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OfflineNomad
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Registered: 04/30/02
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On God
    #4156405 - 05/10/05 08:43 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Suppose that God exists, and according to His judgement, some beings enter heaven, while others plummet into hell. Then He does not possess unconditional love, for His love does not extend to sinners.

This is certainly true if hell is eternal. If there is only purgatory - a temporary state of being - then the argument becomes slightly more complicated, since one may argue that God sends sinners into hell as an expression of His unconditional love, to cleanse them of their evil deeds, which is presumably in their own best interest. However, why exactly would that be in their own interest? Surely, only if there exists a state of being even worse than purgatory - namely, eternal hell. That saves the argument. Isn't that great?

Since such a God does not possess unconditional love, He cannot be completely good. Yet He would still be on the good side of things, better than neutral. To see this, consider what a neutral God would be like. A neutral God would send 50% of good people into heaven, 50% of good people into hell, 50% of evil people into hell, and 50% of evil people into heaven. A God which sends all good people into heaven and all evil people into hell is therefore better than neutral. He is just not completely good, for then He would send everyone into heaven, regardless of their moral status. On the scale where 1 is completely good and 10 is completely evil, I would classify such a being as 3 or 4.

The most evil being in the universe is a God which sends everyone into hell, be they good or evil. That is a clear 10.

What about a God which sends all the good people into hell, and all the evil people into heaven? That's quite evil, in my opinion. Probably 9. But then again, maybe I am prejudiced towards the Good. If, as I claimed, a God which sends all good people into heaven and all evil people into hell is 3 or 4, then symmetrical reasoning suggests that this guy would be 6 or 7, not 9.

Anyway, why pray to a God which is not perfectly good?

I know that unconditional love exists, that it is a spiritual quality which can be practiced, and that there were, are, and always will be humans who have perfected this quality, unconditional love. So either humans can possess spiritual qualities which God does not, or God is not responsible for heaven and hell. In that case, He may still be a mighty being within the universe, but He would be subject to natural laws beyond his control - and why pray to a God which is not all-powerful?

To send any being into hell, whether good or evil, is an expression of hate. Hate can never have any positive consequences. This is a purely inductive argument: I do not remember one single incident in my share of personal experience where hate has produced anything different from hate, nor can I come up with any event in human history where that was the case. And in the Dhammapada, it says:

"Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. "

The key in this verse is the expression non-hatred. The second sentence is often translated as: "By love alone is hatred appeased." This, however, is linguistically and logically wrong. For one may conquer hate through love, but one may also conquer it with almost anything else - anything except hate, indeed.

Compassion, joy, and equanimity are equally opposed to hate, similar to love. Furthermore, one may conquer hate with humor, or even cold logic, or just ignore it and walk away, or one may be patient and wait until hate dissolves, or one may take refuge in anything which provides enough inspiration to keep hate away. But hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world.

I left this place some time ago with a post which was kind of hateful (although the flame was well-done in style). But there was hatred present, and it does not matter whether the censorship of Swami was justified or not, or whether it was inspired by hate or not - regardless of all these conditions, hate is unconditionally wrong.

I therefore honestly apologize to those whom I have attacked.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: On God [Re: Nomad]
    #4156415 - 05/10/05 08:53 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

this god is a moral relativist, to him there is no good and bad, he invented it for man only, there is no law that judges him, he can be a tyran or worse than devil, and it would not make any difference


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinescribble
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Registered: 04/05/05
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Re: On God [Re: Nomad]
    #4156426 - 05/10/05 09:02 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Suppose that God exists, and according to His judgment, some beings enter heaven, while others plummet into hell. Then He does not possess unconditional love, for His love does not extend to sinners.

This is certainly true if hell is eternal.

I don't really follow any religion but I think the bible or something says:
1. god wants everyone in heaven, but it's your sins that keep you out (your sins not god)
2. some religions say that you can complete hell and after your done you'll get a second chance at heaven. I also think something is said about the end of the world and those in hell getting a second chance.

hmmm... I should have looked into this again before I tried arguing off memory


--------------------
Mahayana Buddhist tradition tells how Buddha lived on one hemp seed a day.
This was enough to sustain him during the six steps of asceticism leading to his Enlightenment.
In recent centuries, higher doses have been favoured.


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Offlineslaphappy
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Registered: 10/29/04
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Re: On God [Re: scribble]
    #4156534 - 05/10/05 09:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Suppose I was only kidding. Something has to produce some god damn adrenaline in your fucking numb race...

I was wrong, so what!? Atleast you have bungeejumping and rollercosters.


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: On God [Re: slaphappy]
    #4156556 - 05/10/05 10:10 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

God is dead. Long live God. :mushroom2:

Hey! this is post 666, I am the antichrist. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/10/05 10:11 AM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: On God [Re: Icelander]
    #4156567 - 05/10/05 10:14 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

God is not dead because he never "lived" in the first place


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: On God [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156617 - 05/10/05 10:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Now what I really want to know is why do english spoken people still use archaic english for Bible talk? Words like Thy, Ye, Behold etc.
Why isn't the bible translated into modern english?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: On God [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156636 - 05/10/05 10:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why isn't the bible translated into modern english?




I have read a version of the NT that was translated into modern English, so I know a version exists.

Quote:

Suppose that God exists, and according to His judgement, some beings enter heaven, while others plummet into hell. Then He does not possess unconditional love, for His love does not extend to sinners.




Does a parent lose love for their child when they spank a child for doing something dangerous? Punishment does not have to negate love.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleStarchild
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 77
Re: On God [Re: Nomad]
    #4156696 - 05/10/05 10:53 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nomad said:
Suppose that God exists, and according to His judgement, some beings enter heaven, while others plummet into hell. Then He does not possess unconditional love, for His love does not extend to sinners.

This is certainly true if hell is eternal. If there is only purgatory - a temporary state of being - then the argument becomes slightly more complicated, since one may argue that God sends sinners into hell as an expression of His unconditional love, to cleanse them of their evil deeds, which is presumably in their own best interest. However, why exactly would that be in their own interest? Surely, only if there exists a state of being even worse than purgatory - namely, eternal hell. That saves the argument. Isn't that great?

Since such a God does not possess unconditional love, He cannot be completely good. Yet He would still be on the good side of things, better than neutral. To see this, consider what a neutral God would be like. A neutral God would send 50% of good people into heaven, 50% of good people into hell, 50% of evil people into hell, and 50% of evil people into heaven. A God which sends all good people into heaven and all evil people into hell is therefore better than neutral. He is just not completely good, for then He would send everyone into heaven, regardless of their moral status. On the scale where 1 is completely good and 10 is completely evil, I would classify such a being as 3 or 4.




This is slightly off-topic, but I notice that you are differentiating between "good" people and "evil" people. I think this is an interesting concept. If there is a God, and he created everyone...how can the evil people be responsible for being evil? Why are the good people lauded for being so good? Isn't everyone's fate determined by God? Or am I missing something?


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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Offlineslaphappy
Its just me
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Re: On God [Re: slaphappy]
    #4156698 - 05/10/05 10:54 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The child is perfectly able to learn from dangerous activities without being spanked. Thats all I have to say.


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: On God [Re: slaphappy]
    #4156737 - 05/10/05 11:01 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The child is perfectly able to learn from dangerous activities without being spanked. Thats all I have to say.




Spare the rod, spoil the child. For me, just the threat was enough... I was never beaten and rarely spanked and if I had decided to have children, I would have used the same methodology that my parents used. You didn't answer the question... why must punishment negate love?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: On God [Re: Starchild]
    #4156741 - 05/10/05 11:02 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Starchild said:
Quote:

Nomad said:
Suppose that God exists, and according to His judgement, some beings enter heaven, while others plummet into hell. Then He does not possess unconditional love, for His love does not extend to sinners.

This is certainly true if hell is eternal. If there is only purgatory - a temporary state of being - then the argument becomes slightly more complicated, since one may argue that God sends sinners into hell as an expression of His unconditional love, to cleanse them of their evil deeds, which is presumably in their own best interest. However, why exactly would that be in their own interest? Surely, only if there exists a state of being even worse than purgatory - namely, eternal hell. That saves the argument. Isn't that great?

Since such a God does not possess unconditional love, He cannot be completely good. Yet He would still be on the good side of things, better than neutral. To see this, consider what a neutral God would be like. A neutral God would send 50% of good people into heaven, 50% of good people into hell, 50% of evil people into hell, and 50% of evil people into heaven. A God which sends all good people into heaven and all evil people into hell is therefore better than neutral. He is just not completely good, for then He would send everyone into heaven, regardless of their moral status. On the scale where 1 is completely good and 10 is completely evil, I would classify such a being as 3 or 4.




This is slightly off-topic, but I notice that you are differentiating between "good" people and "evil" people. I think this is an interesting concept. If there is a God, and he created everyone...how can the evil people be responsible for being evil? Why are the good people lauded for being so good? Isn't everyone's fate determined by God? Or am I missing something?




god is not omnipotent, modern man was created through long history of trial and error and experimenting


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleStarchild
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 77
Re: On God [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156759 - 05/10/05 11:10 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

OK, I can see that point of view...but why should he banish his imperfect trial-humans to hell if it was HIS mistake that caused them to be imperfect? See what I mean? It's not their fault....so why would they be punished OR rewarded for what they've done?


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: On God [Re: Starchild]
    #4156783 - 05/10/05 11:19 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

> but why should he banish his imperfect trial-humans to hell if it was HIS mistake that caused them to be imperfect?

What if hell is simply duality and heaven is a return to oneness with ...?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: On God [Re: Starchild]
    #4156789 - 05/10/05 11:19 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well first of all, the Bible states for the most part that those good get to live in heaven, and those who are not chosen as good simply die. Hell is mentioned very rarely, and is mostly medival church propaganda. The original idea is that before Jesus everyone simply died without heaven and afterlife, they were just biological beings, with soul, but mortal soul, and Jesus "prepared a place" in the world where he is going to for all that accept his teachings of love and compassion.

such a selection is a simple example of natural selection only the goal is not strenght but "goodness"
So god seeds life in the soil and takes fruit of those "plants" he likes, as a farmer takes fruit which is not rotten.

Death is not a punishment in this case, it is a natural state in which people as biological beings end up, unless god choses otherwise.

God seems to be unable to make perfect human beings, but he tries to do it through this selection, hence the great flood, destruction of cities

Humanity is a tree, and god is a farmer, he cuts the rotten branches he doesn't like and takes fruit and seed that is healthy

Seems this god is a great follower of natural laws


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleStarchild
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Registered: 04/22/05
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Re: On God [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156811 - 05/10/05 11:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

...or else he's in WAY over his head here  :laugh:


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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OfflineNomad
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Registered: 04/30/02
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Re: On God [Re: Seuss]
    #4157476 - 05/10/05 02:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Does a parent lose love for their child when they spank a child for doing something dangerous?

The analogy refers to the purgatory argument, that God punishes evil people to help them in the long run. I already refuted that in my original post.

In the case of the parent spanking a child, in that moment, within the consciousness of the parent, there is hate present - or anger, at least. It seems to me that there cannot be love present when a violent action is done; there may only be a conceptual framework present which justifies the action as love in the long run.

This argument is based on direct examination of personal experience. In other words, if you can beat someone without hate or anger being present (and the beating must be done for reasons of punishment, not as a joke or something), then you are right. Otherwise, you are wrong. That's a simple test.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: On God [Re: Nomad]
    #4157596 - 05/10/05 03:06 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

but you are still using a concept of hell that has been more or less invented by church and is not written in bible, you can find many references in the bible about kingdom of heaven and total mental death without hell


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineDoom
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Re: On God [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4157607 - 05/10/05 03:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

hell is a very real place that exists in the human psyche. Just ask Raskalnikov.


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OfflineNomad
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Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
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Re: On God [Re: Starchild]
    #4157628 - 05/10/05 03:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This is slightly off-topic, but I notice that you are differentiating between "good" people and "evil" people. I think this is an interesting concept. If there is a God, and he created everyone...how can the evil people be responsible for being evil? Why are the good people lauded for being so good? Isn't everyone's fate determined by God?

Well, from my perspective, determinism doesn't change the fact that I can judge someone as good or evil. Free will is not necessary in order for someone to be evil. Animals provide a good example for that; there are animals which I would characterize as good, like the squirrel, while others are evil. The most extreme cases are to be found among dinosaurs - the murderous Velociraptor beasts with their blood-dripping razor claws seem to be very, very evil, while the huge, plant-eating, good natured Brontosaurus is perfectly good. At least that's what I have gathered from the Jurassic Park movies.

Anyway, that's not a christian concept. Therefore...

Or am I missing something?

Not at all. It is an interesting question why evil people are to be punished, when they were created by an omnipotent God in the first place.

Christianity is like a zen koan - in how many self-defeating concepts can you believe at the same time?


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