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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
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Nietzsche and the Natural World
    #4162438 - 05/11/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I came across this quote from Nietzsche today, and it raised several questions for me.
"The total character of the world, however, is in all eternity chaos--in the sense not of a lack of necessity but a lack of order, arrangement, form, beauty, wisdom, and whatever names there are for our aesthetic anthropomorphisms...Let us beware of attributing to it heartlessness and unreason or their opposites: it is neither perfect nor beautiful, nor noble, nor does it wish to become any of these things; it does not by any means strive to imitate man... Let us beware of saying that there are laws in nature. There are only necessities: there is nobody who commands, nobody who obeys, nobody who trespasses... But when will we ever be done with our caution and care? When will all these shadows of God cease to darken our minds? When will we complete our de-deification of nature? When may we begin to "naturalize" humanity in terms of a pure, newly discovered, newly redeemed nature?"
My questions are: What would society look like if it was based on necessity? Is it possible or even desirable to eliminate "caution and care"? Is it an accurate description to say that nature is without order?
Any thoughts?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Veritas]
    #4162644 - 05/11/05 06:05 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Nature without order????????????

Have you ever had two cats or cared for gardens?

There is order in chaos. Some can't see it. Oh well............


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4162756 - 05/11/05 06:34 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Nature without order????????????

Have you ever had two cats or cared for gardens?

There is order in chaos. Some can't see it. Oh well............




Weeds and catshit in your bed! chaos! :grin: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Icelander]
    #4162844 - 05/11/05 07:10 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

:lol:

I was thinking more along the lines about how cats establish the dominant leader, yet still play fight and how plants move in predictable growth cycles. Order behind the chaos.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4163301 - 05/11/05 08:52 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

That was a beautiful quote.

"...there is nobody who commands, nobody who obeys, nobody who trespasses..."

The dominant paradigm of modernism is that there is such a dichotomy called "order/disorder" and that order is desireable and disorder is not. This belief is used to justify the existance of coercive institutions tht use extreme violence or the threat of extreme violence to control human society as well as the "natural world." That this dichotomy doesn't exist, and that thier "order" is not more desireable than what they consider "disorder" is important to recognize.

I'll take disorder any day if that disorder moves in the direction of the end of coercive power structures that rely upon the destruction of our inherent wildness of spirit, and the physical wildness of unexploited ecosystems.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #4163324 - 05/11/05 08:55 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Chaos is not the opposite of order. Disorder is the opposite of order. Disorder and order are two sides of the same coin. The coin is called chaos.

Or something like that.


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4163750 - 05/11/05 10:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You seem to have missed the point of the quote. Nietzsche didn't simply say, "Everything is chaos." He said, "...in the sense not of a lack of necessity but a lack of order, arrangement, form, beauty, wisdom, and whatever names there are for our aesthetic anthropomorphisms."

By this, he means that all arrangement in nature, all seeming form and order, are just our aesthetic interpretations of it. Nature follows necessity as shown by its own existence, but the order we perceive it to contain is purely one point of view of it. Without our human interpretation of order, what is nature but chaotic necessity?

Nietzsche has other quotes to clarify this point of view, if I am correct in my interpretation of his philosophy. For example, he said "Because we have for millenia made moral, aesthetic, religious demands on the world, looked upon it with blind desire, passion or fear, and abandoned ourselves to the bad habits of illogical thinking, this world has gradually become so marvelously variegated, frightful, meaningful, soulful, it has acquired color - but we have been the colorists: it is the human intellect that has made appearances appear and transported its erroneous basic conceptions into things."

Quote:

What would society look like if it was based on necessity?




Everything follows natural selection, because natural selection truely is a self-conforming rule. It says that whatever survives continues temporarily and creates more of itself, and that which dies ends and does not create more of itself. From this point of view, society is already based on pure necessity, because it developed its own survival.

Humans in society have the power of foresight though, and we can constantly see the chaos and disorder just over the horizon, the end of society as its necessity will one day fail it.

Quote:

Is it possible or even desirable to eliminate "caution and care"? Is it an accurate description to say that nature is without order?




Is it possible? Who knows whether free will exists, or whether we are just following the whims of natural selection and the laws of the universe, but according to the human definition of free will and possibility, I would say it is. I would also say its an accurate definition that our view of order comes entirely from within, and that the true state of nature is incomprehensible and chaotic, with constant death and rebirth in a fluctuating and temporary system.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Ravus]
    #4163875 - 05/11/05 10:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I get Nietzsche. :lol: I wasn't replying to Nietzsche.

I replied to Veritas's question..........this one as it was written;


"Is it an accurate description to say that nature is without order?
Any thoughts?"

Veritas, not Nietzsche asked that question and asked for our thoughts to that question. I gave him my thoughts, not my interpretation of Nietzsche's thoughts.  :lol:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Veritas]
    #4165294 - 05/12/05 06:24 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I really dig Nietzsche. There, had to say it.

Anyhow, so far as Nietzsche's quote there is concerned.. pass no judgement of value upon nature; it is not good nor evil, nor beautiful, nor magical. It only exists. In that view, a beautiful flower and a rotting carcass are indistinguishable -- a majestic waterfall no different than a vacant wasteland. They exist, with no reason nor purpose.

The 'caution and care' part strikes me as odd -- I can't say for sure, without looking at it in German (not that I really can READ german all that well). I think that phrase may be some of his wordplay.. which does not mean that he doesn't mean 'caution and care', but rather that there may be a cloaked meaning behind the obvious that is more exactly what was intended. Hard to tell, though.. even if I saw it in german I'd have to either get really lucky and remember some of the language, or REALLY lucky and they may rhyme.

Anyhow..

a society based neccessity.. difficult question. I'd liken it to Communism -- not the practice, but the concept. As ideallic as it is impossible. You can base your OWN life out of neccessity, but it requires value judgements to decide what is neccessary. What one considered needed for one's self, another may consider frivolous. Conflict, eventually, ensues. That holds, at least, if you were talking of some sort of commune-like existence.
If not, and you meant neccessity only in the more natural, animalistic sense -- continued existance -- well, that's pretty much what we've got now. Life's only true neccessity is to continue life, and in that I would consider humanity a success thus far.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Ravus]
    #4167107 - 05/12/05 05:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Ravus, thanks for explaining that. I was having a little trouble with the concepts. Now I understand it well enough to think about it. :thumbup:

Jiggy, veritas is not a guy. :blush: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Icelander]
    #4167177 - 05/12/05 06:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

How would I know? My default is set at he since like 96% of the writers here are male.

Sorry Veritas!!!!! :blush: I'm female too and everyone writes he instead of she until they catch it in a post and make note.

Thanks for making a note on veritis's she status ice! :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Icelander]
    #4167339 - 05/12/05 06:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So glad you noticed!!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Veritas]
    #4167382 - 05/12/05 06:42 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Oh I noticed baby! :heart: :heart: You're awesome. :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Registered: 02/28/05
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Ravus]
    #4167514 - 05/12/05 07:16 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Everything follows natural selection, because natural selection truely is a self-conforming rule. It says that whatever survives continues temporarily and creates more of itself, and that which dies ends and does not create more of itself. From this point of view, society is already based on pure necessity, because it developed its own survival.



.
.
Nature can be summed up as "Chaotic Balance".... 
Things are as they were meant to be, in nature, WE BE....    :heart:

Blessings,

:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Icelander]
    #4167671 - 05/12/05 08:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"When may we begin to "naturalize" humanity in terms of a pure, newly discovered, newly redeemed nature?"

nietzsche says humanity is part of nature. let's stop looking at nature through our human eyes. let's look at humanity through the eyes of nature. (ravus calls this survival of the fittest)

by throwing off the order that we give nature, we can take on the order that nature gives us: strength, cheerfulness etc. all part of nietzsche's philosophy

nature is without order, if by order you mean an evaluative concept (like beauty). nature is with order, if by order you mean survival of the fittest (in ravus' words). for nietzsche this is the philosophy of power, etc.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Veritas]
    #11722612 - 12/26/09 08:34 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I came across this quote from Nietzsche today, and it raised several questions for me. 
"The total character of the world, however, is in all eternity chaos--in the sense not of a lack of necessity but a lack of order, arrangement, form, beauty, wisdom, and whatever names there are for our aesthetic anthropomorphisms...Let us beware of attributing to it heartlessness and unreason or their opposites: it is neither perfect nor beautiful, nor noble, nor does it wish to become any of these things; it does not by any means strive to imitate man... Let us beware of saying that there are laws in nature. There are only necessities: there is nobody who commands, nobody who obeys, nobody who trespasses... But when will we ever be done with our caution and care? When will all these shadows of God cease to darken our minds? When will we complete our de-deification of nature? When may we begin to "naturalize" humanity in terms of a pure, newly discovered, newly redeemed nature?"
My questions are: What would society look like if it was based on necessity?  Is it possible or even desirable to eliminate "caution and care"?  Is it an accurate description to say that nature is without order?
Any thoughts?




I liked that, I wonder what it was from, I am just gonna guess The Will To Power ... it sounds VERY Spinozian :thumbup:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: andrewss]
    #11722658 - 12/26/09 08:50 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Gravedigging:nono:

I do miss the good ol daze. :fearandloathing:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Icelander]
    #11722696 - 12/26/09 09:00 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: the good ole days eh...


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Veritas]
    #11722812 - 12/26/09 09:25 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
My questions are: What would society look like if it was based on necessity?


Necessity for what?



Quote:

Veritas said:
Is it possible or even desirable to eliminate "caution and care"?


I personally don't think so, because caution and care is aids in survival.



Quote:

Veritas said:
Is it an accurate description to say that nature is without order?


I'm not too sure what you mean when you say "without order", but I think that it can be explained mathematically; maybe the mathematical explanation for nature is the "order"? :justdontknow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Nietzsche and the Natural World [Re: Poid]
    #11722822 - 12/26/09 09:27 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe she will actually come back and take a gander at your very poid'ish questions :smirk: :crazy2: :stoned:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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