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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Abortion
    #4174650 - 05/14/05 03:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

New Research indicates that babies are unconscious all the time before they're born.

Click here to read or hear the article.

ELEANOR HALL: Now to the debate over just what babies can hear before they're born. Many parents-to-be enjoy playing music and talking to their unborn child, but new research suggests there's little point – the babies can't hear a thing.

A New Zealand research team has found that babies in utero are in a deep sleep until they're born, and that while a foetus can react to sound and move away from painful stimuli like needles, it's unlikely to be able to consciously hear or feel.

But the study contradicts the views of many paediatric experts who say more research needs to be done.

Rachel Carbonell reports.

RACHEL CARBONELL: Professor David Mellor from Massey University in New Zealand undertook the research. He says it's based largely on animal studies and shows that foetuses can't properly hear or feel until they're out of the womb.

DAVID MELLOR: I think we need to distinguish between actually hearing, experiencing sound, being consciously aware of sound, and the impact of nerve impulses going along the nerves from the ears to the brain having an affect on the brain and its development and the pathways that are being laid down.

We would say that the foetus doesn't consciously hear sound impulses, but that those sound impulses can affect the brain. Likewise, if you have pain impulses the foetus will move away and react to them, but it won't actually feel it as pain, but there will be responses of hormone release and heart rate changes and things like this that will go on below the conscious level.

RACHEL CARBONELL: Professor Mellor says unborn children are unconscious until they're born, which limits their ability to use their senses even though they're often quite developed.

DAVID MELLOR: The foetus is asleep all the time before birth, and not only that it is asleep all the time, that there are chemicals in the foetus that are produced by the placenta and in fact its own brain, that actively keep it asleep.

This means that the idea of consciousness before birth is ruled out because sleep is a form of unconsciousness. But it doesn't mean that input from sense organs like the ears or the eyes, taste, touch smell, things like that, are having no effect on the brain.

RACHEL CARBONELL: He says his research doesn't mean that playing music or talking to unborn babies is worthless.

DAVID MELLOR: As a father and as someone who's been very interested in pregnancy both professionally and just personally over quite a few years, anything where mothers engage with their babies, and indeed where fathers engage with their babies before they're born is to be welcomed.

RACHEL CARBONELL: Associate Professor Brian Pyman from Melbourne University says the research is contrary to current common beliefs.

BRIAN PYMAN: We have taught that babies are actually able to learn about sound, that they have a learned response when they're born and that the evidence that I had for that was the observation in Belfast.

In this case there were babies who were being observed in their response to the theme to the soap opera Neighbours and it was felt that they were recognising that music, that the babies behaved as if they already knew about that music before they were born.

RACHEL CARBONELL: The research raises the question about whether unborn babies need to be anaesthetised or given pain relief during in utero surgery. Professor Mellor says the research points to the need for more research.

Associate Professor Pyman says paediatricians agree.

BRIAN PYMAN: I think that it is possible for a baby to respond to pain by reflexive movement, an aversion type of movement and it's possible to argue that they haven't learned anything from that experience.

RACHEL CARBONELL: So I presume that people like yourself in your area of expertise will be keen for more research in this area?

BRIAN PYMAN: Indeed. We are always interested in the stages through which a baby passes as they learn to listen.

ELEANOR HALL: Associate Professor Brian Pyman from Melbourne University speaking to Rachel Carbonell about that controversial new research suggesting babies can't hear before they're born.


If babies cannot consciously experience pain (that is, they get no pain sensation), can there be any objective argument as to why abortion is wrong?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Abortion [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4174906 - 05/14/05 04:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If babies cannot consciously experience pain (that is, they get no pain sensation), can there be any objective argument as to why abortion is wrong?

Of course. Being human does not rest on the ability to feel pain.

Humans living with CIPA cannot feel pain, but they are still considered humans, and it is a crime to kill them.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Abortion [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4175332 - 05/14/05 06:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

One study, thousand stuides, all different, chose which you believe and control the lives of other acoarding to it


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineRetired
Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 635
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Abortion [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4175345 - 05/14/05 06:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The world is over populated. If the mom is thinking of getting an abortion then they will not love the kid when it is born. It will in turn grow up fucked up and now the world is still over populated but will unwanted children.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Abortion [Re: Retired]
    #4175348 - 05/14/05 06:23 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If my mother had aborted me, I wouldn't have to goto work.


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PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Abortion [Re: Retired]
    #4175383 - 05/14/05 06:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The world is over populated. If the mom is thinking of getting an abortion then they will not love the kid when it is born. It will in turn grow up fucked up and now the world is still over populated but will unwanted children.

Awesome. Lets not argue about making decisions in respect to a human life, but take an irrelevent social problem facing the world and apply it to an unborn baby as the judge of it being a life or not.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Abortion [Re: looner2]
    #4175391 - 05/14/05 06:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I agree, abortion is not the solution to overpopulation. Personally, I don't like abortion. I don't think it should be illegal, but I think we should try to give people positive incentives which discourage it.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Abortion [Re: Retired]
    #4175396 - 05/14/05 06:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tradenmar said:
The world is over populated. If the mom is thinking of getting an abortion then they will not love the kid when it is born. It will in turn grow up fucked up and now the world is still over populated but will unwanted children.




I was born in an overpopulated world, I don't feel fucked up


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,866
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 2 months, 2 days
Re: Abortion [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4175636 - 05/14/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It is OK to make life...
It is OK to take life...
it is ... OK? :P he he

still, just being funny.. :wink:


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Abortion [Re: Gomp]
    #4175686 - 05/14/05 07:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Humans do not make life

life was made by billions of years of evolution, or god, or aliens or whatever, but it is only passed on by humans


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Abortion [Re: Retired]
    #4175692 - 05/14/05 07:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tradenmar said:
The world is over populated. If the mom is thinking of getting an abortion then they will not love the kid when it is born. It will in turn grow up fucked up and now the world is still over populated but will unwanted children.



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4175655/an/0/page/0


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InvisibleLe_Canard
Danger Man

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 93,269
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Abortion [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4176077 - 05/14/05 10:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting. It's just that to me, abortion seems so wrong. Not trying to spark a debate or anything, just saying what I feel. I oppose the death penalty on the same grounds for what it's worth.....


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Abortion [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4176119 - 05/14/05 10:23 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

regarding that article: consciousness is hardly a scientific concept
to be conscious of pain, not to be conscious of it?? this concept is a big object of debate in a.i. circles for years and years. then some scientists from another field come along and they already think they can define it


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinecaptiveharmony
dream
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 73
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Abortion [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4177066 - 05/15/05 03:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hhhhhmm... I've never been pregnant. I don't know how it feels... so I would never judge anyone who had an abortion. But I just couldn't do it on the off chance that the being inside me does have a soul. To me it's not worth the risk. And a lot of babies that do come to term have messed up lives. I think people deserve a chance... and if they decide their life is worth living then it can be his or her decision to end their life.


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always in love


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OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Abortion [Re: Retired]
    #4177240 - 05/15/05 06:31 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tradenmar said:
The world is over populated. If the mom is thinking of getting an abortion then they will not love the kid when it is born. It will in turn grow up fucked up and now the world is still over populated but will unwanted children.




this is quite a silly statement, how many women have you talked to that had children but who pondered abortion?

as if the act of actually having a child isnt going to change a persons perception of having a child. fuck. come on, get real.


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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Abortion [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4177305 - 05/15/05 08:15 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Interesting. It's just that to me, abortion seems so wrong. I oppose the death penalty on the same grounds for what it's worth.....



There is one main difference between the death penalty and abortion: the one being penalised with death has done something to deserve it, whereas the fetus has not. Furthermore, the fetus is living off the mother's nutrients, which the death rowee isn't.

I don't feel abortion is right under all circumstances. For instance, if someone wants an abortion because they forgot to take their pill, that seems wrong to me, as there can be no moral actions without a personal sense of responsibility. However, in cases where the woman took all possible precautions (pills, condoms, etc) or where the woman was raped, I think she should have a say in a matter that will impact her life so greatly.

Quote:

Not trying to spark a debate or anything, just saying what I feel.



Isn't that what this thread is for?  :grin:


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinefresh313
journeyman
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Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 2,537
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Re: Abortion [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4177327 - 05/15/05 08:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

aborted babies become omnipotent


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OfflineRetired
Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 635
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Abortion [Re: Retired]
    #4177328 - 05/15/05 08:49 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tradenmar said:
they will not love the kid when it is born. It will in turn grow up fucked up and now the world is still over populated but with unwanted children.




I did not say that being born in an over populated world is what fucks them up


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Abortion [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4177669 - 05/15/05 12:04 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

This world needs either more easily acquired contraceptives, or more abortions. Either one leads to the same effect, but abortions are more time-consuming.

And what's with condoms? We can put a man on the moon, but we can't get a more pleasurable device than a thin sheet of latex?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDoom
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Re: Abortion [Re: Ravus]
    #4177787 - 05/15/05 12:38 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

polyurethane is better, but its expensive, and when it comes down to beer + rubbers or just rubbers, you gotta snag the hooch every time.


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