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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: sex [Re: spud]
#4154789 - 05/09/05 07:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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In fact, if you were to use the categorical imperative test (Immanuel Kant), you would come to the conclusion that doing so is immoral.
How so? Kant's Categorical Imperatives go to setting a different standard for yourself than you do for the rest of humanity. I don't see how this applies here.
It's been a while since I studied Kant, so correct me if I'm wrong.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Well one can use his intelligence to read selectivly
Maybe you should try that sometime.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: sex [Re: Diploid]
#4154800 - 05/09/05 07:44 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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His imperative states that whenever you do something, ask yourself, can it be used as a general rule of behaviour for human race, and try and imagine what would world look like if everyone acts like you do
I find it one of the best and most flexible definitions of morality, one that is actually usable in arguments
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Well I did read selectivly, you said it yourself
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: sex [Re: Diploid]
#4154805 - 05/09/05 07:45 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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You have to take the action and assume it was universalized. You have to ask yourself, if I were to will this action upon the entire universe, would any contradictions, absurdities, or problems arise. I can think of several. Rape is a form of sex without love. Men leaving women after impregnated can be an often result of sex without love. I could go on...
Kant's categorical imperative test is FAR from a personal test. It has nothing to do with personal motives/desires/thoughts. It's about the universalizing actions and seeing the societal effect.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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as you can see, I don't have much intelligence, but I'm happy with that I have, keeps me alive
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: as you can see, I don't have much intelligence, but I'm happy with that I have, keeps me alive
Being happy is more important. And don't be so modest. Ever been to the midwest?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/09/05 07:58 PM)
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
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never been in US, I've never been further than Austria, CZ republic and Hungary
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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I want to be rich and famous and live in japan and have sex with hundreds of japanese girls everyday. I think this goal will make me very happy.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: sex [Re: spud]
#4154880 - 05/09/05 08:03 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Rape is a form of sex without love.
But we're not talking about rape. The definition of rape is not "sex without love".
Men leaving women after impregnated can be an often result of sex without love.
It's also often the result of sex with love. Again we're not talking about men dumping women but rather two people having consensual loveless sex. How does Kant's reasoning come to call this immoral?
If the whole world had loveless sex, they could still experience love with someone else they don't (or do?) have sex with. Many gay people are in exactly this type of relationship, i.e. "fuck many, love one".
Given this, I don't see how Kant's reasoning would call this immoral.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: sex [Re: looner2]
#4154884 - 05/09/05 08:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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don't limit yourself to one this condition of happyness, make a few more conditions, and a few small ones that you are sure will come true
Contition yourself to be happy if the next day is eother sunny or not sunny, and you will wake up in bliss either way
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Contition yourself to be happy if the next day is eother sunny or not sunny, and you will wake up in bliss either way
Thats the easy way out.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: sex [Re: Diploid]
#4154896 - 05/09/05 08:07 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Rape is a form of sex without love.
But we're not talking about rape. The definition of rape is not "sex without love".
It is inclusive, hence me saying a form.
Quote:
Men leaving women after impregnated can be an often result of sex without love.
It's also often the result of sex with love.
Read the statistics, I have. The percentage of people who left their partner after pregnancy is much much higher when love is not present. Therefor, it is logical to assume this would be a resultant.
Quote:
Many gay people are in exactly this type of relationship, i.e. "fuck many, love one".
Yes, and this further helped spread AIDS. Another reason why it would be problematic as an imperative.
Quote:
Given this, I don't see how Kant's reasoning would call this immoral.
Kant himself gave passionate sex as an example of something immoral.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: sex [Re: spud]
#4154905 - 05/09/05 08:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Kant himself gave passionate sex as an example of something immoral.
Eh, what did he know.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: sex [Re: looner2]
#4154906 - 05/09/05 08:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
Contition yourself to be happy if the next day is eother sunny or not sunny, and you will wake up in bliss either way
Thats the easy way out.
even something as divine and powerfull as lightning choses the easies way with least resistance
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Muppet
Nomadic Jester
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so true indeed
-------------------- Ravings of a Madman
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: sex [Re: tomk]
#4155462 - 05/09/05 10:55 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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sorry dude, I shouldn't have spoken so harshly of those who indulge in casual sex. I was out of bounds. Its just that all the people I've ever met who were like that also just happened to be real seedy, shallow people that seemed to have no feelings or respect for themselves or their fellow human beings. Perhaps I just got a bad sample.
anywho, my opinion is pretty irrelevant considering the fact that I am just one man and I can only make decisions for myself. I really don't understand why you would be so offended by it, since it ultimately holds no consequence for you. For someone who is so free of hang-ups you sure seem to care a lot about what others think.
I have always firmly believed that willpower is an important thing, and that it should be finely honed and employed to control all the biological drives which evolution has stuck us with. This is how we can become more than animals. If we do not control our biology we will ultimately be its victims. I know too many people who have unwanted kids at young ages, STDs, and emotional scarring simply because they had weak wills, didn't plan ahead, didn't see the big picture.
I've seen a lot of people get fucked by casual sex, and I urge those I love to stay out of it. But if you are gonna do it, at least be smart about it I mean, its a crazy fucked up world, man. We've got AIDS, overpopulation, not to mention the fact that women are more scandalous and powerful than ever. I'm talking chicks that forget to take their pill and then comes the shotgun wedding followed by the divorce and the alimony and child support, etc etc etc...
btw, I'm no fundamentalist christian and its unfair for you to categorize me based on my stance on this one issue. I realize I did the same thing to you and I apologize. But hey, just because I'm cautious with my dick and my feelings doesn't mean I'm some kinda prude.
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raytrace
Stranger
Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
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sex? Kant? oh, for FUCK's sake stop it!
Edited by raytrace (05/10/05 03:58 AM)
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Quote:
raytrace said: sex? Kant? oh, for FUCK's sake stop it!
please be carefull to whom you refer your posts
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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