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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Registered: 07/07/04
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The Fall of Reason
    #4146362 - 05/07/05 02:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

This is for the scientific folk. An attempt to explain mysticism, and show that it is reasonable after all. My arguments presented here are totally reasonable, in my opinion, which brings me straight to the heart of the matter?reason is relative, and contemporary understanding of it as something objective and strictly scientific is portraying it in a very misguided manner.

Plato speaks of "unprejudiced reason", but can reason truly be separate from our humanity? Perhaps if humanity were perfect, but alas, we are not. We argue *for* and *against* ideas because we hold emotional attachment to them; perhaps not even emotion, so much as an innate quality of subjectivity, innate to humanity and the very framework of the universe itself. Moral questions cannot be definitively and objectively answered like math equations; answers cannot be regarded in isolation from the persons arriving at them, nor from the contexts of such persons.

Humanity has evolved considerably during its stay on Earth, and today we find ourselves far removed from our natural beginnings in civilizations of convention. The natural facets of our beings have largely been relegated to the subconscious, dominated instead by a system of reason that considers only an empirical context.

Do we even know ourselves? How many people lie to themselves daily and relegate their true feelings to their subconscious? How much natural knowledge do we keep locked away there? And most importantly, how can we regain it if we ignore its intuitive manifestations, rejected by the very premise of our contemporary system of reason?

There is cause and there is effect. Many 'unreasonable' things occupy our thoughts constantly, such as emotions, gut feelings, or strange impulses and sensations we cannot make sense of. If we consider only empirical effects, only symptoms that are tangible and measurable, then how can we hope to understand these things that dance outside the box of reason? These unreasonable things exist and cannot be reasonably explained, at least thus far. Perhaps we should expand our definition of reason to consider subtle causes that may shed some light on subtle effects who's existences we must not deny.

The very root of our interaction with this world is one of experience, and experience is innately subjective. How can we presume to base our worldly understanding on objective reason? No wonder we feel so alienated from reality. Science dismisses all that which it cannot explain with its clumsy tools. Objective reason is self-authenticating...after all, such is only reasonable. ?I think therefore I am? is a rightly provable statement, but ?I am therefore I think? is more reflective of the actual order of the cause and then the effect.

Convention and the ego are also self-authenticating. Anything created exists to the extent it was created and is believed in. If I tell a lie I create a misrepresentation of reality, which exists in the form of a misrepresentation. The objective idea of fallacy in contrast to truth has lead to illusion being regarded as non-existent, which it clearly is not. Illusions of mind exist, and science must learn to acknowledge their existence. *This* is reasonable.

Intuition is indeed not based on anything concrete, assuming that things are either concrete and existent or illusory and non-existent; but this is not the case. What this is, is a grave error of duality, of thinking in terms of either/or.

What is more 'tangible' than what we directly experience, than intuition itself? If we consider only empirical causes then we will never understand subtle effects, for in the chain of causation by which the universe runs, every effect is also a cause. We must stop denying subtle causes and repressing subtle symptoms, and instead strive to understand subtle causes and unravel the scientific mysteries surrounding subtle effects. Negative symptoms are best cured by inspecting their causes, not treating the symptoms themselves.

Few "mystical" traditions deny the rule of cause and effect, and the illogical connotation attached to mysticism is not generally valid. The light of reason, which is essentially just, must be shined upon itself, upon the idea of reason itself. The context within which reason operates must be expanded, if reason is to be saved. That is, if it is to be saved in humanity's understanding of it, for the universe will forever be reasonable. If we cannot understand the universe, it does not become unreasonable. Nor is mysticism unreasonable just because we refuse to understand it.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4146475 - 05/07/05 03:01 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

reason is relative, and contemporary understanding of it as something objective and strictly scientific is portraying it in a very misguided manner.
Reason is not relative and subjective. Do not all cars work on the same principle? Does your car or computer run on a different set of physics than mine? No!

The natural facets of our beings have largely been relegated to the subconscious, dominated instead by a system of reason that considers only an empirical context.
Reason doesn't squelch natural instinct. You are erroneously commingling society with reason to make a non-existent point.

Science dismisses all that which it cannot explain with its clumsy tools.
Dismisses? It does not tackle that which is not subject to test and verification.

Clumsy tools? What then are the elegant tools of mysticism?

...and experience is innately subjective
Loosely, but not really true. Our senses are basically the same. However, our interpretation of similar events may be miles apart.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4146520 - 05/07/05 03:08 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What it comes down to for me is that nothing can be known definately. Even if we have scientific proofs these can only be based on the extent of our current knowledge and that is always wanting.

Some people think that if they stick to the "facts" they will somehow have conquered the unknown. They have only closeted thenselves within their personal bubble of perception and looking at their own reflection think they have found the "truth"

Mystiscism is as real as anything else, and as false. It is always subjective and personal. I can say I intuit it or have seen and felt things that prove it. But unless I can demonstrate it, why should anyone else believe it.

All of these problems stem down to one thing I think. If each person quit telling everyone else what reality is and allowed for the fact that no one knows the whole truth. Then we could share our ideas without having to defend our own position. We might progress a lot faster that way, alone and together. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Icelander]
    #4146670 - 05/07/05 03:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"Reason is not relative and subjective. Do not all cars work on the same principle? Does your car or computer run on a different set of physics than mine? No!"

True. But do cars exist? To what extent does reality exist as we understand/perceive it? Yes, human-made conventions operate on common principles, but what of the premise on which we create convention? Convention is indeed concrete, and more objective than what is fundamental and natural. But you're talking about modern day cars...what about all cars of the past and future? In all of time? Maybe then cars work on different principles. So the underlying premise of time must be exanimed. And lo and behold, time is just a linear understanding of timeless non-locality. The laws of physics are similar manifestations. It's easy to say that all things on the same level of the spectrum of reality operate on the same level. But when the fundamentals are considered, this level becomes relative. What of each piece of the impermanent car, once the car has been dismantled? Or after all its pieces have disintegrated into dust and reassembled into something entirely else? Do all 'cars' still work the same way? What is a 'car' if not a temporary state of the stuff of the universe?

"Reason doesn't squelch natural instinct. You are erroneously commingling society with reason to make a non-existent point."

When people guide their lives and actions by strict reason, then they limit their options of possible actions and courses to take. Sometimes only the first step is intuitively apparent and the answer lies hidden, so reasonably this first step that ends in ambiguous mystery cannot be taken.

"Dismisses? It does not tackle that which is not subject to test and verification."

Test and verification with specific tools that are only capable of testing and verifying a limited array of things, when reality is comprised of many other things that science cannot test.

"Clumsy tools? What then are the elegant tools of mysticism?"

Clumsy insofar as testing and verification of subtle things is concerned. Scientific tools serve their purpose, and so do mystical tools serve their own purpose. The two should become less mutually exclusive, however. Tools of mysticism include foresight, astral travel, reading knowledge straight from DNA, etc etc etc; there are a great many, dare I say an infinite many.

"Loosely, but not really true. Our senses are basically the same. However, our interpretation of similar events may be miles apart."

If our interpretations differ, how can we be sure our senses are the same? We must assume this? Or strive to prove it scientifically from a premise which assumes this?


Edited by the_phoenix (05/08/05 02:33 AM)


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4147887 - 05/07/05 08:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Your arguments, Swami, are circular as I have explained. Convention is self-authenticating. Or to put othewise, illusion and fallacy exists insofar as it promotes itself; it is not natural or innate. My argument is also circular, in that I sight this Outside as evidence and because of it, what I say is true. It all depends on this Outside that I accept and you deny. The universe is fractal in nature and all arguments are essentially circular...the different is, the context I promote, whos infinite circumfrence I illustrate here, is much larger than your limited and defined context.

To expand to a more general and all-encompassing context, to break out of the self-authenticating scientific loop that gets us nowhere, faith is needed. One must lead with an open mind accepting all possibilities, gather experience, and then see what works and what doesn't; establish the context of belief after accumulating experience. One could instead lead with belief in a closed-system context, taking in experience from a biased perspective that does not allow for all possibilities, and ultimately the original premise will be reconfirmed. What a surprise! I can try and convince you all day that the Outside exists, but unless you entertain the possibility and re-experience and re-evaluate things for yourself, you will never believe, because disbelieving in the outside lends itself to a perfectly logical chain of causality. But where yours has holes in it, mine does not...you say science will eventually explain these holes, while I say the answers are already available...but again, you must open your mind to believe what is already here. Only you can take this step, nothing I say can do it for you. It is a matter of perception, after all.

Sorry for not being too clear. This is a complicated subject and I'm in a huge hurry. Hopefully I'll re-read what I wrote here in the future and try to write something more concise, but right now I must finish six essays for school.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4148860 - 05/08/05 01:48 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

great post phoenix

"When people guide there lives and actions by strict reason, then they limit their options of possible actions and courses to take."

"to break out of the self-authenticating scientific loop that gets us nowhere, faith is needed"

there's a difference between fact and value. but BOTH things are important: reality and the meanings we give it.

also mysticism comes first. perception and interpretation aren't distinct. rationality has an implicit value system. 'look at things the most parsimonious way.' it's a fruitful value system: medicine, the internet are the products of rational knowledge.

mysticism can be fruitful too. depends on what it's used for. im not going to try to make a plane fly by casting a spell on it. i might meditate to clear my mind. or take drugs and realize how connected i am with things i never thought of. then afterward hopefully im nicer and less pretentious: a positive mystical outcome.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Swami]
    #4149434 - 05/08/05 08:33 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Reason is not relative and subjective. Do not all cars work on the same principle? Does your car or computer run on a different set of physics than mine? No!



What you always seem to miss in this example, is that life is about more than cars and computers alone. Reason is used in other contexts than engineering. What reason will entail is dependent on the situation, much like any other word.

Quote:

Dismisses? It does not tackle that which is not subject to test and verification.



Science sticks with what works, and ditches what doesn't work. Test and verification are a relative thing, because the methods for testing - and, likewise, whether something can be verified - change with time.

Quote:

Loosely, but not really true. Our senses are basically the same. However, our interpretation of similar events may be miles apart.



The senses don't matter nearly as much as what one chooses to focus on. Interpretation only enters the picture after selective observation.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4149441 - 05/08/05 08:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

phoenix, I always find these discussions less easy in English than I would Dutch, because we have two words in Dutch to describe the outside world:

Werkelijkheid
The 'objective' reality, that which is.

Realiteit
The 'subjective' reality, that which is experienced/commonly agreed upon to be.

As far as I know, there is only one word in English for this: reality.

I think an important part in coming to a common consensus about philosophical or other realities is developing a language that can be used to describe every field of knowledge. So far, no such language exists.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineDoom
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4149541 - 05/08/05 09:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

? so its easier because you have to say one less word? oh the laziness of the dutch never ceases to amaze.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4149699 - 05/08/05 11:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The second someone shows me some predictive value in mystical mumbo-jumbo I'll start paying attention.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4149716 - 05/08/05 11:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think the problem is how myticism is defined. In my definition science is included in mysticism. Einstein though so too I believe. Everything is very mystical. You replying to this topic, it's mysticical to me. The fact we are all made from exactally the same stuff on the atomic level and yet we feel seperate and have very different perceptions of life. That's mystical. The fact that no one can find ultimate answers to hardly anything is mystical. Not one thing that is, is not mystical to me.

Mysticism gets its bad name from people who pretend they are mysical because they don't really believe or see that they really are. So they are always spouting some nonsense about there amazing powers and trying to sell the gullible all that insecure nonsense. They cannot see the mystical in every step they take.

Lets each define it for ourselves and realize that defination is subjective. It doensn't have to agree in detail with anyone else but you must realize the same is true for them.  :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDroz
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Icelander]
    #4150444 - 05/08/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How many reasons are there to being inevitable?
You can always spend time reason with things that are already at reason.
For that being the reason itself to argue.

Or one could always skip reason and think of things in logical terms. Subjectivety is like biased emotions. As with one reason for never arguing about it things would have to become objective.

So what is the clear difference between objective and subjective?


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Doom]
    #4150710 - 05/08/05 07:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

so its easier because you have to say one less word?



No, having two words causes less confusion, in turn making conversation easier. It's akin to explaining what type of snow you are looking at to an Inuit in English.

Quote:

oh the laziness of the dutch never ceases to amaze.



Seems you are easily amazed. I'm not Dutch. Are you English because you speak it?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineDoom
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4152050 - 05/09/05 01:40 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Alan;

Id like to meet these peers of yours who so easily confuse the words *subjective* and *objective*. I would rap my skeleton cane pon their noughtly brittle skulls.

So you*re not Dutch? big deal, Im not impressed with that boast whatsoever.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Doom]
    #4152256 - 05/09/05 03:00 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Swami, how many people have taken you up on the ol' Swami's Rock to the Back of the Head Experiment?

Sure, everything is relative... until you feel the rock hard truth of objectivity.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Doom]
    #4152305 - 05/09/05 03:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Id like to meet these peers of yours who so easily confuse the words *subjective* and *objective*. I would rap my skeleton cane pon their noughtly brittle skulls.



Point me to the phrase I use to say my peers confuse them.

Quote:

So you*re not Dutch? big deal, Im not impressed with that boast whatsoever.



Which boast is that? I'm Belgian if you must know. Belgium has two official languages: Dutch (60% of the population) and French (40%). German is also an official language in a small part of our country, which isn't large to begin with, but isn't required for government officials.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #4152307 - 05/09/05 03:36 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sure, everything is relative... until you feel the rock hard truth of objectivity



The debate was on reason, not objectivity. No amount of violence will change that.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4152325 - 05/09/05 03:51 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Is this post about the fall of reason, the value of mysticism, both, neither?

"The very root of our interaction with this world is one of experience, and experience is innately subjective."

how we experience is both objective and subjective. we live in an objective world, but we sometimes percieve it in a subjective way. if you show a car to someone whos never seen a car before, they probably won't say "its a car" (in whatever language), but that has no say on the where abouts of the car. this is not subjective.

now the person you show the car to might understand its use once it sees what it can do. this is reason, is it not?

You can be a depressed person standing right next to a happy go lucky person. Both stand in the same objective world, but live in a different subjective world.

"How can we presume to base our worldly understanding on objective reason?"

explain to me what you mean by "objective reason" Is this making decisions based upon what happens?

"Science dismisses all that which it cannot explain with its clumsy tools."

now remember, clumsy is your own interpretation. your subjective view. Science doesn't dismiss it, it says "I don't know, lets run more tests before saying anything is definite" Sure many jump the gun in science, just like many jump the gun in mysticism.

I agree that we need mysticism just as much as we need the science, both should help as well as keep the other in check.

"?I think therefore I am? is a rightly provable statement, but ?I am therefore I think? is more reflective of the actual order of the cause and then the effect."

neato! I like this, its a different way to look at things. so what you are saying then, is that we shouldn't readily dismiss; but does readily accepting do just as much damage? what about a balance between the two?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4152334 - 05/09/05 03:54 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"The debate was on reason, not objectivity. No amount of violence will change that."

the debate has a lot to do with objectivity

he said..."The very root of our interaction with this world is one of experience, and experience is innately subjective. How can we presume to base our worldly understanding on objective reason?"

thats a huge part of his argument, which he has a couple of.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Fall of Reason [Re: kaiowas]
    #4152459 - 05/09/05 04:51 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, brain fart. Realised it after I re-read the first post.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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