obseeses and sprays his cactus everyday with the solution no wonder if he notices ill effect on the plant ,not on him though coconut cytokinins are harmless for human beings hence drinking of coconut milk is not unhealthy.

Is it generally a taboo asocciated with the word "hormones"? Maybe we as humans ,with the abuse of hormones (that could otherwise be used more or less safely) have destroyed the reputation of this term and distorted it to something ill or unnutural?

On the example concerning humans:

Its not oversimplified but many other factors come into play such as human habit and human nature ,which are lacking from plants.Chemical manipulation of the brain is a taboo too in our society! "Damned be the consumer of psychoactive materials!" ...There is a good reason though: Set and setting manipulation would be candidates not omaking room for addiction (psychological addiction) whereas a chemical happines agent that requires no effort and it is easy in administering (Just gulp the pill dude!) can harbor addiction.What is ill ,and allow me the expression perverted, is not the existence or application of such agents but the OVERperscription of them ,uneeded use and haste in which patients and doctors trust them.Look at todays pharmaceutical industries and they way they perscribe medicine especially legal psychoactive antidepressants! Ludicrous,immoral and filthy! Hence ,once more the problem is not on the agent,on the phytohormone,on the fertiliser ,it relys solely on its abuse and on its misuse.

Now that is what causes the fear,that is what causes the hesitation. Lets get it though on a more personal level ,shall we?

Would i use phytohormones on my plants?
Yes ,withing reason and within the guidlines given by both the manyfacturer and independed research i have conducted on my own.That means no excessive use and not using something that "i dont know what it does"

Would i drown my plants in phytohormone solutions and see me day after day spraying them with weird mixtures reciting weird scientific theories btween sprayings?

Certainly not.Not because of taboos ,or of being afraid that coconut milk or something equivalent might hurt  me but because i understant the science behind it and know that internal (as well as externall) factors affect plants and if i overdo it i might have lessthan optimum results.

Where would i use phytohormones?
I would use gibberelic acid (easily found in nature) to "wake up" seeds hard to germinate and to increase my germination rate.How much? The minimum amount to achieve this effect

I would use cytokinins (read coconut milk) on lets say plant material that are destined to be harvested in order to increase its active principles.Of course this will not be a simple buy cytokinin-spray it in tons-see what happens.It would require research

I might use cytokinins to induce lateral growth in species that are "branching hesitant" or on a salvia that i would like to transplant outdoors but also would like it to have as many photosynthetic units (read branches with leaves) as possible so as to withstand adverse enviromental contitions and maybe give me the oportunities to give mroe cutting to people who care about this plants.

Finally i would use betaines (a very widespread compound in nature lots of it found in many fruits,also look at a shampoo label you wash your hair with it!!!!) to help some plants withstand stress ,thats what betaines do. No more loosing a precious salvia plant on a train journey because "it couldnt make it" ...Apply some betaine ,and you have a  stress resistant cutting!

what i would NOT do with plant hormones?

I would never abuse them.  My moto is "Optimisation of the plant internal procedures,not abusive doping up that will destroy the plant in the long run"

Nothing ill with that i suppose,we just use some of the tricks nature showed us to optimize plant growth.Of course the whole story changes if someone reads this thread and goes manic on phytohormone use.Then,i would be the first person to pull his ear as a cautionary gesture

A footnote: Plant physiology is WAY MORE tolerant than mamal physiology. They have positive and negative feedback loops as well but from a hormonal point of view plants are safer to optimize than mamals.Plants are more forgiving even if you go overboard,mamals are not.

To overcome the "external vs internal" ,the "natural vs dare-i-say-unutural" ,the "humanmade vs naturemade" requires a lot of studying,thorough understanding of biology,chemistry and relevant sciences and a daring heart.Humans tend to feel like the "outlaws of this planet" ,the "bad sons of mother Nature".We are as natural as a fern ,as a pine tree.Our chemical makings are as natural as psilocybin from a mushroom and reserpine from Rauwulfia serpentina....

What we lack is COMMON SENSE and RESPONSIBILITY. If we use these along with phytohormones ,fertilisers or "whatever else that causes a marked effect" then we have found the golden ratio!

/me thinks of writing to phytohormone companies and urging them to add to their "Add 10ml of maxicrop per liter of water" a note saying "Add also  half a kilo Responsibility TM and ample ammounts of Common Sense"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineytse
pilzero
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 151
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards [Re: Psiloman]
    #4214429 - 05/24/05 03:58 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Psiloman, in a private communication we had you gave a very nice answer to the following question:

?Why should I boost (horomonically) the plant to do something it doesn?t do by itself. There should be a reason for not doing it? ?

It would be nice to paste your answer here as well!
But hey man, translate it before pasting it! :wink:

New arguments are more than welcome to this discussion


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


κατσίκα


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiloman
member
Male
Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 1,116
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Plant Boosting ? Health Hazards [Re: ytse]
    #4214782 - 05/24/05 05:26 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Here it goes,i will reformulate than translate.

?Why should I boost (horomonically) the plant to do something it doesn?t do by itself. There should be a reason for not doing it? ?

Yes there are reasons that plants do not overdo it with their hormones leading in excessive growth.In a natural enviroment more branches,lets say, would require more nutrients from the soil.Also enviromental factors like heavy wind could stress a heavily branched tree/plant.You may say "why the plant wouldnt boost its own alkaloids since they might protect it against predators"? Same answer here as well.It is EXPENSIVE for a plant to do so,its a big investment in nitrogen and organic molecules that the plant could have used otherwise. That nutrient needs of course are obliterated in a controlled garden where the gardener can supply extra nutrients to the soil,extra water and take care of plants.

Same holds true with GA3 (gibberelic acid) which breaks dormancy at seeds and higly dormant seeds.SO why doesnt nature overzealously applies GA3 to the plant seeds it harbors? Some plants can take YEARS for the seed to mature on the ground so it germinates! Why? Simply because evolutionary mechanisms are centered on survival.A seed tat takes long to mature will ensure the continuation of the ligeage if lets say its forest falls victim to fire or heavy predation by herbivorous animals.Sa young plant will not withstand fire,nor withstand being stripped bare of its leaves.A seed can survive a fire and has no leaves for animals to chew on.

So where does human application of GA3 comes into play? Simply: You cannot/will not wait for 1-3-5 years for a seed to reach maturing age and germinate.Here ,you can help it with gibberilins! You overide that evolutionary safety "net" because the plant in your posession will be safe at least f you are a)responsible grower b)dont grow the plants to simply reduce them to a psychoactive soup...The seed doesnt know it,but you know that you will watch out for its wellbeing.

That more or less summarises my answer that i gave in private to Ytse. Remember: There ARE reasons why plants dont go MAD with their hormones.And they are real,valid reasons from an evolutionary standpoint! If you choose to use phytohormones be sure to study their biology.Dont germinate seeds of rare species that you can protect to full maturation.Dont use auxins and cytokinins if you dont also provide the plant with the extra nutrients it will need.

One optimisation for use of phytohormones on an alkaloid/active substances rising method would be to use the proper hormone,in the proper dosage solely on "parts to be cut" or parts and cuttings that are ALREADY CUT for use (but continue metabolising ,hint hint!)

Please people,be sure to study this matter before going deeper.Your health may not be at risk,with modern fertilisers your plant's health propably wont risk too much.What is really at stake here,what is the real risk? The real risk is that of "ill mentality" ,that of being used to an abusive behaviour towards biologicall system with improper use in huge quantities. If one contracts this mentality (as if its a virus ) then in no time he will move on to see his/her plants only as "containers of psychoactives"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Shop:   Original Seeds Store Buy CBD, Cannabis Seeds, Compare CBD   Amazon Chlorella, pH Test Strips, Salvia, Scales

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Ethnobotanical Garden

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Salvia plant rotting leaves? leery11 1,226 13 06/16/07 10:11 AM
by Ron_Hero
* DEA is catching on to Entheogenic plant use.... mycoguy 1,560 17 12/04/16 05:24 PM
by nooneman
* anyone here grow non-trip plants?
( 1 2 3 all )
kadakuda 5,781 51 07/15/08 09:47 AM
by Dr. uarewotueat
* Another take on boosting plant alkaloid levels,under the light of current phytohormone discussions. Psiloman 2,372 7 08/13/05 07:09 PM
by stvip
* Foliar Feeding : Try it on you plants! Psiloman 1,154 5 06/21/05 05:03 PM
by Psiloman
* The Salvia Divinorum Live Plant Marketplace
( 1 2 3 4 ... 53 54 )
AsanteA 126,559 1,066 11/19/10 08:37 AM
by Cactusdan
* Ethnobotany - Medicinal Plants giz 6,263 6 04/15/06 03:05 PM
by CptnGarden
* Pachanoi cuttings taken from tall plant...question soShroomHungry 700 5 10/27/04 10:51 PM
by Gr0wer

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Magash, karode13, naum, Mostly_Harmless
2,764 topic views. 4 members, 31 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
MushroomCube.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.038 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.