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OfflinePhluck
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Re: A Request [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4161521 - 05/11/05 10:58 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)


the caste system which is probably headed back this way for your descendents in a century soon to come.


Gimme a break. Dozens of countries have gone in and out of much more brutal dictatorships than anything we're seeing, but as soon as the US gets slightly restrictive (with much more vocal objection than say, Russia, China, etc...) the world is coming to an end.

The classes in the US already intermingle far more than in England, whose class differences have historically been pretty extreme. I don't know where the hell you're getting the idea that we're headed for something as broad and complex as a caste system.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineDoom
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Registered: 11/23/04
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Re: A Request [Re: Phluck]
    #4161608 - 05/11/05 11:27 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Capitalism is hell bent to destroy the earth in its greed for power money and control

Capitalism isnt a unified conscious entity, it is a system of exchange. And actually, the USSR created far worse damaging waste than the USA has, so even on a material level capitalism is more desirable. Capitalism is infinitly malleable, it has no intrinsic culture nor does it impose one set cluster of relations upon the human race. Potatoe chips today, soy chips tomorrow.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: A Request [Re: Doom]
    #4161611 - 05/11/05 11:28 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Request [Re: Doom]
    #4161786 - 05/11/05 12:30 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Doom said:
Capitalism is hell bent to destroy the earth in its greed for power money and control

Capitalism isnt a unified conscious entity, it is a system of exchange. And actually, the USSR created far worse damaging waste than the USA has, so even on a material level capitalism is more desirable. Capitalism is infinitly malleable, it has no intrinsic culture nor does it impose one set cluster of relations upon the human race. Potatoe chips today, soy chips tomorrow.




You are correct. I oversteped a little there, and my point would be better applyed to human nature than to any particular system in use.  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Re: A Request [Re: Icelander]
    #4161796 - 05/11/05 12:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Can it be said that capitalism, by its very nature, promotes consumption? No longer are we citizens, but consumers. :frown: Gone are the days of frugality and conservation, to the point where Bush encouraged after 9/11 for consumers to consume even more. As long as capitalism is founded on the all-mighty dollar, I cannot buy into it.

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OfflineDoom
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Re: A Request [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4161821 - 05/11/05 12:44 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

wrong, we are still citizens. Frugality? I think you mean inability.

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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: A Request [Re: Doom]
    #4161833 - 05/11/05 12:48 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I mean drawing the line between needs and wants as tightly as possible.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: A Request [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4161835 - 05/11/05 12:49 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Gone are the days of frugality and conservation


...and which days were those, exactly? The depression? The world wars? Do you honestly believe overconsumption was a recent invention?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineDoom
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Re: A Request [Re: Phluck]
    #4161842 - 05/11/05 12:51 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

what exactly is your problem with consumerism phoenix?

Its all a very slight matter of which products you choose, packaged existentialism if you will....

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Request [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4161866 - 05/11/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
Can it be said that capitalism, by its very nature, promotes consumption? No longer are we citizens, but consumers. :frown: Gone are the days of frugality and conservation, to the point where Bush encouraged after 9/11 for consumers to consume even more. As long as capitalism is founded on the all-mighty dollar, I cannot buy into it.




Humans have always been consumers. Maybe there is some truth to what Doom says about fugality, but not completely. Most are frugal out of fear rather than higher motives. Conservation has always taken a back seat and always may. The problem may be due more to overpopulation and security driven human nature than to capitalism, or any system. 

When have we ever been just "citizens". I don't see it anywhere down the line in either direction.

Fear is the bottom line. Put it under any system you want and you will get the same results in degree to the amount of fear. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: A Request [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4162205 - 05/11/05 02:36 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
I mean drawing the line between needs and wants as tightly as possible.




Why would anyone do that as a way of life? Like phluck said, living on a needs only basis is reminiscent of the great depression.

lack mentality doesn't serve especially when there is more free abundance then we know what to do with or how to tap and harness.

Simplicity or moderation is relative. Some people think they need 500 pairs of shoes. Some people think they need a second home in the Hampton's. Some people like Christian Scientists think they don't need a dentist or doctor. Maybe they don't but there teeth rot and fall out and their broken bones heal all screwy. (Had some for neighbors as a kid)

If people would just come together to co-operate and innovate and replenish and recycle, we all could be living a grand life full of wants being full filled.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: A Request [Re: Doom]
    #4162240 - 05/11/05 02:47 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"exactly icelander and egghead, you religous types are mere proponents of a ancient slave mentality."

That is awesome. You twisted my words in a thoroughly entertaining fashion.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: A Request [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4162414 - 05/11/05 03:16 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Here is a good description of how Buddhism has been used for persecution just as surely as any other organized religion.

"Each follower of Hinduism belonged to one of the thousands of Jats (communities) that existed in India. The Jats were grouped into four Varna (social castes), plus a fifth group called the "untouchables." A person's Jat determined the range of jobs or professions from which they could choose. Marriages normally took place within the same Jat. There were rules that prohibited persons of different groups from eating, drinking or even smoking with each other. The system became rigid, so that a person was generally born into the Jat and Varna of their parents, and died in the same group. 1 "The caste system splits up society into a multitude of little communities, for every caste, and almost every local unit of a caste, has its own peculiar customs and internal regulations." 2 The Rigveda defined four castes. In decreasing status, they are normally:
bullet Brahmins (the priests and academics)
bullet Kshatriyas (rulers, military)
bullet Vaishyas (farmers, landlords, and merchants)
bullet Sudras (peasants, servants, and workers in non-polluting jobs)."


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: A Request [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4162535 - 05/11/05 03:39 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think religions have nothing, really, to redeem them. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/10/99
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Re: A Request [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4162552 - 05/11/05 03:45 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Hinduism isn't Buddhism.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: A Request [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4162555 - 05/11/05 03:46 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Here is a good description of how Buddhism has been used for persecution just as surely as any other organized religion.

"Each follower of Hinduism belonged to one of the thousands of Jats (communities) that existed in India. The Jats were grouped into four Varna (social castes), plus a fifth group called the "untouchables." A person's Jat determined the range of jobs or professions from which they could choose. Marriages normally took place within the same Jat. There were rules that prohibited persons of different groups from eating, drinking or even smoking with each other. The system became rigid, so that a person was generally born into the Jat and Varna of their parents, and died in the same group. 1 "The caste system splits up society into a multitude of little communities, for every caste, and almost every local unit of a caste, has its own peculiar customs and internal regulations." 2 The Rigveda defined four castes. In decreasing status, they are normally:
bullet Brahmins (the priests and academics)
bullet Kshatriyas (rulers, military)
bullet Vaishyas (farmers, landlords, and merchants)
bullet Sudras (peasants, servants, and workers in non-polluting jobs)."




Umm thats Hinduism not Buddhism.  :lol:

Im pretty sure that the Buddha was totally against the whole caste system in India.

I found this link which backs this up. click to learn

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/lifebuddha/2_24lbud.htm


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (05/11/05 04:18 PM)

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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: A Request [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4163178 - 05/11/05 06:21 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

yeah, that is not Buddhism...

do you even know the origins of the caste system? the system was a relic from when the Aryans ruled over the Indus-River Valley - a period that predated the development of Hinduism (particularly what we now know as "hinduism") by a thousand years.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: A Request [Re: Phluck]
    #4164108 - 05/11/05 09:53 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The Hindu and Buddhist schools of thought were separate for many years, but by the 8th century they had merged. While Buddhism was originally a revolt against earlier Hinduism it later absorbed many of it's customs and beliefs in India. Class based persecution occurred in other Buddhist countries as well. Japan had an untouchable class, and even the Tibetans held butchers and soldiers as just barely human due to the fact that they dealt in flesh which was considered crude. In his autobiography "Freedom in Exile" the Dali Lama noted that this was one of his nation's greatest mistakes, and eventually contributed to the Chinese conquest of Tibet. The fact that soldiers were held in such low esteem led to them having a weak and ineffectual army that could not defend the borders. I am not attacking eastern schools of thought, but I am just pointing out that they hold NO superiority over western thought in any practical or moral fashion.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineDoom
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Re: A Request [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4165691 - 05/12/05 08:44 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Japan was never actually truly buddhist, and the only realy buddhists were often renegade, revolutionary farmers who worked together with the monks to stay free from the oppressive shogunal rice taxes.

The buddhism in Japan that was for a time adopted by the samurai class was a very stripped down form, they actually rejected almost every single precept, and in its hayday, combined buddhist worship with drinking, whoring and gambling in the shrines of tokugawa tokyo.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: A Request [Re: Doom]
    #4167076 - 05/12/05 03:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Did Zen not come to flower in Japan?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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