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 the_phoenix
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 Re: The Buddha was a Fraud  [Re: egghead1]
#4150060 - 05/08/05 11:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think this thread is essentially about nihilism, and I think we both understand it from slightly different perspectives but essentially the same way. Nihilism is trying to find meaning in a meaningless world. It is meaningless, because the person doing the searching has disconnected himself from the world, and when reality is considered in isolation from its observer, it is indeed meaningless and menacing. So nihilism's negation of everything is contingent upon the premise of the nihilist who is cut off from the world he considers. And as one progressively dissolves this strict duality, proportionately does meaning manifest into the world. So it begins with a dualistic understanding that progressively transforms into a universal understanding. Can we agree on this, and that most people do begin in duality?
Now it is a matter of progressive degrees and not either/or. Perhaps this is the first step that is so hard to take, that maintains in a person a nihilistic perspective and prevents progressive growth. To accept it is not either/or is to acknowledge the innate flaw within the nihilistic stance, the dual understanding of reality separate from the nihilist.
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 Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
#4150147 - 05/08/05 12:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The problem with the "enlightened" religions like Buddhism is precisely the fact that they are not passionate. They have advanced a step up from hatred of life's dark points to simply accepting them with an enlightened, open mind, but what is the point of enlightenment if we are to just empty our mind and be content?
I would not trust a Buddha who did not dance in bliss at the chaos around him. A meditating Buddha may tell us the cause of suffering, but he himself only becomes neutral to it. We must step beyond the shadow of simply being content and neutral to loving all change and chaos in life. Chaos and suffering are simply manifestions of the constant change of the cosmos within our minds, and once we recognize this, they no longer become imposing dark forces, but just part of the beautiful dance of uncertainty and creation around us.
The Buddha may have learned how to stop frowning, but he never learned how to laugh. You may empty a bucket of sludge and be able to see the reflective bottom, but what use is an empty bucket? We must fill it with a love that cannot be tainted with suffering and desire, because we must fill it with the love and fascination of suffering and chaos itself.
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Bathing in the glow of meaningless chaos is total nihilsm and an extreme form lacking in responsibilty for ones actions.
You say this as if it were a bad thing. We can never know anything beyond our perception, so what isn't objectively meaningless? Even the concept of objectiveness is itself a delusional subjective response to our ignorance.
What is responsibility? If you mean remorse for one's actions, purposely filling yourself with suffering over something you once did, that's only creating more stupidity and ignorance within your mind. Your actions are simply part of the dance of meaninglessness and chaos around us, and our religious justifications for them are nothing more than painful delusions that chaos will wipe away.
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The fact is that the realization of emptiness/inifinty gives life meaning becuase we know the nature of life and our minds, so we are free from the suffering of our delusional perception of reality. True Nirvana is freedom from suffering. The Buddha was never some icon of worship, the statues of the Buddha are just symbols which represent our own enligthened nature, he is never viewed as some Godlike being to be worshiped, the statues serve only as a reminder of the potential of a human being to become fully awake.
We know the nature of life? That is, of course, a mass delusion. We can never objectively know anything besides that which our personal perception has shown us, that our bias egos have thought of, so it is impossible to know anything besides our bias and illusions. Take away all sight, all sound, all thoughts, and what do you have?
We look on the evolution of these perceptions and biases, and what has created them? Natural selection, of course. These genetics errors became useful to preserving our reproductive line in this world of chaos, but chaos itself created them with mutations and change. Our delusional perception of reality is the only thing we have, and enlightenment itself is just wiping away the trash and waste we have built up over the soil of what chaos has given us, but are we to just leave this soil blank and boring rather than letting new life and new trees grow in it?
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You are mistaken as to what the Buddha taught if you belive that he was a fraud, i suggest you checkup and do some reading on the real meaning of emptiness and freedom from suffering before you continue with this line of thinking.
I've read much of the Buddha and Eastern philosophies, but I see no reason to take a dead man's meaning of freedom from thousands of years ago, rather than a more beautiful one in line with the science of today. We look at quantum physics, we look at natural selection and variation, and what do see? Chaos is creating the universe around us in a cosmic dance.
We can simply sit there and accept this cosmic dance in enlightenment, or we can join this dance with a passionate love for the change and chaos that wipes all traditions away.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4150180 - 05/08/05 12:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree with you exept for the responsibility part..
If we all accepted every action as it is, and took no responsibility for our own actions, planet earth would be no different than moon in just a year or two, maybe less
I suspect there are many currious kids out there that would like to launch nuclear warheads, so we should just let them dance over there and do it, and then we'd all enjoy the meaningless mushrooms rising all over the earth in the atmosphere
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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the_phoenix
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Ravus, when I speak of enlightenment, the concept behind it is loose, and what I mean to imply is an advanced state of awareness, whatever that may emply. I think you regard it as a specific type of awareness that perhaps Eastern religions advocate, and in this light I understand what you mean. It seems the term 'enlightenment' in this discussion is causing some misunderstanding.
Instead of disseminating others' positions, which you do quite eloquently, tell me what is your position? I'm curious, because I have yet to fully grasp your stance, though I can see it is aware.
Maybe neutral, balanced enlightenment is called for as an awakened individual's baseline? The state he returns to in between dancing in the chaos. Or when he is forced to eat, or go to the bathroom, when matters of practicality call. It's not practical to regard all action as chaos to embrace and transcend, because sometimes menial tasks simply require doing.
Personally, I certainly do not remain fixed in a neutral state of balance all the time. I give in to my ego but I am conscious of doing so, and I do it purposely to give me something to transcend. I will 'give in' as long as I know I can handle and effectively transmute the hardships that follow, which in this light are not hardships but friction that turns into energy to be properly directed and well used. And it's my baseline that shows me the direction to propel these energies.
So passionless enlightenment offers direction, and embrace of chaos offers passion, the two combining to offer a vector for action. Shamanism and magic come to mind as ways to actively partake in the chaos in an ever-so-subtly orderly fashion.
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the_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
#4150360 - 05/08/05 01:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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But I do take issue, Ravus, with when you say that we cannot know anything beyond our perception. What connects us all is the common, and yet for each of us different, experience of the Now. All my beliefs are constantly reconfirmed in the Now, which is my base of operations wherefrom I work.
Through the now, experience of universal oneness is possible. From this perspective, it's true we know nothing beyond our perception, but our being that does the perceiving is vastly expanded and in this way we can come to know the fundamentals of the fractal universe, things that are common to everyone and everything, and arrive at truth that is beyond our egocentric individual perception.
Again, this requires not constantly remaining in balanced neutralism, but swinging back and forth from it to chaos and back. To venture out and explore, to experientially become that which we investigate and learn of it this way, and then to come back being ourselves when the excursion is finished.
Namste, the god within, connects us all. By entering my true self I can become all, or at least, more all than is otherwise my egocentric self.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
#4150537 - 05/08/05 03:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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What connects us all is the common, and yet for each of us different, experience of the Now.
Experience is perception. We only have our perception of the Now, if such a thing truely exists.
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All my beliefs are constantly reconfirmed in the Now, which is my base of operations wherefrom I work.
All your beliefs are subjective and based on your perception and personal logic. Nevertheless, this is true for all of us, which is why it's so sad that the Now itself is just a perception, eh?
This is why I believe nothing can be known absolutely, and why "the meaning of life" is just an illusion. There is no true meaning, because there is no absolutism. Life is meaningless other than the subjective meanings we give it.
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Through the now, experience of universal oneness is possible.
Indeed, any experience is possible when you have no limits. We are pure subjective perception, and therefore any experience can be put into our perception.
When you experience hunger in your stomach, is the hunger really in your stomach? It is actually a part of your brain that signals to the rest of your brain that you have hunger. The experience of oneness appears to occur outside our mind, yet this is also entirely a perception occuring in the wiring of our brains.
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things that are common to everyone and everything, and arrive at truth that is beyond our egocentric individual perception.
What is the difference between having a perception of arriving at a truth that applies to everyone occuring within your own brain, and actually reaching a truth that applies to everyone regardless of the brain it's perceived in? We can never know, because truely, we only know what applies within our own brain, and if that is an illusion of fundamental truth, then so be it. It should be remembered, though, that this "objective truth" is being perceived in an entirely subjective and bias manner, even if we would like to believe otherwise.
All truths are based on concepts, all concepts are based on theories, all theories are based on observations, and all observations are based on bias subjectivity. We can look at a truth and it appears to shine so brightly to us, but then we look at what its made of and as we delve deeper and deeper, we find the source of this truth is within ourselves. And because it lies entirely within ourself, and we are simply bias animals relying purely on subjectivity and perception, no truth can ever be known outside of our mind.
This does not mean that life and philosophy has to be simply discarded because at its source there is this problem of subjectivity. This "problem" allows us to realize that all experiences we have, all truths we see, all realities we perceive are entirely within us, and though there is no objective meaning to life, the meanings we create subjectively are just as beautiful.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4151824 - 05/08/05 10:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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As life gets longer awful feels softer, and it feels pretty soft to me
If it takes shit to make bliss, then I feel pretty blissfully
If there is no beauty without the pain then I would rather never see beauty again-
Modest Mouse
I don't know about you, but I don't like to feel like shit. That is all Samsarra is, impermanent happiness that makes you grasp more and constant pain. If you are a true masochist then good luck. Temporary fixes and cheap thrills don't do it for me anymore and I've had enough with being unhappy. I think happiness is just the absence of pain, so embracing passion which is the root of pain doesn't make any sense to me.
I think you just don't like to acknowledge systems that present an objective reality and solutions that work for everyone.
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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4151970 - 05/08/05 11:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I mean no disrespect but what you are portraying makes me sick. What buddha teaches is detachment from all things that bring with them an emtional static.
What you say about letting loose a "madness" is like unleashing pain and suffering on the world something to the likes of the devil and all things unholly.
What is Now is just like when you say oh I will quit smmokeing tommarow. Tomarrow will never come, you only ever really ever have is this moment.
With madness comes irresponsibility. With detachment comes a passive understanding of all.
Or maybe i am Mad for thinking this
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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I mean no disrespect but what you are portraying makes me sick.
I try.
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What you say about letting loose a "madness" is like unleashing pain and suffering on the world something to the likes of the devil and all things unholly.
I'd much rather live and love an interesting mad era than be complacently content in a normal static era.
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What is Now is just like when you say oh I will quit smmokeing tommarow. Tomarrow will never come, you only ever really ever have is this moment.
All you perceive yourself to be is your perception of this moment. What is objective time? We'll never know, as we only know what chaotic mutations allowed our connected neurons to perceive time as, not any actual Now or moment itself.
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With madness comes irresponsibility.
I have rarely seen responsibility in sanity. What is madness? Was the majority mad in the Medieval Days, when they tortured so-called witches and burned them to death? Was the majority mad in Nazi Germany, when they diposed of all their undesireables?
Madness exists only in those outside the majority, and rarely is there a time when the majority isn't wrong.
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With detachment comes a passive understanding of all.
Why would anyone want a passive understanding of all? Would you rather not dance in the fires of Rome and truely love and embrace every chaotic moment killing and changing everything around you, than simply sit there and be a passive meditator?
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Or maybe i am Mad for thinking this
No, you are with the majority, so I am sure you are perfectly sane.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4152001 - 05/08/05 11:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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are you saying that killing jews is right?
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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There is no right and wrong, but my quote said that the majority in Nazi Germany were not mad when they perpetuated the Holocaust. Indeed, madness is only the exception to the rule, and when the entire populace supports the death of so-called undesirables, the small minority who publicly disagree are the ones viewed as mad.
And as a note, a lot of other people were killed than Jews.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4152018 - 05/08/05 11:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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a passive understanding doesnt mean you arnt alowed to think and question.
And to snuff out any ones life for the amusment of enjoying the chaos is a very very sad way of living. There is much more to enjoy then watching any thing or any one suffer. I enjoy sitting on a back porch watching the breeze rustle leaves and birds hoping around limb from limd. I enjoy the sight of a hawk swooping down and clasping a mouse. Yes i am watching death and destruction as i witnis nature, but i feel no need to do these things unless it is needed to survive myself.
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4152029 - 05/08/05 11:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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No one seemed to notice Stallin killing thousands over decades cuz he was behind a comunist curtain.
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Alan Stone
Corpus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4152397 - 05/09/05 02:27 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'd much rather live and love an interesting mad era than be complacently content in a normal static era
Static eras don't exist. Thinking of oneself as "mad" is a choice. You shouldn't feel good about it, because you're still human and thus flawed yourself. True madness arises when you think you're perfect, which I doubt is the case for you.
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I have rarely seen responsibility in sanity.
Responsibility is just a standard. It has no meaning.
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What is madness? Was the majority mad in the Medieval Days, when they tortured so-called witches and burned them to death? Was the majority mad in Nazi Germany, when they diposed of all their undesireables?
Yes. Hysterical too.
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Madness exists only in those outside the majority, and rarely is there a time when the majority isn't wrong.
If the minority moves out and starts its own community, it becomes the majority. Shows you how relative "us" and "them" is.
If you truly feel the majority was wrong during the inquisition or in Nazi Germany, then you don't love chaos as much as you say you do. Loving chaos and death is the privilige of those living a wealthy life in the West. We have no need for reason, we have cash.
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Would you rather not dance in the fires of Rome and truely love and embrace every chaotic moment killing and changing everything around you, than simply sit there and be a passive meditator?
Death is not the only factor of change. If you want to kill, join the army.
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No, you are with the majority, so I am sure you are perfectly sane
And you are insane because you belong to a minority? Give us a collective break.
I submit to you this example. Will you love chaos and death if it happens to you? Will you enjoy the moment when someone comes along with a semi-automatic and murders your friends and family while you're at the scene? Will you roll around in their guts and drink their blood? If not, you are a poser.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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Swami
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
#4152460 - 05/09/05 02:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think this thread is essentially about nihilism...
I like nihilons, you know - those sheer black ones...
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The proof is in the pudding.
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a_h_w
Stranger
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Swami]
#4152802 - 05/09/05 09:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I really don't like when people use madness as an excuse for murder. Most murders are conscious acts. People may be evil, disrespectful for life, absolutely foolish, but madness is something very different. Science still as a long walk ahead to explain exactly what is madness.
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cubed
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RE: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Swami]
#4152832 - 05/09/05 09:27 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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edit - quotes are all Ravus and post was reply to Ravus, not Swami
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What is acceptance besides simply sitting there, staring off into space and ignoring the death and chaos all around you?
Acceptance and ignorance are two very very different things. acceptance is not ignoring - accepting is accepting.
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You must learn to love death
Yes
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The Buddha says we overcome suffering by overcoming desire, but what does that leave of art, of chaos and of love? Humanity is expressive desire, and even enlightenment is just a delusional form of emptiness. Bathing in the glow of chaos, of meaninglessness, of our eventual demise is the true Nirvana.
1. Some things are worth suffering for....only you can decide what you will suffer for. If you can accept the suffering your desire will likely be fulfilled. If you cannot accept the suffering required....give up the desire and let it go.
2. 'Bathing in the glow of chaos, of meaninglessness, of our eventual demise is the true Nirvana' = acceptance
3. Acceptance does not mean ignorance (as I said before) And as you said: 'Humanity is expressive desire'. Even deciding to meditate to reach a goal of 'enlightenment' is a desire - like all desires the path it leads you along will bring suffering and happiness; accepting both will bring joy throughout = accepting chaos.
4. Yes chaos - accept chaos; rather than trying to force the world to be how you wish it to so that your desires are fulfilled.
5. 'Humanity is expressive desire' - Godhead is not. Each of us humans is hardwired with particular desires that lead us along paths into the futures....Some we cannot ever give up (without a societal meltdown of one sort or another) since they actually form the basis for who we define ourselves to be (within our societal context) and what our life mission is. For those desires we have already decided to accept the suffering inherent, because the desire is worth it to us. Because we love that thing, because we love the suffering the pain and the death - since it is worth it for the joy and the success.....we love The Experience and what it reveals to us.
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I bet if Jesus had lived a full life though, he would've eventually became old, judgemental and condescending
He already was - just look how he treated the market sellers in the the church. Hardly show the other cheek eh?
Human I guess - and the pinnacle of humanity is a well mastered, well applied ego working in tandem with the Godhead. Suffering for the sake of The Experience and humanity, succeeding for the sake of The Experience and humanity. Learning all the time - peace will only come with the death much loved; or in acceptance of the maze we travel and the ups and downs that are unavoidable as we follow our hearts
Or I could be completely wrong - I don't know I'm a a stupid human with a lot of desires....some things I can accept, some I cannot....feeling the peace except when I need to unaccept to carry out my end of the bargin and do my work  ....though realising this and overall accepting that I am me, and I am...you are...we are.....peace is being me and accepting that, know thyself....Peace is accepting all the different people and energies and their glory, even if I must fight in order to be me, and accepting that...know thy fight
Acceptance does not deny you to be yourself, acceptance means you understand the duality that does exist is perfect and that the suffering and joy are necessary and that you will be you none-the-less. Being your character in the story, yet also being able to step back and see the storyboard as the author does - knowing that without being yourself, there would be no story. That without those (things) you must fight, there would be no you.....the death much loved would be here already, but it is not yet the time to enter that particular nirvana...certain desires must be wrought from the chaos
accept yourself
majik
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booohooohoooohoooo
Edited by cubed (05/09/05 09:48 AM)
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4154386 - 05/09/05 05:36 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said:
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The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
Hunter S. Thompson
Thompson- a modern day Jesus, minus the bullshit.
 
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings
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This whole thread=The section in Birth of Tragedy where Nietzche pans Buddhis. It's no surprise Ravus is qouting him so much.
I'll take Buddha's side on this one. I think his description of 'pleasure' as simply changing suffering is pretty heavy stuff. It's like when you are on the stair master and the resistance drops for a little bit, it feels good because the pain you were just experiencing is lessened to some degree but it only lasts a short time before the resistance goes back up. Buddha says that true happiness is permanent and not dependent on external stimuli. Samsarric happiness is kind of like being a Heroin junky, it never lasts, you constantly need more, and you feel like shit if you don't get what you want. That is no way to live.
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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
Edited by Divided_Sky (05/10/05 12:31 AM)
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
#4156111 - 05/10/05 02:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Wow, this is a great thread... my head feels like popping, just trying to put my thoughts together.
These are two of my favorite philosophies... and I'm a bit conflicted. I always like to think there's room for both, as both philosophies serve different purposes.
I teach a lot of Buddhism here at The Shroomery, but I really am a closet Nihilist.
War, drama, passion, rejection, creativity, technology, sex... damn man, Nihilsm reflects humanity at its most human.
I love the simple complexity of Buddha's teachings. They aren't bullshit, and thinking Buddha thoughts makes for WONDERFUL entheogenic trips... I point people to the "Tibettan Book of the Dead", ALL the time, if they are looking for beginner tripping advice. I also, think the Buddhists are on to something, when it comes to the ego.
I feel Buddhism is an elegant old-world Philosophy, representing man in a enlightened, animal state. Core beliefs of Buddhism are similar to many old-world religions and philosophies which came before and after it. I think it is human nature to search for a Buddhist-like Nirvanna (like returning to the womb)... but it is also human nature to create and evolve into new philosophies.
On that note, an enlightened man does not just sit around being all blissed out. Well, they get to do that for a while (I'd want to enjoy heaven on Earth for a while too) but eventually, most enlightened folks come back to reality, while remaining enlightened. They help the unenlightened world through their enlightened eyes.
However, it seems humanity is rapidly evolving beyond Buddhism. And, at the rate technology is growing, we're always on the brink of something profound. If everybody became enlightened tomorrow, humanity would ultimately take a few steps backward. Of course, in an unenlightened world, there's always the chance we'll blow ourselves up!
Buddhism sure is a tidy way of looking at the world, though.
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Fiddlesticks.
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