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InvisibleRavus
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The Buddha was a Fraud
    #4148500 - 05/08/05 12:00 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

1. Life is ultimately pain, chaos and death for all living, perceiving creatures.
2. Our impulsive and instinctual fear and loathing of these three aspects of life cause us suffering and unhappiness.
3. Natural selection has created subjective suffering for the sole reason of causing us unhappiness, but there is a way to overcome it.
4. Suffering and unhappiness are overcome by not only accepting pain, chaos and death, but embracing and loving as you would love the highest points of life.

The greatest fear among society is the spontaneous outbreak of madness, Nihilism and acceptance. If we learned to love suffering, what solace would we need from the religious authorities? If we accepted life's suffering and pain as the rocks and dirt do, what power would be left for the governmental authorities to abuse?

The Buddha says we overcome suffering by overcoming desire, but what does that leave of art, of chaos and of love? Humanity is expressive desire, and even enlightenment is just a delusional form of emptiness. Bathing in the glow of chaos, of meaninglessness, of our eventual demise is the true Nirvana.

When people suffer a traumatic experience, they dissociate, block it out, or ultimately just give up and let time wash their errors away, when in the stream ahead of them another traumatic experience looms closer and closer. We cannot escape trauma and suffering any more than we can escape time itself.

Yet these experiences that we so often try to forget, cry about, look back at with remorse, are the ones that teach us the most about our reality. It's easy to be enlightened if you do nothing besides meditate all day and drink water from the stream, but what does a man who just had his house burned down, his wife and children die and his dog shot by American invaders do with his cessation of desire?

We have evolved so that our consciousness can morph our brain at any instant, if you have the love of chaos to do it. Ultimately, it is the fear of change and death that is the most harmful aspect of humanity, yet it is precisely this that religion and authority have sprung from. It is their collar around our necks that they control us with, and they know if we ever learn to love pain, they will die.

They distract us with rather pointless issues of more chaos and death, such as wars, criminalization of victimless crimes, and financial problems, but what does this matter to those in power? Do you really think the government cares about money and drugs as anything more than a distraction to keep all those who would rebel focused on changing a few small aspects of this pointless and failed control system?

Quote:

The greatest danger that always hovered over humanity and still hovers over it is the eruption of madness - which means the eruption of arbitrariness in feeling, seeing and hearing, the enjoyment of the mind's lack of discipline, the joy in human unreason. Not truth and certainty are the opposite of the world of the madman, but the universality and the universal binding force of a faith; in sum, the non-arbitrary character of judgements... Thus the virtuous intellects are needed - oh, let me use the most unambiguous word - what is needed is virtuous stupidity, stolid metronomes for the slow spirit, to make sure that the faithful of the great shared faith stay together and continue their dance... We others are the exception and the danger - and we need eternally to be opposed. - Well, there actually are things to be said in favor of the exception, provided that it never wants to become the rule.
-Friedrich Nietzsche




Perhaps there will be a day when Nihilism is the great escape to madness this world needs, and Nietzsche is regarded as the intelligent prophet rather than the delusional idols we have worshipped for so long.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4148632 - 05/08/05 12:37 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Perhaps there will be a day when Nihilism is the great escape to madness this world needs, and Nietzsche is regarded as the intelligent prophet rather than the delusional idols we have worshipped for so long.




One can dream...


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4148817 - 05/08/05 01:38 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Close to the edge...aren't you?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4148842 - 05/08/05 01:44 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

One can hope, my honky friend.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4148874 - 05/08/05 01:53 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Love suffering or accept suffering?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4148894 - 05/08/05 02:00 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
Hunter S. Thompson




Thompson- a modern day Jesus, minus the bullshit.

Jesus was probably just going through a phase anyway, and the Romans terminated him in the middle of it so that his sheep could claim it would've gone on forever. I bet if Jesus had lived a full life though, he would've eventually became old, judgemental and condescending, like everyone else who hates the abandonment of old useless rituals and beliefs.

And the true irony of this is those who become condescending and traditional are simply following those who once abandoned useless old rituals themselves. Because of this, what was once new must yet again be abandoned.

But no one can ever embrace the chaos of this, or find the humor in the idiocy of the "traditional" ones who would be so quick to judge others.

Quote:

Whoever has overthrown an existing law of custom has always first been accounted a bad man: but when, as did happen, the law could not afterwards be reinstated and this fact was accepted, the predicate gradually changed; - history treats almost exclusively of these bad men who subsequently became good men!
-Friedrich Nietzsche




--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Jellric]
    #4148901 - 05/08/05 02:05 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

What is acceptance besides simply sitting there, staring off into space and ignoring the death and chaos all around you?

You will get nowhere but frustrated fighting death- it'd be like pushing against the ground itself.

You will simply become complacent accepting death- but why accept mediocrity? We are part of the inevitable and beautiful forces of life, and life itself does not accept mediocrity, so why should our egos?

You must learn to love death. It is more holy than any prophet that has gone before us, more accepting than any religion or philosophy, more generous than any other force in existence. Death and chaos are what gives birth to everything that has come before, is existing now and will be created after this fleeting moment.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4148946 - 05/08/05 02:29 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

I see...over the edge. Sorry.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4149002 - 05/08/05 02:53 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Ravus, your words strike very true to me. But it isn't clear to me what, overall, you see in chaos?

It's true, we must stop denying and repressing chaos and death. Only once we embrace chaos can we find order in it. The kind of order where all options of action are possibilities for us, and we mindfully choose that which *best* appeases chaos--inaction. Resistance of entropy by being and nothing more. Being, in perfect balance.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Truth.....? [Re: Ravus]
    #4149083 - 05/08/05 03:19 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I bet if Jesus had lived a full life though, he would've eventually became old, judgemental and condescending, like everyone else who hates the abandonment of old useless rituals and beliefs.



.
.
I will make that bet with you, but MAYBE you will choose not to pay up now(perhaps, not in this lifetime?)..... 
----But, all I will ask in return for payment of this bet would be a smile....)    :muppet:
.
So, I have two questions about your hypothetical bet....
.
1)  Of what "rituals" did Jesus Christ have....?
.
2)  And what part of his "beliefs" were  "useless"....?
.
3)  Of what reasons would Jesus get "judgemental and condescending"....?    (He saved people)....  :wink:
.
4)  Define "useless"....
.
5)  "like everyone else who hates"....  HHhhhmmmm.....  :confused:
.
.
.
.
This one made me laugh.....!    :lol:
"he would've eventually became old"
.
You are as OLD as you have ever been in your ENTIRE PHYSICAL LIFE at the moment you get to this point....  =====> X
:shocked:  :smirk:
(and you can read it over and over again, and it will be true every time....)  :tongue:


Blessings....!  :heartpump:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4149312 - 05/08/05 05:32 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

even enlightenment is just a delusional form of emptiness. Bathing in the glow of chaos, of meaninglessness, of our eventual demise is the true Nirvana.


Umm, no enligtenment is not a delusional form of emptiness at all, the mind is discovered to be naturally empty when free from those dark clouds of ignorant, delusional states, the emptiness does not refer to some nihilistic view, its just that everything is empty of all the qualities of permenance and self-existence that we project onto everything, the empty state which is realized is not some negative view as our english language would decieve us into beliveing, it is the vast emptiness which is pregenant with the infinte potential to manifest. Free from self-existence means you are in the knowlege of interdependance, you know that everything is interdependant upon everthing else, and nothing manfests independantly of itself, this way you come to the core understanding.

Bathing in the glow of meaningless chaos is total nihilsm and an extreme form lacking in responsibilty for ones actions. The fact is that the realization of emptiness/inifinty gives life meaning becuase we know the nature of life and our minds, so we are free from the suffering of our delusional perception of reality. True Nirvana is freedom from suffering. The Buddha was never some icon of worship, the statues of the Buddha are just symbols which represent our own enligthened nature, he is never viewed as some Godlike being to be worshiped, the statues serve only as a reminder of the potential of a human being to become fully awake.

You are mistaken as to what the Buddha taught if you belive that he was a fraud, i suggest you checkup and do some reading on the real meaning of emptiness and freedom from suffering before you continue with this line of thinking.


Edited by egghead1 (05/08/05 09:22 AM)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4149450 - 05/08/05 08:53 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

You must learn to love death. It is more holy than any prophet that has gone before us, more accepting than any religion or philosophy, more generous than any other force in existence. Death and chaos are what gives birth to everything that has come before, is existing now and will be created after this fleeting moment.



Only in a metaphorical sense. It is good to accept death as an inevitable part of human life, but that doesn't mean we should all become fascinated by it.
Death and chaos should be embraced, but by no means revered. Embracing death & chaos is no reason not to do anything about needless suffering. Moral relativism has hit its peak when we as humans fail to be able to feel empathy for other humans we have never seen but directly affect (by buying their goods at low prices, by supporting our government's war on them, etc.).

Embracing chaos and death, to me, is secondary to embracing the fact that we as humans are one. We are one species of animal, subject to the same mechanisms of wanting love, acceptance, challenges, food, shelter, health and drink.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: egghead1]
    #4149455 - 05/08/05 09:00 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Good post, eggo!  :thumbup:


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4149479 - 05/08/05 09:18 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
Good post, eggo!  :thumbup:






--------------------



Edited by MovingTarget (05/08/05 09:19 AM)


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: MovingTarget]
    #4149674 - 05/08/05 11:17 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

To chime in, in a discussion who's direction I cannot grasp as Ravus' point is not clear to me, nor do I understand all the opposition to him, nor do I know if his title was even sarcastic or not. So for the sake of chiming in...

Nihilism, enlightenment, all these things, all the most passionate perspectives through which to understand reality, perceive a common thing?infinite?in different lights. Existence or non-existence? Damnation or salvation? From an ego perspective, which considers existence in terms of individual sovereignty, infinite appears extremely threatening. Because it is there where we will all end up at death, an event which marks the dissemination of life as the ego knows it. But from a more enlightened perspective that embraces the chaos of --everything--, the path of life and then death and subtle life within the Ineffable, is clear. The present moment is saved as angst towards the future no longer holds it in confused panic.

Already in 'life' are we all one, and ego is denial of this fact. We are presently one, however, differently than were we all disseminated into the Ineffable. We are presently the manifestation of one?two! We perceive the Ineffable as constant interplay between Yin and Yang, for in considering it we apply to it the contextual nature of our own dualistic existence. The lesson of the Yin/Yang is well taken: absolute duality wherein both halves are totally separate from each other is not possible. So do we rely on the empty space around us to define our physical beings, so are we forever connected to the Ineffable. No matter how forcefully the ego denies this fact of existence, it can never achieve total independence, it can never be anything but innately fallacious in nature, and indeed the best resolution it can hope for is implosion which will experientially explain its self-negation to its victim-servant now freed.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4149698 - 05/08/05 11:37 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Nihilism, enlightenment, all these things, all the most passionate perspectives through which to understand reality, perceive a common thing?infinite?in different lights. Existence or non-existence? Damnation or salvation? From an ego perspective, which considers existence in terms of individual sovereignty, infinite appears extremely threatening. Because it is there where we will all end up at death, an event which marks the dissemination of life as the ego knows it. But from a more enlightened perspective that embraces the chaos of --everything--, the path of life and then death and subtle life within the Ineffable, is clear. The present moment is saved as angst towards the future no longer holds it in confused panic.

Nihislsm is a state of extreme negation which is most certainly based on a mind fully engaged in the passions of ignorance. The enlightened mind is said to be free from passion, so enlightenment is not a passionate perspective at all. In fact in Buddhism it is withinin the renunciation of those selfish passions that the compassionate Bodhi mind of enlightenment is realized. Just thought id make a little sidenote to state that Nihilsm is a view based on ego driven negation and is nowhere near a balanced enlightened perspective in my opinion.  :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: egghead1]
    #4149785 - 05/08/05 12:18 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Enlightenment is not passionate? Hmmmm. No, I suppose you're right, it isn't. Maybe passion is the wrong word. But there is some urgency in it I find, the kind the Now is permeated with. Active passivity. Passion in the sense that faith, joy, and compassion are very strong. A mind immutably fixed in a relative framework. Subtlety being stronger than tangibility. I guess I shouldn't have used the word enlightenment in the first place, as it is much too broad and vague. :smile:

I'm not saying nihilism is near enlightenment at all. But I do think it's a necessary phase for the ego to go through, and considering nihilism compared to belligerent egocentric complacency to society, the former is further along than the latter for at least it acknowledges the prescence of chaos and the present state of suffering. It is a step in the awakening process, one that many fall victim to permanently, in their current lifetime at least.

Is it a necessary step? It's one I went through, but I wonder, is it necessary?


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4149892 - 05/08/05 12:44 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Nihilsm - the belief that there is no universal truth or underlying reality that undergirds moral values; that ultimately existence is meaningless. From the Latin "nihil" or "nothing".

From my experience i can definlety say that this is not a nessasery step toward awakeneing at all. In fact it hinders the process because we firstly fail to see any meaning in life whasoever, which is contrary toward the path of awakening to the meaning, secondly there is no belief held in a universal truth and as such no methods are employed to realize non-duality, nor are any methods deemed nessasery whatsoever since life is seen as inherently meaningless, thridly people who are nihilistic generally hold no moral ethics becuase there is no belief that ones actions have any consequences, as such the view of nihilsm is even more dangerous than the average ego condition, in fact i would go so far as to say that it is a super-ego complex, but not in the fraudian expression of the word.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (05/08/05 12:50 PM)


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: egghead1]
    #4149941 - 05/08/05 01:05 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

The way I see it, at first a person is ignorant of the world around him and forget about finding meaning in it for this person doesn't even think for himself. As the world is discovered, chaos comes into view, all sorts of things the person doesn't yet understand. He tries to find meaning but things are too contradictory and none of it makes sense. This is the only truth he is left with, that it is all chaos, but at least now he is conscious of the world instead of blind to it.

From here, meaning is not found, but *created*. He gives up looking for external answers and turns inwards. Now as he creates meaning, it's a matter of finding a framework of understanding that makes order out of contradicting world facets that he is all-too conscious of. He has truly experienced the world, but discovers that as he re-experiences it through the lens of his self-created perspective, it is different. Relative understanding of the chaos begins to make some sense out of things, order out of chaos.

After writing this out, I see there are many other paths. If one were to learn straight away of relativity then perhaps nihilism could be avoided. But I must say, it was enjoyable for me. It was freedom. This was long ago of course, and it's hard to remember it well. But I was nothing in particular, hardly a super-ego, more like a totally undefined ego made of chaos, of whatever arbitrary thing I wished. It was an important growing experience for me, in which I assertively threw out my old world model that no longer held true in the slightest.

Now as he progresses, it becomes less and less a matter of creating a world model that fits. External things become better understood symbolically, implying themselves, and implying the profound self common to all things, the Ineffable, the original chaos that could not be made sense of. His new self-created world model, once constantly entertained superficially in his mind, progressively becomes symbolically manifest in his surroundings, allowing his mind to peacefully observe it and find meaning in the world which he did and did not create himself. Symbolic understanding, that is, relative understanding; understanding things mean one thing as they superficially appear, and many other things depending on how deeply and symbolically they are considered.


Edited by the_phoenix (05/08/05 01:12 PM)


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4150032 - 05/08/05 01:38 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
The way I see it, at first a person is ignorant of the world around him and forget about finding meaning in it for this person doesn't even think for himself. As the world is discovered, chaos comes into view, all sorts of things the person doesn't yet understand. He tries to find meaning but things are too contradictory and none of it makes sense. This is the only truth he is left with, that it is all chaos, but at least now he is conscious of the world instead of blind to it.

From here, meaning is not found, but *created*. He gives up looking for external answers and turns inwards. Now as he creates meaning, it's a matter of finding a framework of understanding that makes order out of contradicting world facets that he is all-too conscious of. He has truly experienced the world, but discovers that as he re-experiences it through the lens of his self-created perspective, it is different. Relative understanding of the chaos begins to make some sense out of things, order out of chaos.

After writing this out, I see there are many other paths. If one were to learn straight away of relativity then perhaps nihilism could be avoided. But I must say, it was enjoyable for me. It was freedom. This was long ago of course, and it's hard to remember it well. But I was nothing in particular, hardly a super-ego, more like a totally undefined ego made of chaos, of whatever arbitrary thing I wished. It was an important growing experience for me, in which I assertively threw out my old world model that no longer held true in the slightest.

Now as he progresses, it becomes less and less a matter of creating a world model that fits. External things become better understood symbolically, implying themselves, and implying the profound self common to all things, the Ineffable, the original chaos that could not be made sense of. His new self-created world model, once constantly entertained superficially in his mind, progressively becomes symbolically manifest in his surroundings, allowing his mind to peacefully observe it and find meaning in the world which he did and did not create himself. Symbolic understanding, that is, relative understanding; understanding things mean one thing as they superficially appear, and many other things depending on how deeply and symbolically they are considered.




Yes now i understand what you mean. Nihilism is not what you mean, you are talking about discovering that everything you once believed in is meaningless, and then the progressive stages toward discovering meaning in life and thew world anew, this is not nihilism at all, nihilism is a negation of everything in favor of nothing, its an extreme conception of emptiness derived from a negative conception of reality itself lacking any meaning. What you are speaking of is a positive transformation of perspective form the socially conditioned robot, zombie mode, to a more free and 'meaningful' existence. Chaos is the gap between disgarding and discovery.

In Buddhism generally, relative truth is presented first, so there is little need for such a radical gap in the discarding of past conditioning in the transformation process, its more of a slowly shifting perception of ones previous conditioned existence to a more meaningful, evolutionary path of gradual transformation of the gross perception of reality toward the subtle ultimate truth of emptiness. This is how its presented in the more gradual sutrics path's.

For someone who isn't presented with the relative truth straight off, i can see that it would take more time to discover these things within oneself without guidence, hence the wider, more radical gap in the process of discarding conditioned existence toward finding meaning anew. Until as you know, eventually everything is seen with pure vision as an empty wisdom symbol of enlightenment itself.  :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: egghead1]
    #4150060 - 05/08/05 01:49 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

I think this thread is essentially about nihilism, and I think we both understand it from slightly different perspectives but essentially the same way. Nihilism is trying to find meaning in a meaningless world. It is meaningless, because the person doing the searching has disconnected himself from the world, and when reality is considered in isolation from its observer, it is indeed meaningless and menacing. So nihilism's negation of everything is contingent upon the premise of the nihilist who is cut off from the world he considers. And as one progressively dissolves this strict duality, proportionately does meaning manifest into the world. So it begins with a dualistic understanding that progressively transforms into a universal understanding. Can we agree on this, and that most people do begin in duality?

Now it is a matter of progressive degrees and not either/or. Perhaps this is the first step that is so hard to take, that maintains in a person a nihilistic perspective and prevents progressive growth. To accept it is not either/or is to acknowledge the innate flaw within the nihilistic stance, the dual understanding of reality separate from the nihilist.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4150147 - 05/08/05 02:24 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

The problem with the "enlightened" religions like Buddhism is precisely the fact that they are not passionate. They have advanced a step up from hatred of life's dark points to simply accepting them with an enlightened, open mind, but what is the point of enlightenment if we are to just empty our mind and be content?

I would not trust a Buddha who did not dance in bliss at the chaos around him. A meditating Buddha may tell us the cause of suffering, but he himself only becomes neutral to it. We must step beyond the shadow of simply being content and neutral to loving all change and chaos in life. Chaos and suffering are simply manifestions of the constant change of the cosmos within our minds, and once we recognize this, they no longer become imposing dark forces, but just part of the beautiful dance of uncertainty and creation around us.

The Buddha may have learned how to stop frowning, but he never learned how to laugh. You may empty a bucket of sludge and be able to see the reflective bottom, but what use is an empty bucket? We must fill it with a love that cannot be tainted with suffering and desire, because we must fill it with the love and fascination of suffering and chaos itself.

Quote:

Bathing in the glow of meaningless chaos is total nihilsm and an extreme form lacking in responsibilty for ones actions.




You say this as if it were a bad thing. We can never know anything beyond our perception, so what isn't objectively meaningless? Even the concept of objectiveness is itself a delusional subjective response to our ignorance.

What is responsibility? If you mean remorse for one's actions, purposely filling yourself with suffering over something you once did, that's only creating more stupidity and ignorance within your mind. Your actions are simply part of the dance of meaninglessness and chaos around us, and our religious justifications for them are nothing more than painful delusions that chaos will wipe away.

Quote:

The fact is that the realization of emptiness/inifinty gives life meaning becuase we know the nature of life and our minds, so we are free from the suffering of our delusional perception of reality. True Nirvana is freedom from suffering. The Buddha was never some icon of worship, the statues of the Buddha are just symbols which represent our own enligthened nature, he is never viewed as some Godlike being to be worshiped, the statues serve only as a reminder of the potential of a human being to become fully awake.




We know the nature of life? That is, of course, a mass delusion. We can never objectively know anything besides that which our personal perception has shown us, that our bias egos have thought of, so it is impossible to know anything besides our bias and illusions. Take away all sight, all sound, all thoughts, and what do you have?

We look on the evolution of these perceptions and biases, and what has created them? Natural selection, of course. These genetics errors became useful to preserving our reproductive line in this world of chaos, but chaos itself created them with mutations and change. Our delusional perception of reality is the only thing we have, and enlightenment itself is just wiping away the trash and waste we have built up over the soil of what chaos has given us, but are we to just leave this soil blank and boring rather than letting new life and new trees grow in it?

Quote:

You are mistaken as to what the Buddha taught if you belive that he was a fraud, i suggest you checkup and do some reading on the real meaning of emptiness and freedom from suffering before you continue with this line of thinking.




I've read much of the Buddha and Eastern philosophies, but I see no reason to take a dead man's meaning of freedom from thousands of years ago, rather than a more beautiful one in line with the science of today. We look at quantum physics, we look at natural selection and variation, and what do see? Chaos is creating the universe around us in a cosmic dance.

We can simply sit there and accept this cosmic dance in enlightenment, or we can join this dance with a passionate love for the change and chaos that wipes all traditions away.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4150180 - 05/08/05 02:35 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

I agree with you exept for the responsibility part..

If we all accepted every action as it is, and took no responsibility for our own actions, planet earth would be no different than moon in just a year or two, maybe less

I suspect there are many currious kids out there that would like to launch nuclear warheads, so we should just let them dance over there and do it, and then we'd all enjoy the meaningless mushrooms rising all over the earth in the atmosphere


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4150338 - 05/08/05 03:13 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Ravus, when I speak of enlightenment, the concept behind it is loose, and what I mean to imply is an advanced state of awareness, whatever that may emply. I think you regard it as a specific type of awareness that perhaps Eastern religions advocate, and in this light I understand what you mean. It seems the term 'enlightenment' in this discussion is causing some misunderstanding.

Instead of disseminating others' positions, which you do quite eloquently, tell me what is your position? I'm curious, because I have yet to fully grasp your stance, though I can see it is aware.

Maybe neutral, balanced enlightenment is called for as an awakened individual's baseline? The state he returns to in between dancing in the chaos. Or when he is forced to eat, or go to the bathroom, when matters of practicality call. It's not practical to regard all action as chaos to embrace and transcend, because sometimes menial tasks simply require doing.

Personally, I certainly do not remain fixed in a neutral state of balance all the time. I give in to my ego but I am conscious of doing so, and I do it purposely to give me something to transcend. I will 'give in' as long as I know I can handle and effectively transmute the hardships that follow, which in this light are not hardships but friction that turns into energy to be properly directed and well used. And it's my baseline that shows me the direction to propel these energies.

So passionless enlightenment offers direction, and embrace of chaos offers passion, the two combining to offer a vector for action. Shamanism and magic come to mind as ways to actively partake in the chaos in an ever-so-subtly orderly fashion.


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4150360 - 05/08/05 03:19 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

But I do take issue, Ravus, with when you say that we cannot know anything beyond our perception. What connects us all is the common, and yet for each of us different, experience of the Now. All my beliefs are constantly reconfirmed in the Now, which is my base of operations wherefrom I work.

Through the now, experience of universal oneness is possible. From this perspective, it's true we know nothing beyond our perception, but our being that does the perceiving is vastly expanded and in this way we can come to know the fundamentals of the fractal universe, things that are common to everyone and everything, and arrive at truth that is beyond our egocentric individual perception.

Again, this requires not constantly remaining in balanced neutralism, but swinging back and forth from it to chaos and back. To venture out and explore, to experientially become that which we investigate and learn of it this way, and then to come back being ourselves when the excursion is finished.

Namste, the god within, connects us all. By entering my true self I can become all, or at least, more all than is otherwise my egocentric self.


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4150537 - 05/08/05 05:31 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

What connects us all is the common, and yet for each of us different, experience of the Now.




Experience is perception. We only have our perception of the Now, if such a thing truely exists.

Quote:

All my beliefs are constantly reconfirmed in the Now, which is my base of operations wherefrom I work.




All your beliefs are subjective and based on your perception and personal logic. Nevertheless, this is true for all of us, which is why it's so sad that the Now itself is just a perception, eh?

This is why I believe nothing can be known absolutely, and why "the meaning of life" is just an illusion. There is no true meaning, because there is no absolutism. Life is meaningless other than the subjective meanings we give it.

Quote:

Through the now, experience of universal oneness is possible.




Indeed, any experience is possible when you have no limits. We are pure subjective perception, and therefore any experience can be put into our perception.

When you experience hunger in your stomach, is the hunger really in your stomach? It is actually a part of your brain that signals to the rest of your brain that you have hunger. The experience of oneness appears to occur outside our mind, yet this is also entirely a perception occuring in the wiring of our brains.

Quote:

things that are common to everyone and everything, and arrive at truth that is beyond our egocentric individual perception.




What is the difference between having a perception of arriving at a truth that applies to everyone occuring within your own brain, and actually reaching a truth that applies to everyone regardless of the brain it's perceived in? We can never know, because truely, we only know what applies within our own brain, and if that is an illusion of fundamental truth, then so be it. It should be remembered, though, that this "objective truth" is being perceived in an entirely subjective and bias manner, even if we would like to believe otherwise.

All truths are based on concepts, all concepts are based on theories, all theories are based on observations, and all observations are based on bias subjectivity. We can look at a truth and it appears to shine so brightly to us, but then we look at what its made of and as we delve deeper and deeper, we find the source of this truth is within ourselves. And because it lies entirely within ourself, and we are simply bias animals relying purely on subjectivity and perception, no truth can ever be known outside of our mind.

This does not mean that life and philosophy has to be simply discarded because at its source there is this problem of subjectivity. This "problem" allows us to realize that all experiences we have, all truths we see, all realities we perceive are entirely within us, and though there is no objective meaning to life, the meanings we create subjectively are just as beautiful.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4151824 - 05/09/05 12:37 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

As life gets longer awful feels softer, and it feels pretty soft to me
If it takes shit to make bliss, then I feel pretty blissfully
If there is no beauty without the pain then I would rather never see beauty again-
Modest Mouse

I don't know about you, but I don't like to feel like shit. That is all Samsarra is, impermanent happiness that makes you grasp more and constant pain. If you are a true masochist then good luck. Temporary fixes and cheap thrills don't do it for me anymore and I've had enough with being unhappy. I think happiness is just the absence of pain, so embracing passion which is the root of pain doesn't make any sense to me.

I think you just don't like to acknowledge systems that present an objective reality and solutions that work for everyone.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4151970 - 05/09/05 01:12 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

I mean no disrespect but what you are portraying makes me sick. What buddha teaches is detachment from all things that bring with them an emtional static.

What you say about letting loose a "madness" is like unleashing pain and suffering on the world something to the likes of the devil and all things unholly.

What is Now is just like when you say oh I will quit smmokeing tommarow. Tomarrow will never come, you only ever really ever have is this moment.

With madness comes irresponsibility. With detachment comes a passive understanding of all.

Or maybe i am Mad for thinking this


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #4151989 - 05/09/05 01:21 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

I mean no disrespect but what you are portraying makes me sick.




I try.

Quote:

What you say about letting loose a "madness" is like unleashing pain and suffering on the world something to the likes of the devil and all things unholly.




I'd much rather live and love an interesting mad era than be complacently content in a normal static era.

Quote:

What is Now is just like when you say oh I will quit smmokeing tommarow. Tomarrow will never come, you only ever really ever have is this moment.




All you perceive yourself to be is your perception of this moment. What is objective time? We'll never know, as we only know what chaotic mutations allowed our connected neurons to perceive time as, not any actual Now or moment itself.

Quote:

With madness comes irresponsibility.




I have rarely seen responsibility in sanity. What is madness? Was the majority mad in the Medieval Days, when they tortured so-called witches and burned them to death? Was the majority mad in Nazi Germany, when they diposed of all their undesireables?

Madness exists only in those outside the majority, and rarely is there a time when the majority isn't wrong.

Quote:

With detachment comes a passive understanding of all.




Why would anyone want a passive understanding of all? Would you rather not dance in the fires of Rome and truely love and embrace every chaotic moment killing and changing everything around you, than simply sit there and be a passive meditator?

Quote:

Or maybe i am Mad for thinking this




No, you are with the majority, so I am sure you are perfectly sane.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4152001 - 05/09/05 01:25 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

are you saying that killing jews is right?


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #4152010 - 05/09/05 01:29 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

There is no right and wrong, but my quote said that the majority in Nazi Germany were not mad when they perpetuated the Holocaust. Indeed, madness is only the exception to the rule, and when the entire populace supports the death of so-called undesirables, the small minority who publicly disagree are the ones viewed as mad.

And as a note, a lot of other people were killed than Jews.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4152018 - 05/09/05 01:31 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

a passive understanding doesnt mean you arnt alowed to think and question.

And to snuff out any ones life for the amusment of enjoying the chaos is a very very sad way of living. There is much more to enjoy then watching any thing or any one suffer. I enjoy sitting on a back porch watching the breeze rustle leaves and birds hoping around limb from limd. I enjoy the sight of a hawk swooping down and clasping a mouse. Yes i am watching death and destruction as i witnis nature, but i feel no need to do these things unless it is needed to survive myself.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4152029 - 05/09/05 01:34 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

No one seemed to notice Stallin killing thousands over decades cuz he was behind a comunist curtain.


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4152397 - 05/09/05 04:27 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

I'd much rather live and love an interesting mad era than be complacently content in a normal static era



Static eras don't exist. Thinking of oneself as "mad" is a choice. You shouldn't feel good about it, because you're still human and thus flawed yourself. True madness arises when you think you're perfect, which I doubt is the case for you.

Quote:

I have rarely seen responsibility in sanity.



Responsibility is just a standard. It has no meaning.

Quote:

What is madness? Was the majority mad in the Medieval Days, when they tortured so-called witches and burned them to death? Was the majority mad in Nazi Germany, when they diposed of all their undesireables?



Yes. Hysterical too.

Quote:

Madness exists only in those outside the majority, and rarely is there a time when the majority isn't wrong.



If the minority moves out and starts its own community, it becomes the majority. Shows you how relative "us" and "them" is.
If you truly feel the majority was wrong during the inquisition or in Nazi Germany, then you don't love chaos as much as you say you do. Loving chaos and death is the privilige of those living a wealthy life in the West. We have no need for reason, we have cash.

Quote:

Would you rather not dance in the fires of Rome and truely love and embrace every chaotic moment killing and changing everything around you, than simply sit there and be a passive meditator?



Death is not the only factor of change. If you want to kill, join the army.

Quote:

No, you are with the majority, so I am sure you are perfectly sane



And you are insane because you belong to a minority? Give us a collective break.

I submit to you this example. Will you love chaos and death if it happens to you? Will you enjoy the moment when someone comes along with a semi-automatic and murders your friends and family while you're at the scene? Will you roll around in their guts and drink their blood? If not, you are a poser.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4152460 - 05/09/05 04:53 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

I think this thread is essentially about nihilism...

I like nihilons, you know - those sheer black ones...


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Swami]
    #4152802 - 05/09/05 11:11 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

I really don't like when people use madness as an excuse for murder. Most murders are conscious acts. People may be evil, disrespectful for life, absolutely foolish, but madness is something very different. Science still as a long walk ahead to explain exactly what is madness.


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RE: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Swami]
    #4152832 - 05/09/05 11:27 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

edit - quotes are all Ravus and post was reply to Ravus, not Swami

Quote:

What is acceptance besides simply sitting there, staring off into space and ignoring the death and chaos all around you?




Acceptance and ignorance are two very very different things. acceptance is not ignoring - accepting is accepting.

Quote:

You must learn to love death




Yes

Quote:

The Buddha says we overcome suffering by overcoming desire, but what does that leave of art, of chaos and of love? Humanity is expressive desire, and even enlightenment is just a delusional form of emptiness. Bathing in the glow of chaos, of meaninglessness, of our eventual demise is the true Nirvana.




1. Some things are worth suffering for....only you can decide what you will suffer for. If you can accept the suffering your desire will likely be fulfilled. If you cannot accept the suffering required....give up the desire and let it go.

2. 'Bathing in the glow of chaos, of meaninglessness, of our eventual demise is the true Nirvana' = acceptance

3. Acceptance does not mean ignorance (as I said before) And as you said: 'Humanity is expressive desire'. Even deciding to meditate to reach a goal of 'enlightenment' is a desire - like all desires the path it leads you along will bring suffering and happiness; accepting both will bring joy throughout = accepting chaos.

4. Yes chaos - accept chaos; rather than trying to force the world to be how you wish it to so that your desires are fulfilled.

5. 'Humanity is expressive desire' - Godhead is not. Each of us humans is hardwired with particular desires that lead us along paths into the futures....Some we cannot ever give up (without a societal meltdown of one sort or another) since they actually form the basis for who we define ourselves to be (within our societal context) and what our life mission is. For those desires we have already decided to accept the suffering inherent, because the desire is worth it to us. Because we love that thing, because we love the suffering the pain and the death - since it is worth it for the joy and the success.....we love The Experience and what it reveals to us.

Quote:

I bet if Jesus had lived a full life though, he would've eventually became old, judgemental and condescending




He already was - just look how he treated the market sellers in the the church. Hardly show the other cheek eh?

Human I guess - and the pinnacle of humanity is a well mastered, well applied ego working in tandem with the Godhead. Suffering for the sake of The Experience and humanity, succeeding for the sake of The Experience and humanity. Learning all the time - peace will only come with the death much loved; or in acceptance of the maze we travel and the ups and downs that are unavoidable as we follow our hearts

Or I could be completely wrong - I don't know I'm a a stupid human with a lot of desires....some things I can accept, some I cannot....feeling the peace except when I need to unaccept to carry out my end of the bargin and do my work :wink:....though realising this and overall accepting that I am me, and I am...you are...we are.....peace is being me and accepting that, know thyself....Peace is accepting all the different people and energies and their glory, even if I must fight in order to be me, and accepting that...know thy fight :wink:

Acceptance does not deny you to be yourself, acceptance means you understand the duality that does exist is perfect and that the suffering and joy are necessary and that you will be you none-the-less. Being your character in the story, yet also being able to step back and see the storyboard as the author does - knowing that without being yourself, there would be no story. That without those (things) you must fight, there would be no you.....the death much loved would be here already, but it is not yet the time to enter that particular nirvana...certain desires must be wrought from the chaos

accept yourself

majik


--------------------
booohooohoooohoooo


Edited by cubed (05/09/05 11:48 AM)


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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4154386 - 05/09/05 07:36 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
Hunter S. Thompson




Thompson- a modern day Jesus, minus the bullshit.






:lol: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4155686 - 05/10/05 02:01 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

This whole thread=The section in Birth of Tragedy where Nietzche pans Buddhis. It's no surprise Ravus is qouting him so much.

I'll take Buddha's side on this one. I think his description of 'pleasure' as simply changing suffering is pretty heavy stuff. It's like when you are on the stair master and the resistance drops for a little bit, it feels good because the pain you were just experiencing is lessened to some degree but it only lasts a short time before the resistance goes back up. Buddha says that true happiness is permanent and not dependent on external stimuli. Samsarric happiness is kind of like being a Heroin junky, it never lasts, you constantly need more, and you feel like shit if you don't get what you want. That is no way to live.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Edited by Divided_Sky (05/10/05 02:31 AM)


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4156111 - 05/10/05 04:25 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Wow, this is a great thread... my head feels like popping, just trying to put my thoughts together.

These are two of my favorite philosophies... and I'm a bit conflicted. I always like to think there's room for both, as both philosophies serve different purposes.

I teach a lot of Buddhism here at The Shroomery, but I really am a closet Nihilist.

War, drama, passion, rejection, creativity, technology, sex... damn man, Nihilsm reflects humanity at its most human.

I love the simple complexity of Buddha's teachings. They aren't bullshit, and thinking Buddha thoughts makes for WONDERFUL entheogenic trips... I point people to the "Tibettan Book of the Dead", ALL the time, if they are looking for beginner tripping advice. I also, think the Buddhists are on to something, when it comes to the ego.

I feel Buddhism is an elegant old-world Philosophy, representing man in a enlightened, animal state. Core beliefs of Buddhism are similar to many old-world religions and philosophies which came before and after it. I think it is human nature to search for a Buddhist-like Nirvanna (like returning to the womb)... but it is also human nature to create and evolve into new philosophies.

On that note, an enlightened man does not just sit around being all blissed out. Well, they get to do that for a while (I'd want to enjoy heaven on Earth for a while too) but eventually, most enlightened folks come back to reality, while remaining enlightened. They help the unenlightened world through their enlightened eyes.

However, it seems humanity is rapidly evolving beyond Buddhism. And, at the rate technology is growing, we're always on the brink of something profound. If everybody became enlightened tomorrow, humanity would ultimately take a few steps backward. Of course, in an unenlightened world, there's always the chance we'll blow ourselves up!

Buddhism sure is a tidy way of looking at the world, though.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Rose]
    #4156903 - 05/10/05 12:00 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Yes I think the Buddha is top notch.

I think there is a certain amount of relativity that must be applied tho - and even the Buddha does that.

For instance if one were to take the 'overcome desire and suffering will end' line to its logical extreme one would starve oneself as one gave up the desire for food. The Buddha never suggested to go this far though - he really suggested a marshalling of desire and a kind of ratings system. To find the middle way using the eightfold path.

In order to exist in life one must forge out the future, even if one is following the 'right livelihood' - success in that livelihood is what one will aim for and success takes desire.

....but the eightfold path never mentions 'right desire'.....however even those building the monastries and heading for  nirvana hold desire to reach those goals.

It is the desire that leads from the path that causes the problems - unmarshalled desire. Sensual desire and it's opposite, aversion, running amok and ruling us. Our mindfulness failing and then we being left no longer able to make a decision based in soul but instead the decision comes from ego.

However I'm not too comfortable with that definition of ego...since those with an evolved ego will work in tandm with their souls...ego is not bad it is necessary. Ego and Soul can be the best of friends and this is surely the way to proceed. All the 'death to the ego!' stuff is very silly and actually undermines your birth. The way I see it partnership is the way forward, and those wioth an evolved ego hold a point of view that looks to the longer term, their egos do not run amok at the first sign of temptation....their egos work semlessly with soul, enjoying the pleasures thrown to them, even enjoying the suffering because Soul shines through and always working as an agent of Soul to bring Love to Earth.

The ego must be looked after to a certain degree, even the Buddha does so in life, for the ultimate form of ego is the person we are, the body and mind we inhabit, and until this is gone (ie death) there is always ego. There is always I.

Some people spend their lives beating themselves up trying to destroy their psychological ego, often setting up a psychological super ego in themselves that punsihes the ego and oversees. This seem crazy - and the suffering is doubled through unacceptance of the basic fact that as a human one is an individual lifeform amongst the whole.

Ally the ego to the Soul and let them make friends. This way the Soul looks after the ego, but the ego is not spoiled....and the ego learns to move on and exist in a world of impermanence - - seeing through the duality - - seeing through the game we play - - but equally knowing its role in the game.

Just think of playing a board game like Monopoly (or any game) - notice how some people play and accept the wins and losses - taking the ride. Whilst others cannot handle the losses.....fuming away until they start loosing their temper.....bad sports = overactive ego

good sport = well managed ego


.....you also notice that good sports will quite naturally be good sports because they are keyed in with Soul and automatically listen to the depths of their being in which they are the Whole.

Now it seems to me that even those whose egos are out of control are perfectly fine because they make up such important characters in the story of being which we are all wrapped up in. Humanity and Life itself is discovering itself and those people are an important part of the equation - we all learn from this crazy experience in which there is always a balance. Good and Bad meet in us all and in the world at large - they are always there - and hence the balance is always there and perfect - If the balance of all energies was not there the universe would somehow crumble awy in an instant.

Seeing the balance, yet being one tiny bit of energy following a certain course within it.....knowing there is necessary negativity out there balance your necessary positivity and vice versa. And even in oneself one will see this effect since one is a reflection of the whole.

Everything is kool and all the bad in the world is kool - but that doesn't mean you should be bad. It just means you know....

Peace


Babble babble babble :laugh:


--------------------
booohooohoooohoooo


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4157665 - 05/10/05 03:20 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

This whole thread=The section in Birth of Tragedy where Nietzche pans Buddhis. It's no surprise Ravus is qouting him so much.




That's kind of odd, because I never read the Birth of Tragedy to my knowledge. All quotes I've used are isolated Nietzsche quotes copied from the ethernet, but I use them because Nietzsche phrases my mindset beautifully.

I don't like Nietzsche because I follow him, as I disagree with him on many points, noticeably that the Overman will overcome Nihilism. I like Nietzsche because he an innovative philosopher and beautiful writer who came to many of the same basic observations as I do.

And if you've read Nietzsche, you'll notice I either contradict him or digress completely from his beliefs many times. He was a good thinker, but he was no Buddha. :wink:

Quote:

Samsarric happiness is kind of like being a Heroin junky, it never lasts, you constantly need more, and you feel like shit if you don't get what you want.




Why does Samsaric happiness end?

1) Chaos and death destroy the objects of our Samsaric desire.
2) Time and change ruin our pleasure for simple beliefs and objects.

We can either say that chaos and change destroy the objects of our desire, or destroy the way we desire, but either way it is our frustration at destruction that makes us unhappy. If we stopped focusing on being attached to useless objects and people that will die in our lifetime, and focus on that which will never leave us before we die, how could we ever loose our peace? If we find peace and love inside the chaos and death that destroys these simple, impermanent materialistic and emotional objects, then we will never find suffering- even in suffering itself.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


Edited by Ravus (05/10/05 03:39 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4157672 - 05/10/05 03:21 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I would die for him.. :smile:


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: The Buddha was a Fraud [Re: Ravus]
    #4160277 - 05/11/05 02:04 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:


Why does Samsaric happiness end?

1) Chaos and death destroy the objects of our Samsaric desire.
2) Time and change ruin our pleasure for simple beliefs and objects.

We can either say that chaos and change destroy the objects of our desire, or destroy the way we desire, but either way it is our frustration at destruction that makes us unhappy. If we stopped focusing on being attached to useless objects and people that will die in our lifetime, and focus on that which will never leave us before we die, how could we ever loose our peace? If we find peace and love inside the chaos and death that destroys these simple, impermanent materialistic and emotional objects, then we will never find suffering- even in suffering itself.




Thats budism detachment from the chaos, from the destruction, from the materialistic stylised bull shit. Let it burn let it rot let it blow away. Seperation from these things bring freedome.


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