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Invisiblesoochi
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Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,420
Loc: The Richest County
Re: vegans [Re: cubicidal]
    #4335432 - 06/25/05 09:20 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

of course we are, look how we've evolved to walk on two feet, the position of our eyes and the the length of our arms, our use of tools. Don't you watch the discovery channel?

I guess the point of the argument was that vegans feel that once they go vegan they have to force their will upon everyone else. I call it the Lisa Simpson Syndrome. Fact is, meat producers (and every other agricultural producer) play a big role in our economy; it's just a shame that we rely too much on large scale factory farming where quality takes a back seat to quantity. Use of growth hormones, antibiotics; and the practice of animal recycling contributing to the advent of mad cow and hoof & mouth disease. My take on it is that if you're going to eat meat, eat good meat, preferably locally raised, organic and hormone free. Yes it's more expensive, but the more we buy the cheaper it will become, and the small family farms that raise it will get more support from the government in terms of tax breaks and such, again, helping drive down the price.


--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!

Edited by soochi (06/25/05 09:53 AM)

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Offlinecubicidal
Stranger
Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 217
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: vegans [Re: soochi]
    #4335526 - 06/25/05 10:15 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

of course we are, look how we've evolved to walk on two feet, the position of our eyes and the the length of our arms, our use of tools.




If you believe yourself to be a natural predator, I'd like to see you chase down a deer and kill it with your bare hands.

Thousands of years of tool and weapon use does not constitute being evolved around their use. You need a lot longer than that.

Quote:

Don't you watch the discovery channel?




I don't watch TV, I read...

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OfflineBirdonawire
Always inlearning mode.

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 6
Loc: PA.
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: vegans [Re: cubicidal]
    #4349898 - 06/29/05 08:50 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

This has some pretty good input on some things, meat... verses vegatarian.

It is some good reading for whom ever is interested in it.

Protein in the vegan diet


Edited to add this... Please check it out.. The Meatrix

Edited by Birdonawire (06/29/05 09:00 AM)

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Invisiblesoochi
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Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,420
Loc: The Richest County
Re: vegans [Re: cubicidal]
    #4349912 - 06/29/05 08:59 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I wont chase it, I'll trap it.

so you're saying the discovery channel is a sham?


--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!

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OfflineBirdonawire
Always inlearning mode.

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 6
Loc: PA.
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: vegans [Re: Birdonawire]
    #4350641 - 06/29/05 01:01 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I forgot to also post this book...it's very good, if anyone is interested in it.

Recipes for a Small Planet


--------------------
Tail wagging happy.

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Offlinecubicidal
Stranger
Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 217
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: vegans [Re: Birdonawire]
    #4354700 - 06/30/05 08:50 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm saying that depending on TV for information is a real bad idea. Books and thinking go a LOT farther. TV is just media. Even the Discovery Channel is still just entertainment media.

The human ability to hunt is not something that there's been time to adjust for evolutionarily. The most I can imagine having had happened is humans becoming slightly more intelligent, but even that's up for debate. Effects on digestion and metabolism are surely nonexistent. Humans are naturally scavengers as far as meat consumption is concerned - few can run faster than 15MPH and our deadliest weapons are our fists. Not hunting traits!

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Invisiblespiffo
Stranger

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 933
Re: vegans [Re: cubicidal]
    #4354854 - 06/30/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

reading a book about something is the same as watching a doco...its all another point of view
the nat geo was a magazine before cable

why do humans have canines and not just molars?


--------------------
Check my trade rating for hanky and his pension rorting boyfriend grizz before you get ripped off...he gets my rating deleted because he doesn't like the truth but in my ratings pile the truth reigns supreme

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Offlinecubicidal
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Registered: 03/23/05
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Re: vegans [Re: spiffo]
    #4361356 - 07/01/05 09:45 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

No, reading a book does give you a far more complete picture. Take the transcript of a Discovery Channel episode and compare it to a textbook.

Those exist because of human's natural scavenging abilities. Humans sustained themselves mostly off of plants etc., but occasionally tore into a dead carcass after predatory animals were done with it. Humans probably cracked open the bones and ate the marrows, a part the animals never were able to touch.

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Invisiblespiffo
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Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 933
Re: vegans [Re: cubicidal]
    #4365308 - 07/03/05 01:55 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

my canines are blunt from cracking open the old beers before screwtops were invented :grin:


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Check my trade rating for hanky and his pension rorting boyfriend grizz before you get ripped off...he gets my rating deleted because he doesn't like the truth but in my ratings pile the truth reigns supreme

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
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Re: vegans [Re: fung_us_among_us]
    #4365842 - 07/03/05 08:13 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fung_us_among_us said:
daussaulit- the protien that is carcinogenic and primarily found in cow milk is called casein. it's in tons of other foods we eat too, but not naturally.




it's not uncommon to find that the largest source of health problems comes from
processed foods, chrons disease for instance is on the rise because of the lack
of beneficial microbes and parasites that are in unprocessed foods...

before you make a drastic jump to veganism you should really weigh all the facts
as a vegan the most popular source of protien is soy products... this miracle
food really makes survival quite miraculous....

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/#
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm

there is a great deal of bullshit from both sides, I for one do eat meat and for
almost 5 years it was virtualy the only food I was eating, small amounts of
bread and veggies included but it was very minimal, my health never suffered
during that time and I also never had any sort of illnesses, no colds/flu
and after a few checkups my cholesterol and triglicerides were at normal levels

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OfflineAaladorn
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Re: vegans [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #4395239 - 07/12/05 08:36 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

MEAT IS SO FUCKING GOOD, I LOVE BURGERS!

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InvisiblePsychoChipmunk
Small, Furry, Disturbed

Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 389
Loc: A hole in your back yard
Re: vegans [Re: cubicidal]
    #4405640 - 07/14/05 08:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

cubicidal said:
No, reading a book does give you a far more complete picture.

Humans probably cracked open the bones and ate the marrows, a part the animals never were able to touch.




A text book is still just the best guesses or theories supported by circumstantial evidence. I mean, do your texts contain any first person accounts of what early man did day to day? Chimps have been observed hunting smaller monkeys and eating them. Its also questionable whether man would have survived savaging dead flesh. I mean... ever hear of food poisoning? Even cooking meat that has begun to rot is very risky due to bacterial entero/exotoxin production.

Second... Obviously you've never seen a dog with a nice bone. My 22 pound terrier (god rest his soul) was capable of consuming cow knuckle bones completely, as well as cracking open bones from bbq ribs and getting at the marrow inside.

Do you think a person could eat a steak that had been sitting in the dirt for a day or two and not get sick? Did your textbooks tell you that animals can't crack open bones?

I'll grant you, don't believe everything you see on TV. But don't believe everything you read, either.


--------------------
\m/

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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
Re: vegans [Re: PsychoChipmunk]
    #4407604 - 07/15/05 12:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Are you fucking kidding me.... are you seriously arguing food poisoning regarding a scavanger species? Read a fucking book dude.

Here let me correct it for you...

Quote:

I mean... ever hear of food poisoning? Even cooking meat that has begun to rot is very risky due to bacterial entero/exotoxin production for a modern human digestive system.



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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: vegans [Re: YidakiMan]
    #4407652 - 07/15/05 12:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Oh yea, I'll give you guys something else. There was another group, say, about 90 years ago that argued that humans purpose was their design and no more. Do you know what they argued against? Flying. Yup, if man were designed to fly we would have been born with wings. How fucking rediculous is that. No more or less rediculous than the argument in this thread.

Design does not equal purpose.

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: vegans [Re: YidakiMan]
    #4408706 - 07/15/05 05:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I feel bad for soy eaters. Soy is not something you want to take if you want normal hormone action. If you want to look like the androgenous beast reminiscient of the late akenaten, then go for it.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Offlinemattymonkey
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Re: vegans [Re: fung_us_among_us]
    #4408907 - 07/15/05 05:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

for all you vegans out there who have sworn off soy ( i know we have!)

the best source of protien you can get is MUSHROOMS :smile: yes thats right, oysters, shitakes, maitake.. they're all great and loaded with protein...

sprouted legumes would probably be good too, but i like my fungus :smile:

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InvisiblePsychoChipmunk
Small, Furry, Disturbed

Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 389
Loc: A hole in your back yard
Re: vegans [Re: YidakiMan]
    #4409404 - 07/15/05 08:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

YidakiMan said:
Are you fucking kidding me.... are you seriously arguing food poisoning regarding a scavanger species? Read a fucking book dude.

Here let me correct it for you...

Quote:

I mean... ever hear of food poisoning? Even cooking meat that has begun to rot is very risky due to bacterial entero/exotoxin production for a modern human digestive system.







Arguing, perhaps... lets look at it as more of a proposal:

If early homo sapiens were capable of producing antibodies to opsonize pathogenic bodies (bacteria / toxins) for phagocytosis where did this ability come from? Was it intrinsic, with genes that coded for the production of such agents? If so, why did this very useful bit of gene expression wink out?

One could argue that the ability to opsonize foreign agents is an example of acquired immunity. This is unlikely: Many individuals would get very sick and/or die after consuming bad meat. As an intelligent species one would think early homo sapiens would put two and two together. As such, even if an individual was lucky enough to survive AND have sufficient immune stimulation to offer some protection, what are the chances they'd care to repeat the experience? Even then, acquired immunity is not passed on in the genes. A mother's IgG antibodies are present in a child's body at birth, but the half life of these antibodies is only 25 days at best. A mother's colostrum also provides IgA to the infant, but again, its half life of 5 days prevents any long term protection.

Numerous bacteria produce all sorts of nasty proteins and enzymes. M protein allows some strep to adhere to the inhospitable mucus of, lets say the pharynx (well clear of the digestive tract.) Enzymes such as hyaluronidase break down connective tissues allowing these invaders to easily enter and spread through tissue. Streptolysin likewise breaks down any blood clots it might encounter as the body attempts to defend itself. Even if the acid of the stomach killed the bacteria and denatured any toxins, the route of entry is still very vulnerable.

Sure, IgA normally works to defend the body in such areas, but antibodies are fairly specific in what they bind to. If early man had IgA with sufficient avidity and affinity for all the different nasties he ate, where did they come from? If they were always there, where did they go?

I'm not arguing that its not possible that man didn't scavenge. We can agree that man is definitely not a strict carnivore. This being the case, where would the ability to handle meat, let alone meat loaded with hostile agents come from? I just think its unlikely that early man exclusively obtained meat by foraging for "dead flesh" as has been put forth earlier.

As for "read(ing) a fucking book," I have read plenty. Man as a scavenger species? Could be. You know my thoughts, but: I wasn't there. I have a feeling that even if I read all the books out there on early man's eating habits, none of the authors could verify their assertions by direct observation. Is there any physical evidence? Is there any way to know the origin of the bones in early man's refuse heaps? Not that I know of. So just because it's in a book, speculation becomes fact...

That's the point I'm really trying to make here. Speculation and some anthropologist's best guesses being tossed around as fact. Pardon the pun, but "Where's the beef?"

As an aside, this hasn't been intended as an attack on vegetarianism or veganism. Far from it. If you've got a lifestyle that works for you that's awesome and I respect your discipline.

Sources cited:
Stevens: Clinical Immunology and Serology (2003)
Bartelt: Diagnostic Bacteriology (2000)


--------------------
\m/

Edited by PsychoChipmunk (07/16/05 04:48 PM)

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Invisiblesoochi
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Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,420
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Re: vegans [Re: PsychoChipmunk]
    #4409567 - 07/15/05 09:05 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm with the chipmunk, I mean if we were scavengers, how come we aren't still? why would the enzyme that helped us digest bad meat evolve out of us if scavenging was our thing? I'm guessing it's because we made the conscience choice to hunt.


Bottomline, what we need are republican conservatives who are okay with homosexuals and hippies that shave and have jobs, then we'll move forward- Patton Oswald


--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: vegans [Re: soochi]
    #4410908 - 07/16/05 05:41 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

soochi said:
why would the enzyme that helped us digest bad meat evolve out of us if scavenging was our thing? I'm guessing it's because we made the conscience choice to hunt.




now we've made the concious choice to buy processed foods, thats lead to an increase in things like chrons disease, the foods we used to eat contained
little microbes, bacteria and parasites that helped us to stay healthy.

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InvisibleLeastResistance
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Re: vegans [Re: fung_us_among_us]
    #4410971 - 07/16/05 07:08 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Are good to eat!


--------------------
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here"

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