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 Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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 Innocence 
#4173204 - 05/13/05 11:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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In the Man-Boy love thread, I notice a lot of accusations that allowing completely consensual, loving relationships between men and boys would somehow violate a minor's "innocence".
Yet I have never seen an example of innocence in children, unless it is as a synonym for ignorance, which I believe it is.
A myth is that children are "innocent" because they don't know what they're doing, which is highly debatable and again goes back to the ignorance argument. When a child kicks the family dog, he's "innocent", some people claim, because he's ignorant of the dog's feelings.  So a child can create a complete imaginary friend with its own emotions and personality, yet they can't even recognize that hitting an animal hurts it? This is purely wishful thinking, and a way to encourage kids to do an action and then pretend they didn't know what they were doing. I know this because I was once a child.
Then we have the "cute innocence", which tends to be the type where everybody goes Awww at the kid. However, this cute innocence is the same type of ignorance that annoys us in adults, and there's no reason it should be encouraged. When the little girl thinks her baby sister was dropped off by the stork in a white cloth, you should tell her the truth and try to actually expand her neurons rather than saying how cute she is and encouraging her ignorance.
So in the end, innocence ends up either being an act of ignorance or sometimes manipulation, and doesn't really exist as part of a child's personality anymore than it does in an adult's, as both are just stupidity and ignorance from lack of experience and knowledge. Children are no more innocent than the wolf who hunts and kills the sheep, and the wolf is no more innocent than the serial killer who tortures and kills his victims, because all guiltiness and innocence is just varying levels of ignorance and manipulation. A child who eats a steak shouldn't be considered innocent because he's ignorant of the fact that a mother cow had to be killed to create it, because that child is an encouragement for companies to continue to kill the animals. Ignorance is not an excuse, nor should it be.
So we look at a consensual relationship between a man and a boy in puberty, who has an even broader outlook on life than the children talked about above, and yet we say he can't express love for a man even if that boy initiated the relationship? People will always be ignorant, a 20 year old is very ignorant compared to 60 year old in most cases, but I don't believe that having a consensual relationship with a 20 year old should be punished anymore than having a consensual relationship with a 14 year old if both participants in the relationship are willing, accept the responsibility of their actions and do not harm one another or anyone else.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland 
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Re: Innocence [Re: Ravus]
#4173209 - 05/13/05 11:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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simple question.
What age do YOU think children are ready to decide whether or not to engage in sexual relations?
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Innocence [Re: Thor]
#4173228 - 05/14/05 12:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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That depends on the child and situation. I think one of the worst legal issues we ever created was when we drew a completely arbitrary line across our lives and said above that you're fine, below you'll go to prison for decades.
I think if a child is developed (hit puberty), consensual, knowledgeable and agreeing to what he's doing, he should be able to have a relationship with anyone older than him he wants. Obviously pre-pubescent children shouldn't engage in sexual relationships with anyone, because they're not even sexually developed. I can't draw an arbitrary line for everybody, because that'd be just as bad as drawing the line at 18 like we do now.
Let me ask you a question: If a 20 year old adult is mentally impaired and has the brain of a 13 year old, and he has a completely consensual relationship with another man, should the "normal" man go to prison for decades as if he had sex with a 13 year old? Because according to most people, it's not the bodies, as the human body becomes prepared for sexual activity when it reaches puberty, it's the mind.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: Innocence [Re: Ravus]
#4173258 - 05/14/05 12:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I find it reprehensible to take advantage of those who have not developed the faculties to understand the ramifications of their actions.
When I was 19 working in the local drug store a voluptuous 15 year old hit up on me and kept coming to my check out stand. She gave me her phone number (I did not know she was only 15 at the time, she could have passed for 18). I called her several times and engaged her in a fairly lengthy conversations. During the course of our communications I had come to the conclusion that though the girl was infatuated with me and quite physically desirable, she was also quite mentally immature. To take advantage of the situation would be the wrong thing to do. I would have loved to have sex with her, she was smitten with me - finding me as witty and charming as I had always known myself to be. It would be dishonorable to have pursued sex with her while she thought she would have a chance at love. It was only a four year difference between us, not much chronologically, but there was a wide gulf in maturity and expectations.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Innocence [Re: Ravus]
#4173263 - 05/14/05 12:23 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think one of the worst legal issues we ever created was when we drew a completely arbitrary line across our lives and said above that you're fine, below you'll go to prison for decades.
We have to draw a line somewhere, or do you suggest we say its a free for all and that judges should review all cases in question.
Quote:
I think if a child is developed (hit puberty), consensual, knowledgeable and agreeing to what he's doing, he should be able to have a relationship with anyone older than him he wants.
So say a 12yr old boy, feels mature enough to have sex with a man he should be allowed to? Do you honestly think a 12yr old boy understands the consequences of his actions? I mean really do you think that his mind is developed enough to grasp what he's doing?
Quote:
I can't draw an arbitrary line for everybody, because that'd be just as bad as drawing the line at 18 like we do now.
Well thankfully others do draw a line, we need to have some boundries, otherwise what stops a pedo having sex with a 6yr old? You know there is a line, you just don't want to say it as its a sign that you admit there is some consensus on what is mature and what is not.
Of course there are those who mature faster, but those are a tiny majority and no sensible country would pass a law to respect them and disrespect the vast majority of children. Sure I'm all for a judge being given some lee way in cases involving so called consensual sex, but I'm not for a situation where children are given the same responsibilities as an adult.
Quote:
Let me ask you a question: If a 20 year old adult is mentally impaired and has the brain of a 13 year old, and he has a completely consensual relationship with another man, should the "normal" man go to prison for decades as if he had sex with a 13 year old? Because according to most people, it's not the bodies, as the human body becomes prepared for sexual activity when it reaches puberty, it's the mind.
LOL! Wow, what a outstanding example that is. Not.
Firstly he's mentally retarded, thus his judgement is obviously lacking. If you want to compare mentally retarded people to pedo's I'm all for it 
But seriously, that is just ridiculous.
Theme of the night, 'Reaching for logic'
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I find it reprehensible to take advantage of those who have not developed the faculties to understand the ramifications of their actions.
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I don't think anyone on this thread has said differently. Maybe they have but I must have missed it. So what's your point?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Innocence [Re: Thor]
#4173313 - 05/14/05 12:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
We have to draw a line somewhere, or do you suggest we say its a free for all and that judges should review all cases in question.
Of course, it's better to give out decades of prison to people for the sake of convenience because we need a line drawn somewhere.
Sex is not driving a car, it's not smoking tobacco. These are not completely natural and instinctual urges that mostly all humans experience. Sex is as natural as eating, drinking and breathing for humans.
Quote:
So say a 12yr old boy, feels mature enough to have sex with a man he should be allowed to? Do you honestly think a 12yr old boy understands the consequences of his actions? I mean really do you think that his mind is developed enough to grasp what he's doing?
I believe it's completely variable on the circumstances. Some 12 year olds are mature and sexually developed, and might have a normal relationship with an 18 year old. Some will not. All humans are different, and this should be taken into account when talking about sexuality.
Quote:
Well thankfully others do draw a line, we need to have some boundries, otherwise what stops a pedo having sex with a 6yr old? You know there is a line, you just don't want to say it as its a sign that you admit there is some consensus on what is mature and what is not.
Of course there are those who mature faster, but those are a tiny majority and no sensible country would pass a law to respect them and disrespect the vast majority of children. Sure I'm all for a judge being given some lee way in cases involving so called consensual sex, but I'm not for a situation where children are given the same responsibilities as an adult.
"Tiny majority"? So you think 99% of people are ignorant and incapable of sex at 17, and suddenly at 18 they mature and are ready for sex?
It's the child's body, if they are physically developed and consent to a loving relationship with someone older, a judge should be able to see this and let them go.
I see you missed the point of the analogy completely, and probably don't want to answer it. Since a child is physically capable of relationships past puberty, then we'll assume that we don't want children having relationships because of their minds, even though an adult with the mind of a child is considered fine. (Seems an arbitrary distinction to me.)
So then why do we not want children to have relationships, even though according to nature past puberty it's completely natural? Because we want to maintain their ignorance, and want to keep thinking of them as just blank little chalkboards with no personality, decisions or will of their own. It makes absolutely no sense in the real world for many of these consensual cases.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
Autonomous said:
I find it reprehensible to take advantage of those who have not developed the faculties to understand the ramifications of their actions.
Great. Let's immediately press charges against Dick Cheney.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Innocence [Re: Ravus]
#4173332 - 05/14/05 12:50 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of course, it's better to give out decades of prison to people for the sake of convenience because we need a line drawn somewhere.
So please say you feel there should be no age of consent, you constantly attack me for saying that society needs some guide, yet you don't dare mention a number. Brave. BTW AGAIN I remind you I would be satisfied at 16, and that judges be given more power to treat each unique case with special circumstances.
Quote:
I believe it's completely variable on the circumstances. Some 12 year olds are mature and sexually developed, and might have a normal relationship with an 18 year old. Some will not. All humans are different, and this should be taken into account when talking about sexuality.
Sure, wonderfull, but again I ask you, what then is a age of consent in your mind? Should we abolish the law, let everyone and anyone have sex without boundries??
Quote:
"Tiny majority"? So you think 99% of people are ignorant and incapable of sex at 17, and suddenly at 18 they mature and are ready for sex?
You no read so good eh? Again, I said 16, we need to have a line somewhere, do you suggest we have no law of consent? By all means state that you do, I have the balls to say what I think you however don't.
Quote:
It's the child's body, if they are physically developed and consent to a loving relationship with someone older, a judge should be able to see this and let them go.
I ask you this, how hard is it to convince a child to have sex with you as a mature adult? I mean come on, I could manipulate a child into sex if that was my goal, but I don't cause I would be exploiting their weakness, immaturity.
Quote:
So then why do we not want children to have relationships, even though according to nature past puberty it's completely natural?
Humans used to live no longer than 30, our sexual development over the passage of time is reflective of our ancestry. 12yrs old 1000 years ago a child was already considered mature, however today a 12yr old doesnt have to go out and hunt, go to war, etc..
Quote:
Because we want to maintain their ignorance, and want to keep thinking of them as just blank little chalkboards with no personality, decisions or will of their own. It makes absolutely no sense in the real world for many of these consensual cases.
It makes no sense to justify exploitive behavior. If a child is not mature enough for sex, an older mature person should not be allowed by law to take advantage of them.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Innocence [Re: Thor]
#4173366 - 05/14/05 01:02 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
You no read so good eh? Again, I said 16, we need to have a line somewhere, do you suggest we have no law of consent? By all means state that you do, I have the balls to say what I think you however don't.
It's funny, but if you notice I do read good, it's you who don't remember good. You didn't even mention the fact you criticize me on until the very post you were talking about it in.
You say society had to draw the line, and that line is 18, so I used that. You didn't mention drawing it at 16 anywhere until here.
Quote:
Sure, wonderfull, but again I ask you, what then is a age of consent in your mind? Should we abolish the law, let everyone and anyone have sex without boundries??
There should be guidelines rather than a simple number. It actually takes a couple more seconds to think about, but if you keep the guidelines such as that the child is consensual, sexually capable, unharmed and willing, doesn't that make a lot more sense than picking a number out of a hat and saying 15 or 19?
There are, after all, other types of boundaries than numbers. There should be boundaries to sexuality as a whole to prevent rape and harm to unwilling people, but this doesn't need a number, it needs guidelines to determine when someone has been violated and how to deal with it, just like relationships between younger and older people.
Quote:
I ask you this, how hard is it to convince a child to have sex with you as a mature adult? I mean come on, I could manipulate a child into sex if that was my goal, but I don't cause I would be exploiting their weakness, immaturity.
How hard is it to convince a giddy college girl to have sex with you? I mean come on, I could manipulate those scatter-brained dumbasses to fuck randomly, but I don't want to be exploiting their weakness and immaturity.
Quote:
Humans used to live no longer than 30, our sexual development over the passage of time is reflective of our ancestry. 12yrs old 1000 years ago a child was already considered mature, however today a 12yr old doesnt have to go out and hunt, go to war, etc..
Yet we still follow our ancestry and instinct. It doesn't matter if we live longer now, our bodies and minds develop at the same rate as always. The only difference, as you point out, is that we keep children more ignorant to the world, but this is society's fault, and doesn't affect a consensual relationship.
Quote:
It makes no sense to justify exploitive behavior. If a child is not mature enough for sex, an older mature person should not be allowed by law to take advantage of them.
If anybody is forced, pressured or raped, they should be sentenced to the full extent of the law if anyone is mentally or physically harmed. But if a child is consensual, sexually capable, unharmed and willing for a relationship, then why should the child's partner be put in prison? Our attention should go towards rape and sexual harm, not natural and consensual relationships between younger and older people.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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 fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Innocence [Re: Ravus]
#4173649 - 05/14/05 04:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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No one answered my question, in the other thread, if they would be just as objectionable if it were two twelve year old's having a sexual relationship together. You know, instead of a man/boy relationship, a boy/boy relationship.
I'm curious to hear people's opinions on this, because a lot of the arguements that people are expressing agansit man/boy love, as it has been debated in the other thread, logically also apply agansit a boy/boy relationship.
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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I lost my virginity when I was 19. I got involved in a relationship with the girl. I wasn't ready. Not for sex, and not for a relationship. I thought I was, but I wasn't. I wasn't prepared to deal with the emotional baggage that comes with both those things. But you know what? I probably never would've been if I hadn't made that mistake in the first place. Emotional maturity comes from experience, not age.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
I lost my virginity when I was 19. I got involved in a relationship with the girl. I wasn't ready. Not for sex, and not for a relationship. I thought I was, but I wasn't. I wasn't prepared to deal with the emotional baggage that comes with both those things. But you know what? I probably never would've been if I hadn't made that mistake in the first place. Emotional maturity comes from experience, not age.
Exactly. The people who claim that others are not mentally and emotionally mature enough at a certain age to handle something like a sexual relationship only claim such because they feel they themselves know the "right" and "wrong" way that sexual relationships are to occur, and they fear that these other people will develop different concepts of what a sexual relationship is and is not, or should be and should not be if they are left to discover sexual relationships for themselves, before society programs it into them. 
Sexual expression is an entirely individual thing, this is what complicates this whole issue...
If a really hot, naked, hippie chick started rubbing herself agansit a naked tree and was getting herself off by doing so, is this proper sexual expression? I think a lot of people would find this act of dendrophelia to be hot as hell. 
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Muppet 
Nomadic Jester
Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 28,785
Loc: (523) 327-2836
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Exactly. The people who claim that others are not mentally and emotionally mature enough at a certain age to handle something like a sexual relationship only claim such because they feel they themselves know the "right" and "wrong" way that sexual relationships are to occur, and they fear that these other people will develop different concepts of what a sexual relationship is and is not, or should be and should not be if they are left to discover sexual relationships for themselves, before society programs it into them.
and this is exactly what it all boils down to if you ask me (and not just with sexuality either)
a lot of people out there seem to have this insessive need to 'fix problems' (read: force everything to fit in with whatever askewed perception of the world they've been taught is the way things should be)
they go about trying to solve every little 'problem' they come across (e.g. every little inconsitancy between their views of what the world should be, and what they are actually seeing) and half the time they're not even considering whether or not there's even any legitimate logical reasoning behind whatever it is that they've been taught is 'right'
so we wind up with a buncha idiots making a big ol fuss about consentual relationships simply because there's something about that particular situation that they've been taught was 'wrong' (she's too younge / they're both guys / one of them is black and the other one is white / fucken whatever)
things that don't fit in with their world view are obviously wrong...and therefor must be taken care of
heaven forbid they might actually be wrong about anything
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 Ravings of a Madman
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egghead1
Nakedly Open
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: Innocence [Re: Muppet]
#4173843 - 05/14/05 07:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Exactly.  
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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Innocence [Re: Ravus]
#4173891 - 05/14/05 08:17 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Excellent thread.
Just as women are no longer considered "innocent", the concept applied to young people will errode in the same pattern of progression. There was a time when innocence was regarded as ignorance, and kids were taught the ropes of life at an early age.
People always mention the "consequences" of sex. The consequences that are mentioned are merely social mores, taboos, and preconceptions about sex that will likely be assimilated anyway into more scientific, less irrational views about sex. Sex is good.
It's no surprise that at this current point in history, that sex and children is automatically considered abuse when barely a century ago, solo masturbation was clinically and psychologically considered "self abuse". The liberation of women, kids, homosexuals, pederasts, and pedophiles are all products of the same revolutionary thinking to free humanity from sexual repression that began decades.
As a boy I played with other boys sexually. On a few incidents I engaged in mutual masturbation with a close adult friend of mine. He did not exploit my ignorance, but rather he was in sync with my youthful ignorance. It was from my own desire when I asked him to put his mouth on my penis (my apologies if this threatens your moral rectitude). I enjoyed the sex play, however at any given time it could have been discovered - he would have been tried by society as the "worst of the worst" and I would have forced into traumatizing counselling. And for what? In regard to my friend, sex play was usually secondary. When he wasn't working for my dad, he was hanging out with me. He loved telling me how cute I was. Lord knows how many times I fell asleep in his arms in front of the TV. To this day I still wish to track him down, and continue a simple friendship.
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egghead1
Nakedly Open
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Yes! I too would like to track down my ex-lover for possible friendship. But i hold no hope of this ever happening, she probably beat herself up about it and has undergone councelling and psycotherpay becuase of the projections of society. Id justs like to give her a call and tell her that it was completely fine and natural, and she has nothing to worry about with regard to me and my mental/emotional health. (BTW id just like to poitn out that i was 12 and she was 18 at the time, NOT the other way around!)
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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
Edited by egghead1 (05/14/05 05:28 PM)
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Alan Stone
Corpus
Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Quote:
The consequences that are mentioned are merely social mores, taboos, and preconceptions about sex
In my opinion, this starts when we are told walking around naked is bad. We're beying scammed into being ashamed of our bodies, while we'll have to inhabit them our entire lives !
On innocence:
children are 'innocent' when they are ignorant of social norms. Other types of information have nothing to do with it.
This innocence is lost when they are told they have to get dressed to swim. It is stripped off further when they realise they've been told lies about sex (storks, cauliflowers, whatever) and conclude it must be bad (or their parents wouldn't have lied).
The Garden of Eden was lost when man ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good & evil. Think about it. Who plants/fertilizes that tree nowadays?
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Icelander said:
So what's your point?
The point was made my statements, if you cannot comprehend, that is to your detriment.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
Autonomous said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
So what's your point?
The point was made my statements, if you cannot comprehend, that is to your detriment.
"If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you!"
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