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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!


Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,083
Loc: High pride!
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Silversoul]
#4168423 - 05/12/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
Yes, I already said that you were of age at the time and that you might not regret it. I was just using you as an example because you had changed your sexual persuasion. Image a grown man taking advantage of a 13 year old boy going through a similar phase. It could be extremely damaging to the boy once the phase is over.
I don't imagine it'd be much more damaging than it was for me when I got through that phase. You'd basically face the same kind of shit: intolerance, ridicule, etc. Hell, I was picked on a lot when I was 13, and that had nothing to do with sexuality. I still didn't come out damaged from it.
When you were 19, you were mature enough to be able to make the decision. Kids go through tons of phases. You don't allow kids to make major life decisions like having sex with grown men when they're 13. You don't allow them to get tattoos either.
I'm not being intollarant here. I'm talking about protecting children.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Learyfan]
#4168437 - 05/12/05 09:06 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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I went through tons of phases, too. I just continued going through phases after adolescence as well. Answer me this: would it be less damaging if it was a 15-year-old having sex with a 13-year-old? Why?
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Learyfan]
#4168447 - 05/12/05 09:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Kids - The last form of human property
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dr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: zahudulallah]
#4168509 - 05/12/05 09:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Zahud: While I agree that current laws go too far in protecting "kids" who aren't kids at all, I think you do have to draw the line somewhere. A small child usually is not as rational as an adult, so their parents should have some say over their decisions until they're mature enough.
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Silversoul]
#4168540 - 05/12/05 09:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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I believe children who have not yet entered puberty should be protected by consent legislation. I believe distinctions in gender should also be made in consent legislation. Anything 12 and up I would say is fine. Traditional Man/Boy relationships generally begin when the boy is that age, and the relationship continues until the boy has been seen into manhood. A previous law in the Netherlands spearheaded by Edward Brongersma made it so that adults could have sex with youths of that age and above without prosecution if the child and parents had no desire to persue the matter. This is one of the first examples of case by case legislation.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!


Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,083
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 14 hours, 38 minutes
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Silversoul]
#4168617 - 05/12/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: I went through tons of phases, too. I just continued going through phases after adolescence as well. Answer me this: would it be less damaging if it was a 15-year-old having sex with a 13-year-old? Why?
I don't think it would be any more or less damaging. I don't think most boys that age who go through a gay phase have anyone else to be gay with. Also, older men know how to "work" someone into bed. The younger the person, the more easily they are manipulated. But hey, I'm no expert in this nor have I been victimized, so I could be wrong. Maybe it is ok.
Ziddy: Kids aren't ready to make the decision to have sex with grown men just as they aren't ready to make the decision to tattoo a tribal design on their face.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Learyfan]
#4168643 - 05/12/05 09:56 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, here we disagree again as I believe anyone above puberty should have complete mastery over their bodies, even if that includes tattoos.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!


Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,083
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 14 hours, 38 minutes
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: zahudulallah]
#4168711 - 05/12/05 10:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Should they be able to drunk grain alcohol and smoke crystal meth is the real question.
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Hooty
Reality isRelative

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 2,467
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Learyfan]
#4168845 - 05/12/05 11:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
would it be less damaging if it was a 15-year-old having sex with a 13-year-old?
I believe there's a certain amount of mutual ignorance present in that arrangement that doesn't exist when it's a 39 year old and a 13 year old. God knows I could care less about social accept norms, but I just don't think that situation can truely be completely mutual. The 39 year old has had more life experience to draw from. Two years life experience is just different than 26 year or even 10 years, especially concidering the fact that the years from 13 to say 19 are unique in the type of psychological and physiological change occuring.
Although at the time both might be equally damaging, in retrospect later in life, an individual might be able to say "you know we were both young. He/she may have taken advantage of me, but we were both ignorant to the whole picute" whereas with the 39 year that justification or reasoning isn't valid and might lead to a more lasting emotional scarring and inability to trust people.
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Without love in the dream It will never come true
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pantsboy
I troll because I care.


Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 13,002
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Hooty]
#4168922 - 05/12/05 11:36 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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This thread completely changed over night. Anytime someone brings up Ginsberg's contribution to the counter-culture, it seems to spark a debate on homosexuality. I guess it's because it's such a controversial issue today.
Considering the current political situation and their interference with other countries, I think the current attitude towards homosexual adult/youth relationships isn't very likely to change in the U.S. or any country with close ties to the U.S. However in independent countries stuff like this isn't looked down upon by society, even in many major countries in Europe it isn't nearly the same issue it is in America.
-------------------- Acid doesn't hurt when you're on fire.
"Mushrooms are only similar to penises in their appearance." - LeBron James (2013) ToiletDuk said: "Bus squelching is not to be laughed at."
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger


Registered: 10/27/99
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Hooty]
#4168925 - 05/12/05 11:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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hmmmmmm. when i look at ginsberg, and picture myself as a boy. i cant picture myself feeling any sort of compulsion to engage in sexual activities. in fact, i would fear the haggard curls of gangly black hair adorning his face, it would automatically give me the impression that this man is a hobo or an english teacher.
if he came all testicles to me. i dont know what i would do. if i was 13, would i run? mm i know i would run if i knew then what i know now. but i was pretty naieve. i think to be honest i could see it happening. i can see myself feeling disgusted with myself and poweless. aaaand i can immagine myself as an adult later feeling that and the fear that anyone might ever know. yeah i think the people that oppose NAMbLA are the people who can sypmathize with that situation. or ones who had it happen to them. i mean how do you legally approach a minor for sex? or even a sexual relationship? those kids are still the legal property of their parents. if my daughter was going out with a 30 yr old man when she was 13. i would beat him with coathangers. try dismising that as homophobia. id tell her he must have left her because he was only using her. then i would put a wall around her till they call off the search for the missing man. tie up all the loose ends. and give her money to buy pictures of all her teen heartthrobs.
or i would just call the cops. depends how much bullshit i feellike putting up with.
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Hooty
Reality isRelative

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 2,467
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: pantsboy]
#4168928 - 05/12/05 11:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
This thread completely changed over night. Anytime someone brings up Ginsberg's contribution to the counter-culture, it seems to spark a debate on homosexuality. I guess it's because it's such a controversial issue today.
I didn't think the issue was homosexuality as much as adult/youth sexual relationships.
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Without love in the dream It will never come true
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!


Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,083
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 14 hours, 38 minutes
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: pantsboy]
#4168939 - 05/12/05 11:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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The issue isn't homosexuality, my man. The issue is child abuse.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!


Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,083
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 14 hours, 38 minutes
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Hooty]
#4168955 - 05/12/05 11:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ah, quick shooter. 
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pantsboy
I troll because I care.


Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 13,002
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Learyfan]
#4168968 - 05/12/05 11:49 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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For better or worse, though, so much of Ginsberg's poetry reflects his activism in NAMBLA, like has any read the poem, "Love Comes" from White Shroud. I'm pretty open minded but even I was uncomfortable reading that poem and still he probably many more poems that are even more graphic.
-------------------- Acid doesn't hurt when you're on fire.
"Mushrooms are only similar to penises in their appearance." - LeBron James (2013) ToiletDuk said: "Bus squelching is not to be laughed at."
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Learyfan]
#4169892 - 05/13/05 07:25 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said: The issue isn't homosexuality, my man. The issue is child abuse.
Quick question Learyfan, are all sexual contacts between men and pubescent boys "abusive" to you? In the event a boy is quite willing in a sexual contact, why do you feel the relationship should nonetheless remain oppressed?
Simply put, NAMBLA isn't about legitimizing sex abuse. Since 1977 it has had the same mission, to "End the extreme oppression of Men and Boys in mutually desired relationships". So far only visionaries like Ginsberg, Gore Vidal, and Harry Hay have protested boylove hysteria. The reason they protested it is because consensual relationships do exists, and as it at the moment these relationships are subjected to extreme inquisition. What you and many people ardently view as "abuse", is not viewed as such by loved boys. The only real abuse that happens is when the relationship is discovered, and whether the boy likes it or not, he is subjected to the justice system as a "victim", often forced into counselling he does not want or need. Further hysteria over his adult lover has been the central traumatizing factor to most Boylove relationships that are unsurped by the Sex police.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!


Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,083
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 14 hours, 38 minutes
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: zahudulallah]
#4170745 - 05/13/05 12:14 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, a grown man having sex with anyone under 16 is abusive because anyone under that age should not be able to make these very adult decisions. Are you telling me in all honesty that if your 12 year old son with pubes wanted to have sex with a 40 year old man and then go get a tattoo that covers his whole face, you'd let him do it??
What's so attractive about little kids? Why can't you just date people 16 years and older? I don't understand why this is an issue.
Also, why are pubescent kids ready for sex but not 6 year olds? Why do you draw the line at puberty?
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Learyfan]
#4170775 - 05/13/05 12:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes, a grown man having sex with anyone under 16 is abusive because anyone under that age should not be able to make these very adult decisions. Are you telling me in all honesty that if your 12 year old son with pubes wanted to have sex with a 40 year old man and then go get a tattoo that covers his whole face, you'd let him do it??
I would trust my son. At that age he should be given the civil liberties and freedoms as everyone else. He is no longer a prepubertal child.
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What's so attractive about little kids? Why can't you just date people 16 years and older? I don't understand why this is an issue.
It's an issue because teenage boys and men wish to engage in consensual relationships, however in these times both are subjected to persecution. The boylover is branded an abuser, and the boy is branded as a victim. Both parties face traumatization when a boylove relationship is discovered. Both are held in stigmatizing regard. In the Western tradition one has to go back to the days of the Roman Inquisition to find a parallel situation.
As for the issue of attraction, pedosexual orientation has existed since the dawn of human kind. Most adult males do have pedophilic fantasies from time to time, according to Kinsey and other studies done in Japan, for example. To say that being attracted to kids is irrational, and imply it's some kind of madness (a disease) is ridiculous.
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Also, why are pubescent kids ready for sex but not 6 year olds? Why do you draw the line at puberty?
Puberty is what scientifically defines adulthood.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Neal Cassidy, Ginsberg, the Dead, and you! [Re: Learyfan]
#4170823 - 05/13/05 12:39 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is nothing wrong with loving children and spending quality time with kids other then your own. But love and sex are two different things. Sex is more of a violent act of submission and unification. A child should not be in a situation like that ever.
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