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InvisibletrendalM
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Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment
    #4179420 - 05/15/05 08:07 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.mvgroup.org/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=33529&index=0

I'm wondering if anyone here has heard about this experiment before?

A subject was brought in and introduced to a fellow "subject", who was actually part of the experiment. The experimentor explained that they were researching the effect of punishment on the learning process. One subject was to be the teacher, the other the learner. Of course it was set up so that the subject was always chosen as the teacher. He/she watched as the learner (again, part of the experimenting team) was strapped into a chair and then have an electrode attatched to his arm. The "teacher" than was taken to another room and shown an electroshock machine with a row of switches ranging from 30 to 450 volts, with markings such as "mild shock", "strong shock", and "severe shock" underneath. The last three switches were simply marked as "XXX".

The teacher was then given a sheet with word-pairs on it. He/she was to read the word pairs to the learner, by microphone (they could not see eachother), who was supposed to remember the word pairs. Then the teacher would go back and read only the first word of each pair, followed by four words including the correct second word. The learner was to press a switch, marked 1-2-3-4, to indicate which word he thought was the correct second word. After each wrong answer, the teacher was to give the learner an electric shock. After each wrong answer they would move up the panel of switches to the next voltage.

In the other room, the "learner" had already detatched the electrode. He also set up a tape-player with pre-recorded voice on it including shouts of pain and requests to stop the experiment. These requests were played after certain voltages were reached. In the end, the tape said "I will not answer any more!", and the learner would simply stop pressing the answer buttons. Even with no replies, the experimentor would order the teacher to continue the shocks.

Most of the subjects did display some reluctance to give the electric shocks, especially as the voltage got higher. Whenever they would voice their concern, the experimentor would order them to continue the experiment.

Before the study took place, they had estimated that LESS than 1/10th of 1% of the subjects would continue to shock the learner.

In reality, nearly 50% of the subjects followed the orders of the experimentor and made it up to 450 volts.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4179458 - 05/15/05 08:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I should also mention that this experiment was done with the Nazi holocaust in mind, to see if "normal" people could be made to harm another human (who is not a threat) simply by ordering them to.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4179459 - 05/15/05 08:19 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well cheers for those 50% then  :thumbup:

I mean those who didn't obey


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/15/05 08:20 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4179463 - 05/15/05 08:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well then, this begs the question: can you hold people accountible for their actions under orders?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleStarchild
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4179475 - 05/15/05 08:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I've heard of this experiment before in my high school psychology class a couple years back. I thought it was pretty messed up myself....the fact that half of the test subjects would keep applying higher voltage shocks tells me that half of our society will do whatever it takes to "fit in" :shake:. Kinda depressing really...


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4179482 - 05/15/05 08:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Well then, this begs the question: can you hold people accountible for their actions under orders?




My opinion is yes, the "good man" prefers his own suffering to the suffering of others


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: Starchild]
    #4179487 - 05/15/05 08:26 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Starchild said:
Yeah I've heard of this experiment before in my high school psychology class a couple years back. I thought it was pretty messed up myself....the fact that half of the test subjects would keep applying higher voltage shocks tells me that half of our society will do whatever it takes to "fit in" :shake:. Kinda depressing really...




depends how you look at it, I on the other hand am happy that 50% would not do it


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4179493 - 05/15/05 08:27 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

My opinion is yes, the "good man" prefers his own suffering to the suffering of others

So are 50% of people "bad"?

Also note, this experiment included women as well as men.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleStarchild
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Posts: 77
Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4179495 - 05/15/05 08:27 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Well then, this begs the question: can you hold people accountible for their actions under orders?




In this case, absolutely yes. A psychologist running an experiment like this one has no authority over the participants, so they are under no obligation to obey the instructions if they conflict with ethical beliefs. It's not like being held at gunpoint by a crazy dude or something.


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4179504 - 05/15/05 08:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
My opinion is yes, the "good man" prefers his own suffering to the suffering of others

So are 50% of people "bad"?

Also note, this experiment included women as well as men.




nope, they are just not the example of a "good man", that's all


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4179510 - 05/15/05 08:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Oh and as a side note:

if anyone does want to download the video, PLEASE try to seed it for at least a little while after finishing. Right now I'm the only person seeding :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4179800 - 05/15/05 09:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I've been looking for this torrent for a while, thank you.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4180058 - 05/15/05 10:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

That was a very disturbing read. I was lost when I got to the part that said people even went ahead with the experiment as the teacher AFTER they heard what it was they had to do.

If that were me and they explained it to me, I would have given them my "what the fuck is wrong with you face" and then asked if they were joking and looked around for the hidden video cameras.

Boggles the mind.

I read in a TIME magazine article about 8 years ago a study on child development on the Critical 0-3 years that showed children who lived in the fear of abuse during the 0-3 years- develop a defensive hard wiring system in their neural networking that is less open "receptive" because its on the defense, to information and learning. They found those children did worse in school and test studies where memorization was required. Wonder if I can find it on the net.......it was a good read.

Science says, fear of pain is counter productive to the development of intelligence.

I scored reading that in time for my daughters critical years.

Even it wasn't counterproductive to torture, who the bleep would think it was a good idea? I can think of a few........

My uncle has one of those shock collars for his dog. He and my dad are so impressed with how well it works to make the dog obedient. They wished they had them for earlier hunting dogs. I bet if they were legal for kids, my dad would of put them on us for instant obedience.

gee why take the time to develop a loving respectful bond with your dog and make the time to train and teach it when you can just hit the zap/pain button? :crazy:

Mind you, these are two grown men who, if it were legal, would also hunt, shoot and kill black people for fun.

I realize that there are people out there who think torture is fun. It must be a way for them to transfer and release their own unhealed pain they are continually psychologically tortured by. :frown: :shrug:

Tren, why did you share this study on how sadistic humans are here?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4180060 - 05/15/05 10:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I've seen Milgram's experiment on old black & white film in some psychology course or another. Work on stages of morality from Piaget to Kohlberg to Lovinger and others have been very important for understanding the moral developmental hierarchy operating in human nature. The 'subjects' who supposedly received the electric shocks were acting (you could hear them yell, then shriek, then fall silent), but the subjects of "law-and-order" morality (Kohlberg) kept applying them anyway - just following orders. Those of higher moral development said 'forget this,' and up-n'-left, refusing to be 'Nazis.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/16/05 07:33 AM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4180618 - 05/16/05 01:04 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It's probably the same video as the link I posted at the top, then. It's in B&W, and obviously directly from the study.

I can see what you mean, watching the subjects, in the distinction between "law-and-order" types and the "higher moral" types.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4180639 - 05/16/05 01:10 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Tren, why did you share this study on how sadistic humans are here?

I think it's important to realize that humans are sadistic in this way. It's not something we should just sweep under the rug and ignore...or else we end up with situations like the holocaust.

Perhaps if we can all come to recognize and understand this sort of behavior, we will have a better chance of avoiding any large-scale atrocities in the future.

I highly doubt that will happen, though. Humans are just too sadistic for their own good.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4180779 - 05/16/05 01:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for answering that. I felt like it was missing from you in the original post.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4180835 - 05/16/05 02:20 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well the original post was more just to outline the experiment and offer the video for download. I had hoped some discussion would start, like this :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #4181734 - 05/16/05 12:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You also have to understand that the Karl Marx thinking of society, everything is set up for the "normal" social class to be all but slaves. Social conflict theorrists even "proved" that the school system is set up for the explicit purpose of teaching obedience and to follow orders rather than simply to learn, and it was purposely set up that way during the industrial age and never changed because it worked. With your entire childhood life you're being taught to be obedient, you wont have much options mentally.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Obedience - Stanley Milgram's Experiment [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4181879 - 05/16/05 01:09 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Indeed, we have to have workers for our factories, and, eventually, our offices who follow direction and carry out certain functions. Corporations/government's symbiosis is evident in near every aspect of the American life now.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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