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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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faith and children
    #4133639 - 05/04/05 06:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I can see most people here see faith as useless

But doesn't every parent ask his child to have faith in his words?
For example, you say to your 8 year old child, don't walk that streets at night, someone might hurt you, or kidnap you

A child has no way of knowing that there is a possibility of that unless it walks streets every night and waits for someone to hurt him, that way he would know there is a possibility of that

Or you say to your child: whenever I go with my car in the morning I go to work. The child is 3 years old and barely understands what work means, and it can't go following the parent that far, so the parent expects the child to have faith

So all of you who think faith is always stupid, what do expect in the relationship between a parent and a yound child? Should the child use logic to visualize an entire working day of his father? Or use logic to know someone might hurt him on street?

Mind that this child does not know people hurt people so his logic is useless, nor does the other child know that people have to do something for living. Both kids have very little information, and all they can do is trust their parents.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4133676 - 05/04/05 06:39 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You've made a very good argument. This is proof that you should not believe everything your parents tell you, because some of it might be bullshit and you have no way of knowing..

Apply the same to blind "faith" in any given religion.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4133679 - 05/04/05 06:39 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

My parents had faith in my good person. They let me do as i pleased and fallow my own lifes path. They had faith in me and faith in that i am a good person.

My friend sheldon wrote a book called healing the hole in the heart of the world. It is all about raising children a certain non demeaning way.


--------------------




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InvisibleSwami
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4133733 - 05/04/05 06:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I can see most people here see faith as useless...

False conclusion. Many here see faith in ancient teachings and church leaders to have no value. Rearing children is an entirely different dynamic.

Why would you compare children to adults and religion to survival and learning the ways of the world? Your example holds no water.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: faith and children [Re: Swami]
    #4133797 - 05/04/05 06:58 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

so by most does that mean your ego decides to categorize your selfas above others?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: faith and children [Re: Swami]
    #4133829 - 05/04/05 07:08 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I can see most people here see faith as useless...

False conclusion. Many here see faith in ancient teachings and church leaders to have no value. Rearing children is an entirely different dynamic.

Why would you compare children to adults and religion to survival and learning the ways of the world? Your example holds no water.




this is about some finding the relationship between god and man illogical (a conceptual, or imaginary god if you will) because it is based on trust. So if such a god existed he would ask you to trust him, just as a parent asks his child to trust him


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: faith and children [Re: Swami]
    #4133845 - 05/04/05 07:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I can see most people here see faith as useless...

False conclusion. Many here see faith in ancient teachings and church leaders to have no value. Rearing children is an entirely different dynamic.

Why would you compare children to adults and religion to survival and learning the ways of the world? Your example holds no water.




and as for adults vs. children

Adults are just a bunch of children that think they have "grown up"
The reason why they think is because they are now surrounded by equals that run the world, and not "older" people.
As a child can not understand coplex math, so we now can't understand other misteries of the universe, that is why we get sick and die after 70 years, and that is why we have never moved beyond moon


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4133849 - 05/04/05 07:13 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

IMO believing in god isn't based on trust.... It's based on one's ability to be influenced by notions of fantasy, and to place trust in those interpreting the belief, while having faith in god that he will direct them properly.

People don't naturally, well... I take that back, people shouldn't naturally trust a Church, or a religious organization.

However, it is certainly natural for a child to have trust in their parents (until they prove otherwise that is).


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: faith and children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4133892 - 05/04/05 07:21 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Forget about church now, I'm talking about the concept of biblical god and his relationship to man

Or is you discussion only limited to what is real without a doubt?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4133915 - 05/04/05 07:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I can flex a bit :smile:.

That's still putting Faith in god, I don't know how to call it trust... either way, putting trust/faith into something that sometimes helps ya, and sometimes fucks ya, will kind of help you on your way to developing bi-polar disorder.

An adult is a tangible being... god isn't, it's much easier for a child to trust and have faith (dunno how you choose to use the word faith) in their parent as they're real + biology tells them to trust them (at least initially); whereas we're not sure if god is real, and nothing tells us to trust in god except other humans.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (05/04/05 07:28 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: faith and children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4133935 - 05/04/05 07:31 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yes but biblical god sent his "son" and has shown himself by performing miracles to the old jews, so if that was so he was as real to them as a father to you and me is,
but I'm not talking about the existence of god, just the things he is talking about, for example the stuff about afterlife, this is where trust kicks in


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4133978 - 05/04/05 07:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

... Same thing with a child and a parent and one concept beign absolutely material, and the other merely conceptual (at best).

If a parent tells a child about an event, what their going to be doing for their b-day for example, the child will most likely believe them... as they have a solid relationship, a foundation of trust, and faith/trust was already established in the past as a result of the "family bond".

Now, if you tell a kid about god and all that shit, the afterlife, this and that... and all the fantasy, all the ideals, good and evil, talking snakes, etc... the whole deal, the kid will be mesmerized, and won't really question the belief that much due to having trust/faith in your word as a result of your relationship. So in a sense their trust/faith may eventually lie wholly in the belief, but the reasoning for it being established in this scenario is from the belief gaining credibility from the established relationship.

:shrug: that's why some kids are so stupid, they believe everything they see on TV :smile:. We sell them one form of fantasy that is based on faith and a lack of reason.... tv offers the same... IMO it just creates far too much confusion; let them find the belief, don't give it to them.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: faith and children [Re: Swami]
    #4134021 - 05/04/05 07:47 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I can see most people here see faith as useless...

False conclusion. Many here see faith in ancient teachings and church leaders to have no value. Rearing children is an entirely different dynamic.


Why would you compare children to adults and religion to survival and learning the ways of the world? Your example holds no water.




Totally agree :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: faith and children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4134027 - 05/04/05 07:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yea some cartoons make idiots of some kids
For example a friend of mine in elementary school (he was about 2nd-3rd grade) actually thought moon is made of cheese, and he was serious about it.

anyway, your point of view is subjective, you are considering it to not be based on trust because you assume it is fantasy, bu that's where trust is asked: to believe it is not fantasy.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/04/05 07:50 PM)


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4134041 - 05/04/05 07:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Even if you take my perspective out of the argument, it still contains elements of fantasy by way of the assertions not being proven (we are talking about faith right?). I can tell a kid with a good grasp of language damn near anything and they'll believe me, as I can sell them convincing BS... plus I know how to establish trust verbally and via manipulation of body language, beyond those aspects the child will believe something on the basis of them not having the full capacity to judge the validity of the statement.

I can try the same bullshit on an adult, it only works half the time. :smirk:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: faith and children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4134068 - 05/04/05 08:01 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

logic only applies in situations like this:

all apples are red

this is an apple

=

this is red

But when someone tells ya: when you die you go to heave
there is no way to apply logic to that


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/04/05 08:01 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4134118 - 05/04/05 08:13 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
I can see most people here see faith as useless

But doesn't every parent ask his child to have faith in his words?
For example, you say to your 8 year old child, don't walk that streets at night, someone might hurt you, or kidnap you

A child has no way of knowing that there is a possibility of that unless it walks streets every night and waits for someone to hurt him, that way he would know there is a possibility of that

Or you say to your child: whenever I go with my car in the morning I go to work. The child is 3 years old and barely understands what work means, and it can't go following the parent that far, so the parent expects the child to have faith

So all of you who think faith is always stupid, what do expect in the relationship between a parent and a yound child? Should the child use logic to visualize an entire working day of his father? Or use logic to know someone might hurt him on street?

Mind that this child does not know people hurt people so his logic is useless, nor does the other child know that people have to do something for living. Both kids have very little information, and all they can do is trust their parents.




I don't think most see faith as useless. The question is what do you choose to have faith in. Blind faith sucks IMO.

My first take on your post is. OK he's really talking about faith in religious doctrine again. Oh Boy, here we go. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4134125 - 05/04/05 08:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Yes but biblical god sent his "son" and has shown himself by performing miracles to the old jews, so if that was so he was as real to them as a father to you and me is,
but I'm not talking about the existence of god, just the things he is talking about, for example the stuff about afterlife, this is where trust kicks in




And I scroll down to this ^. :shocked: How did I know? :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/04/05 08:16 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: faith and children [Re: Icelander]
    #4134140 - 05/04/05 08:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm just trying to take the weaker side, If christianity was the theme of the forum I'd bitch against it


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: faith and children [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4134236 - 05/04/05 08:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That's nice. :smirk: Seems like a broken record though. I have been continually amazed at how much christanity gets played out here on the Shroomery. I guess I was expecting something else when I joined up. Silly me. :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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