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InvisibleSwami
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Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals
    #4187284 - 05/17/05 05:07 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

We pretty much understand the most important part of agronomy. We do not need to sprinkle bull blood, sacrifice virgins or pray to imaginary beings for a decent crop. Understanding plant growth is all that is necessary. Adding in God's wrath or pleasure at our behaviour is an unnecessary element for an abundant harvest.

Too many topics discussed here add in useless elements based soley on fantasy and heresay. This only furthers ignorance; never knowledge. While it may be more "fun", it is the antithesis to any sort of search for truth.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Swami]
    #4187320 - 05/17/05 05:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

the entire concept of "spirituality" floats on baseless ideas so what did you expect on a forum about spirituality?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Swami]
    #4187325 - 05/17/05 05:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:

I recently wrote an essay on this topic, more specifically the Venus figurines. They are figurines, mostly in statuette form, of obese or heavily pregnant women from the Aurignacian or Gravettian period of the upper Palaeolithic.

The women would carry them throughout their lifetime, a lifetime that included a large amount of sex, and ta-da, they'd get pregnant! Obviously the workings of the figurines. :smirk:


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Swami]
    #4187329 - 05/17/05 05:15 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Swami can you believe that we are superior to other races for not believing in that stuff, just knowing that all the crops need are the right soil?

I realize lots of places are still in the stone ages, while we have developed into the information age, where information is abundant due to the use of this new technology we call a computer.

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Droz]
    #4187349 - 05/17/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I don't believe he was speaking about people who lack the proper information, but instead people who have an available source of information with high accuracy and still deviate to believe alternative "truths" that they find more interesting.


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: spud]
    #4187367 - 05/17/05 05:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

We can evolve spiritually, philisopically and defiently technologically. Which part we develope better will be how we survive. Survival of the fittest i say. If we choose the wrong path and become extinct. It was a part of nature to lead us that way. If we do advance and do survive, wars will end and we shall grow strong.

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Droz]
    #4187379 - 05/17/05 05:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So you simply live to survive?

Also, I recommend "evolving" your ability to use the English language.  :smirk:


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Swami]
    #4187451 - 05/17/05 05:42 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

This only furthers ignorance; never knowledge. While it may be more "fun", it is the antithesis to any sort of search for truth.



This is not solely a science forum. Where questions on life in general are concerned, there is no truth. Even in science, fantasy is required, because without baseless allegations science would not have progressed as far as it has.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: spud]
    #4188096 - 05/17/05 07:55 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I thought that they were possibly symbols for the matriarchal society of that time? I do think i remember hearing that they were used for purposes of fertility. They represented the historical female, the earth godess, or whatever. Wide hips for child bearth, and large breasts for feeding the young. The key elements for continuing the population...


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Zero7a1]
    #4188152 - 05/17/05 08:04 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It's sorta like our society is not about survival, we have lots of technology and our society is built to last. It's sorta like survival is deep routed in it though. It has become so easy to survive simple now that we no longer look at it as survival.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


Edited by Droz (05/17/05 08:33 PM)


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Swami]
    #4188218 - 05/17/05 08:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

who are you to say what is unnecessary?  :sun:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Swami]
    #4188262 - 05/17/05 08:27 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You mean your search for truth right? Allow others to search anyway they choose. You are free to debate them and debunk them. You do not know what truth is for sure and you cannot know where it will be found. Are you the one who knows how to search for truth and which direction it may be found? My ears are open. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Icelander]
    #4188883 - 05/17/05 11:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Rituals and beliefs are simply expressions of an internal experiance. The belief in "God" is universal in every single culture. The law of cause and effect dictate that this behavior exists because something CAUSED it to become so. So what if we can't understand what the cause is, that doesn't mean that it can't be explained. To ask questions and examine all possiblities the The TRUE Search for TRUTH.

If you look closely enough you can find the logic in illogical systems of thought (and vice versa).

Quit belittling people who happen to refer to color by symbolic names instead of frequencies of lightwaves.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: spud]
    #4188999 - 05/17/05 11:28 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
The women would carry them throughout their lifetime, a lifetime that included a large amount of sex, and ta-da, they'd get pregnant! Obviously the workings of the figurines. :smirk:





Have you ever heard of the placebo effect?

Many times things work simply because we "believe" that they will work.

If there was a young woman who believed that she had to have one of these idols in order to help her get pregnant. She will have a harder time conceiving because she believes she will.

Once she gets her an idol, and has a child a year later.

Ta-da!

The idol worked.

Her belief/theory worked for her because she believed it would work.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: niteowl]
    #4189023 - 05/17/05 11:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Ever heard of sex?

I heard it works better than the placebo effect for getting you pregnant.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4189073 - 05/17/05 11:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
Quote:

This only furthers ignorance; never knowledge. While it may be more "fun", it is the antithesis to any sort of search for truth.



This is not solely a science forum. Where questions on life in general are concerned, there is no truth. Even in science, fantasy is required, because without baseless allegations science would not have progressed as far as it has.



Hypotheses are not fantasies. They are predictions based on what is known. I agree with Swami's point, which is basically what Occam's Razor is saying: Don't make more assumptions than necessary. If you can get a good harvest without sacrificing a virgin, then don't sacrifice a virgin.


--------------------


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: spud]
    #4189076 - 05/17/05 11:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If her sexual patterns don't change and the only difference is her belief in the idol. Then the idol worked.

Her belief in the need for the idol is what was keeping her from conceiving. The mind is a very powerful organ. It controls everything about us. If she believed that she needed the idol....then, she needed the idol.

Once she got the idol......she got pregnant because she believed she would.


They (who ever sold the idol) would not have been nearly as successful if they hadn't convinced their public that they needed it.


Oldest marketing strategy in the book.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: niteowl]
    #4189090 - 05/17/05 11:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If her sexual patterns don't change and the only difference is her belief in the idol. Then the idol worked.




She never had sex prior to the idol, therefor there is no change in behavior.



Quote:

Once she got the idol......she got pregnant because she believed she would.



She got pregnant because that's what sex does to you. If she had the beliefs without sex, she would of never of got pregnant.
Quote:


They (who ever sold the idol) would not have been nearly as successful if they hadn't convinced their public that they needed it.


Oldest marketing strategy in the book.



It was never sold.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Swami]
    #4189112 - 05/17/05 11:58 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Placebo is a powerful force caused by baseless rituals, but science is much more effective. Rituals to heal the sick may help them recover quicker in a primitive culture, but they don't compare to antibiotics.

It seems clear to me that these rituals are baseless and unnecessary in the modern age with science and technology functioning so much more effectively and actually using the principles of our reality to work their charm, but were these rituals always baseless? Did they ever serve any function?

If you believe in the power of placebo, then these rituals once may have aided, and continue to aid, humans without the help of real scientific cures. Chances are they can't cure cancer or cause rain to appear, but they may help raise the spirits of the sick and cause a woman to become more promiscuous in search of becoming pregnant. Whether or not these false effects are useful is purely point of view.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Baseless and Unnecessary Explanations and Rituals [Re: Ravus]
    #4189252 - 05/18/05 12:38 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Did they ever serve any function?

I believe the sole function was to attempt to alleviate fear.

"Wear these boar's teeth to ward off danger."

"Smudge this smoke on you to make your stomach feel better."

These rituals were to distract the patient from obsessing on their condition.

Many rituals, such as human sacrifice for better harvest, were merely acts of ignorant frustration. "We don't understand drought, so it is better to do SOMETHING rather than nothing; even if it is useless or worthless." I think it is time to outgrow this mindset.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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