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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/29/99
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Merging *DELETED*
    #417442 - 10/08/01 01:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Merging [Re: Ishmael]
    #417572 - 10/08/01 04:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The topic: Merging.

Ishmael, I get what you are getting at. Mmmm, kinda problematic problem and you offer level-headed solutions.

I'll add this:

A learning space needs to be hospitable not to make learning painless but to make the painful things possible... things like exposing ignorance, testing tentative hypotheses, challenging flase or partial information, and mutual criticicm of thought. None of these can happen in an atmosphere where people feel threatened and judged.

Makes one scratch their head, "hmm?!?"

Forever Never Stops

Edited by oneoverzero on 10/08/01 03:29 AM.



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Anonymous

Re: Merging [Re: Ishmael]
    #417667 - 10/08/01 07:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

As for me personally, I have no reason to discuss the ideas that I already have. I have a hard time explaining myself to people, but I know what I know and for now that is good enough for me. Most of the others seem to cover those topics anyway... with due justice which is something I don't feel I could provide. I like to explore a lot of topics, pick up what works for me, and silently go about my business as a madman.

Know all... tell nothing!

Time is not the killer... we are the killers of time.
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Anonymous

Re: Merging [Re: Ishmael]
    #417669 - 10/08/01 07:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

So does this mean you don't want to share your thoughts on magick?

Time is not the killer... we are the killers of time.
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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Merging [Re: Ishmael]
    #417814 - 10/08/01 10:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

A very interesting question I think. It is my nature to object to anything (even if i agree), so here goes:
The Current Situation varies greatly across the globe. People who starve to would devote very little time to philosophy I assume, the closest would probably be a call to God to end their misery (by bringing food, not, ENDING anything...). This could be seen as escapism too. The belief that a great benevolent being will bring help. Or that the same omnipotent being has a reason to make you this miserable. But I digress, your question was not one about faith.
The point I was initially going to make was:

If a man has bread, he wil philosophize about it. If a man has no bread, he will be too busy trying to find one. (a vaguely remembered quote fom someone I don't remember...)

A problem I have found with people who view themselves as open-minded with deep philosophical ideas about the world are just as resistant to change as the next guy. If you challenge their views they often react in much the same way as most christian fundamentalists (nothing against them in particular, christians just seem a popular lot to be bashing :) would if you challenge their belief. I feel that this is part of the essence of your post.

The other part of it seems to be about the dualism we seem to be able to percieve in everything. I often experience a profound ambiguity towards my belief. I get excited about them, and believe I am opening myself to the flow of the dao. At other times I feel like I'm just programming myself to believe in all these far-fetched theories becaus I want to escape. It's a way of making life more interesting.

As to wether your philosophy spills over to your life, I find myself asking the question "Do you practise what you preach" to both myself and others. Most don't, and I'm not going to say I do, but it seems most people don't even make an effort. i do at least that, and have been pleasantly surprised at how easy it can be. It just needs time and constant repetition.

I think it is important thoug, when you find an idea, or philosophy if you like, that you play with it for a while. Explore it, talk about it, see the different sides to it before you try to integrate it into your every-day life as a way of being/doing.

I believe this thread has potential. This should be discussed so we don't stiffen, but remain soft and pliable, changeable. That?s what made us into humans after all, the ability to change ourselves.

There's a saying that goes like this: The only constant in the universe is, paradoxically, change.
I'd like to add another constant: Friction, the resistance to change. It results in destruction



--
Perhaps you trust your eyes,
but can you trust what you lie your eyes upon?


--------------------
--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
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Offlinegribochek
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Re: Merging [Re: Ishmael]
    #418607 - 10/08/01 08:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Escapism is a general disease pertaining to the computer world in general, and this forum is no exception. However, all life is a search, and it is a search for something which can not be found in words or books or computers or things or ideas. Each of the above, however, are valid avenues for the Search, even Swami's science-like claims are. I hope, thus, your post does not express your personal dissatisfaction with the forum, because if you leave the forum will loose one of its deepest posters. It is simply that some most obvious things escape people's attention precisely because they are so obvious that words can only complicate them.

Such ideas as Astral Projection, Aliens, etc. inevitably come into play when a mind suddenly faces its own depth and tries to project what it sees onto the outside world. These are distractions, but no more so then the trees on a road which you stop to marvel at. One wouldn't be justified telling everybody that trees do not exist and that the road is the only real thing, right? Well, this is the case with all those topics you mention. These things, whether real or not, are quite marvelous to ponder and recognizing this, I restrain myself from yelling "oh, gosh, people, don't you see how stupid this is?" because I know full well that to me, when I entertained this kinds of ideas (did and still do) they are completely real and very-very much fun to have.

Well, anyway, (gotta cut the post short, people are waiting for me to go) the point is, don't get disappointed too quickly, that's all.


----
You punish God, not the other way around.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Merging [Re: Ishmael]
    #418738 - 10/08/01 10:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What is your faith in? Have you cut through the extraneous levels and arrived at a 'concept' of the Experience that has been most profound? If you speak of philosophy, you speak of the verbal explication of an idea - a concept that one can use to symbolize such an Experience. If there is no Experience giving rise to a concept, there is no Spiritual Reality giving rise to anything but clever words.

Once upon a time, I experienced the 'I' of "Unbearable Compassion" that is spoken of in the book 'Be Here Now.' I then 'Realized' that That was Ultimate Reality, insofar as a human being can Experience It. I set out to understand by what names I should refer to this Ultimate Reality. My identity became that of a 'seeker.' Seeking gave meaning to my life. I talked about it with those who would listen. It got me a Bachelors degree in philosophy. I came to believe that the most profound manifestation of this was to call 'It' Christ. I received a Masters degree in Theological Studies. I was not a 'churchy' person so I carried this quest into graduate school and fought like hell to integrate the Sacred in the profane, mechanistic world of psychology. Eventually I took a Ph.D. Student/intellectualizing years have been over now since '83. The seeking has been replaced by the finding and the living out. Last night I randomly pulled McKenna's 'Archaic Revival' from the shelf and read this:" I think people are in love with the journey. If you were to suggest to people that the time of seeking is over and that the chore is now to face the answer, that's more of a challenge!" McKenna further said with regard to direction in life, "I believe that the best idea will win. We are all under an obligation to ourselves and to the world to do our best - to place the best ideas on the table." After the seeking is over, there is creating. We can create in and around ourselves the best ways to manifest the Ultimate Truth that we have Experienced. Our very lifestyles can be a manifestation of Truth. This is Incarnation in the most real and practical meaning of the word. This is philosophy and religion in action.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Merging [Re: Ishmael]
    #419170 - 10/09/01 04:18 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If you have a true philosophy or spirituality that you follow, it should be used within your life at all times. Becoming human is not something that you can really define, although certain things are described as being part of the human spirit, the truth is that there is no one definition of being human. Hitler was very much a human, though I tend to think most people would consider him to be something inhuman(an image he was trying to create, an image of himself as "god"). Narcissism and violence are just as ingrained in the "human spirit" as any other trait such as love and forgiveness. These shall remain part of the human spirit so long as they exist and flourish within "society."

As far as using this board as an escape, I think anyone(well perhaps anyone other than a vendor) who would tell you that this board was not an escape, would be somewhat delusional. Much like the entertainment television, it is merely an escape from reality. Of course, much of what we do in "Western" societies is about distraction of the "masses," because the "masses" generally don't want to think about reality. Take the current bombardment happening in Afganistan, inside the newspaper there was a layout as if it were a football play. There were stats and infomation about the "players." Had they shown the reality of violence that is happening upon a people(because of their government(not taking a position... if you want to know my position check the political group)) how would most people be able to go about there happy ignorant lives. Reality is that there are people starving in the streets of every country on every continent(Antartica doesn't count, it's not really inhabitated), half a continent of poor will likely be dying within the next 10-20 years, people in power are slaughtering other people because they do not agree with them, we're destroying habitat all over the world because of war or the people do not have any other means to support themselves, governments around the world are stealing food ment for the poor and using it to feed their armies, etc. Reality is not pretty, if we were to stare into the vastness of reality constantly there would be no laughter, no happiness, no joy, some would go so far as to say no humanity. People who are lucky enough to be born in nations where many of these things are not taking place, simply want to ignore them because it's easier.

As for me personally, I personally believe that others are entitled to their own beliefs and pursuits so long as they don't infringe upon my rights and apply my belief to others. Now this does not mean that I don't voice my opinion, simply that I do not force my beliefs on others. Having been brought up in a Judeo-Christian background, many of my beliefs have come from there. But as I said these are my beliefs, this is the philosophy I follow(a live and let live type of person). I also tend to agree with what someone said earlier, many do not follow their own beliefs. I don't have an answer for any of the problems plagueing everyone, so I avoid the question. While escapism certainly isn't the answer, it's what I am capable of for now. This does not mean that I do not volunteer at times, this just means for the major problems I feel incapable of doing anything other than "sticking my head in the sand."



--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/29/99
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Re: Split *DELETED* [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #419491 - 10/09/01 01:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by Ishmael


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Offlinegribochek
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Re: Split [Re: Ishmael]
    #419520 - 10/09/01 02:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ish, you raise the most profound question known to me. But, really, what _can_ we do? Knowing that death is coming, what can we do, but try to enjoy and live to the fullest every moment of our lives. And for some it means, yes, for some it means, roll over and go back to sleep, for what is more enjoyable then those 5 last minutes before you have to get up and move around in what we call "waking state"?

Not only we "may" be already dead. We _are_ already dead, precisely because death is an inevitability. And it doesn't matter whether the world will crumble down to pieces in two days or you are going to die of old age in 70 years. Every moment of life is to be lived and, strangely enough, one must realize that however much we are not aware of this, every moment of life _is_ lived. Facing death in a way an AIDS patient does makes one aware of this fact (that life is being lived, not that it is to be lived). It is a simple and obvious fact that, unfortunately, no one ever notices -- we are already given all that we need, we are already _there_ whatever _there_ might mean.

Facing the reality in the way you are putting it might to some mean "stock up on the survival equipment", but then for me it means this "write as much poetry as you can, let your whole life be poetry, let everything you do be a poem, the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you look, everything". But a good poem may take years to write, should I start then? Of course I should, even though the world in its madness may not let me finish it, because the joy is not in completion, but in striving, not in finding but in searching. And with all that I do I must remember the following:

1. No one can be saved by others.
2. One can only save himself.
3. Everyone is already saved.

As you can see, nothing else to do, but write poetry....

----
You punish God, not the other way around.


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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Split [Re: Ishmael]
    #419625 - 10/09/01 03:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just a qick note:
What you say in your second post is more or less like the Matrix movie. Most people I know who have seen it say, "You know, it could really be like that." with joking grin on theur face. Then they roll over and fall asleep. It saddens me that it takes something from hollywood to introduce such an idea (that reality is far from what you think it is), but what worries me more is that it has the opposite effect of making people embracing these kind of ideas. It makes them more harmless, and people won't take them serious. They will just answer "you have seen the matrix too many times". Only when I told one of my closest friends (who takes my ideas seriously no matter how wierd) that I think it is true, he got this frightened expression in his face and asked me to tell more about it.
Uh, anyway, I'm straying away from the original topic and my initial intention of a quick note, but the notion of the human race living in a prison is an intriguing one. Just go read some castaneda and do some acid afterwards, that'l do it for ya :)

--
Millenium hand and shrimp.


--------------------
--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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Anonymous

Re: Split [Re: Ishmael]
    #420095 - 10/09/01 09:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

>>So again I ask. Now that this is the case, before the pillars and ceilings fall into rubble, what do we do? We may have only a month to live (or a week or a day); we may only have a month to make something better of the world and ourselves.

To be more precise we have 1 year, 8 months to make something better of the world and ourselves.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Split [Re: Ishmael]
    #420167 - 10/09/01 11:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In 1971 I went to college to become a microbiologist. I wasn't sure if I wanted to become a physician, or work at Ft. Detrick making biological weapons. I was a 'hawk' back then, not a 'dove.' I would extract toxicodendron from poison oak berries and plan to spread it on toilet seats in the boys gym in high school, to begin an unknown epidemic to close down P.E. which I hated. I never did lay down the toxin, become a microbiologist or a physician or a weapons manufacturer. Psychedelics opened my eyes to entirely new dimensions and ways of being. So today I went to the Bloodmobile (only they rejected me 'cause I'd recently returned from a malarial area in Nigeria), and afterwards, continued on my job as crisis counselor. The last girl who came to me was staffed EH - emotionally handicapped, but she was bright, articulate and cute. She was also scared about anthrax, and did my best to allay her fears about biolgical dispersal in Miami. She wants to talk with me again tomorrow. After school I ran into the faculty member who sent her to me and she told me that for 3 years this girl has had a constant problem with fears that border on paranoia. I'm gonna suggest to you as well as her to bolster up your knowledge about disease control, epidemiology, and the miracle of antibiotics. Anthrax, for one, is not an airborn contagion like the pneumonic form of plague that killed 3/4 of Europe. We can quarantine and treat. We have healthier immune systems (influenza and pneumonia still weed out the aged and infirm, but we don't panic), and we understand that it's not dog breath that causes plague, but Pasteurella Pestis, carried by fleas. If you are obsessed by hellish, nightmarish, apocalyptic visions...Stan Grof's BPM III phenomenology may be behind it. It doesn't mean that you're about to witness Pestilence and Death - two of the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. If you are obsessed by depressive scenarios, and truly can't shake them off - then get a professional to help you shake them off. I hear despair - loss of hope - in your words. If it's not a passing mood, it may be clinical depression. This isn't sadness I'm talking about, it's something that can develop psychotic features in some people. I know - I've been right to that edge myself. Don't multiply the bummer 'cause you can't 'lift yourself by your own bootstraps.' You wouldn't drill your own teeth, or set your own broken bone, so find someone to help pull you out of this private hell-state.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/29/99
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Re: Split [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #420869 - 10/10/01 04:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You can't coax a stone to move with words...

Edited by Ishmael on 10/10/01 09:34 PM.



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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: Split [Re: Ishmael]
    #421062 - 10/10/01 06:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not afraid of ideas or possibilitys. O wait!@... hmm maybe I am, I don't know I havent made up my mind. Help me out with this Ish you seem to 'Know' alot about human nature. ( ;



" Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it? I do not think it can be done.

The universe is sacred.
You cannot improve it.
If you try to change it, you will ruin it.
If you try to hold it, you will lose it.

So sometimes things are ahead and sometimes they are behind; Sometimes breathing is hard, sometimes it comes easily; Sometimes there is strength and sometimes weakness;
Sometimes one is up and sometimes down.

Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses, and complacency. " ~Lao Tsu.




"Tao abides in non-action,
Yet nothing is left undone.
If kings and lords observed this,
The ten thousand things would develop naturally.
If they still desired to act,
They would return to the simplicity of formless substance.
Without form there is no desire.
Without desire there is tranquillity.
And in this way all things would be t peace." ~Lao Tsu.




"The softest thing in the universe
Overcomes the hardest thing in the universe.
That without substance can enter where there is no room.
Hence I know the value of non-action.

Teaching without words and work without doing
Are understood by very few." ~Lao Tsu.


I'm not parinoid... O wait! thats right I'm just lost in the depths of dinial and desillusion... Right? ( ; thats the only way it can be...




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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Split [Re: Ishmael]
    #421278 - 10/10/01 10:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

There is a difference between fear and paranoia. Paranoia by definition is illness. I can face my fears, the middle school child in question cannot, and moreover, it serves no purpose for her to agonize over a present possibility over which she has no control. You're right, it probably won't be anthrax. Personally, I'm hoping it won't be Ebola or Marburg or a similar hell-spawn. What I can do is attempt to allay fears. Fears in a child won't help her. Your fears may motivate you to obtain a variety of antibiotics, move to a remote region or build a shelter with micropore filtration. Political correctness and job security has nothing to do with the handling of a frightened child who does not know about CBR (Chemical/Biological/Radiological) warfare, and dispersal mechanisms. Fear, by the way is irrational, not rational, i.e., it is not reason, but it certainly has its place to motivate usfor survival sake. Paranoia does not have a place in a healthy functioning psyche. Relating past personal history is not relying upon credentials. I have no credentials in the field of microbiology or weapons. It was merely a mention of a strong interest that I once had and a familiarity with these things. My actual credentials define my intellectual and occupational selves - nothing more. My analysis stands, but I have no further interest in engaging reactionary and/or inflammatory thinking. Lastly, (speaking of credentials) my wife was trained in political science at Cornell, and disagrees entirely with any notion that our sytem - the strongest system on Earth - is on the verge of immanent collapse. I mention this as an encouragement to you, not as a one-up-man-ship.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: Split [Re: ~`Tursiops truncatus`~]
    #421314 - 10/10/01 10:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Knowing nothing about human nature, I find myself knowing too much.

Here is a question Mark, purely rhetorical, would you consider futile action (futility being when an action is inherently destined to fail; completely ineffective efforts) to be a mental disorder?

My mental disorder isn't depression, egotism or paranoia, it's hope. And it's the worst one of all.

And now I have no disorder and am free.
Jacob

Edited by Ishmael on 10/10/01 09:46 PM.



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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: Split [Re: Ishmael]
    #421531 - 10/11/01 01:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

did I mention that I love you guys.. ^_^

You guys ever seen a hook-worm? I don't know about you guys but I sure as hell would rather die from anthrax or be eatin by a bear, or somthing to that extent then to have a hookworm grow inside me and then start to eat me from the inside out. hmmm on second thought it might be a very interesting experience, to say teh least. or maybe I could just let it chill inside me untill most of my fat and tissue are gone and then try to lure its 3 foot ass out through my mouth using a large raw steak.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Split [Re: Ishmael]
    #421671 - 10/11/01 07:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"Through me you pass into the city of woe;
Through me you pass into eternal pain:
Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved:
To rear me was the task of power divine,
Supremest wisdom, and primeval love.
Before me things create were none, save things
Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here."

-The Divine Comedy
Canto III - 'Hell'



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Split [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #421996 - 10/11/01 03:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

and so one walks through the inscribed gate...
and into the inferno...
~~~

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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