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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Anyone notice...
    #4124461 - 05/02/05 07:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The similarities between the opium wars involving China and primarily Britain...

And the connections to the drug trade today?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=opium+wars

Gotta love artificial price inflation to gain more revenue.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124559 - 05/02/05 08:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

No


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4124576 - 05/02/05 08:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:lol: Ok, well try to notice the similarities between the economics involved then, humor me. :smile:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124624 - 05/02/05 08:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Show me, instead of just linking to a google search page. Make a point.
With, you know, facts to back it up. Like an essay. Premise, exposition, conclusion. That kind of thing. You can do it if you try.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4124726 - 05/02/05 08:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You can research and get to the point if you try as well...

Although If I recall you prefer to bitch and moan rather then to look anything up and draw your own conclusions.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 27,904
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124760 - 05/02/05 08:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How about this...

How does the modern day drug war compare to the opium war? In the opium war Britain was pushing opium to the Chinese for money and when they tried to stop it because it was destroying the population, Britain attacked them.

So, this is analogous to today because Columbia is supplying drugs to us, and if we try to stop it they will declare war on us?

Or we declare war on them because they are pushing coca on the US? Is that what you are trying to say?

That doesn't really seem to fit the picture either. IMO the opium war is nothing like the modern day drug war. The conflict is within the US, its more of a "civil culture war"


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: DieCommie]
    #4124803 - 05/02/05 09:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

No, the drug war isn't isolated to the US.

We declare war on them, yet help them, and allow many oppurtunities for the drug trade, its a fleecing of an idea, not an actual tactic.

I was tying the inflation that resulted of opium's illegal nature, and how it benefited those supplying the opium, and made it far more profitable as a result of the legality.

Same thing with the drug war, and their is no way with stopping drugs, they've been with us since the advent of human civilization, and shall remain with us. Their is no stopping it, and the futile hopes to stem the drug trade only serve to worsen the situation.

Kind of like the war on terrorism... We create more terrorists through our preemption (USA), and only further that which we fight rather then stem terror... both are counter-intuitive approaches.

Its similar because by making drugs illegal it provides a greater motivation to trade drugs, and to sell them through high profit, where responsible legalization would stem all the issues with is on so many levels.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124822 - 05/02/05 09:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
You can research and get to the point if you try as well...

Although If I recall you prefer to bitch and moan rather then to look anything up and draw your own conclusions.




Once again, you offered up an idea but refused to support it in any way. I will not bother looking for this unicorn either but, if you think you have found it, please, enlighten us all with the scintillating analysis that is sure to flow from your fabulous intellect. You know, premise, exposition, conclusion. You can do it. Otherwise it has no more interest than, "Anyone ever notice that if you switched a turtle's head with it's tail it would swim backwards?"
And about as much value.


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InvisibleDieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 27,904
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124824 - 05/02/05 09:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I dont think so.

People (ie govt) support the war on drugs because they think it is right. They think all drugs are bad, and that using is a sin. It an ideology, not a business tactic.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: DieCommie]
    #4124834 - 05/02/05 09:09 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The majority do believe that is the reason. However when you look at policy, its impact and comparative models regarding legalization you'll realize that they are vastly lacking in rational as to which approach is best. Their are greater motivations in terms of monetary incentives that are at work.

Political policy and money are married unfortuanetly.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 27,904
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124867 - 05/02/05 09:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:Political policy and money are married unfortuanetly.


So the president, governers, local sherrifs etc. are getting money from the drug trade? If that were the case wouldnt they want small penalties for drug usage/selling so the trade can continue? Locking up a user means he isnt going to be contributing to the trade. Stiff penalties indicate ideological belief not financial motivation.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: DieCommie]
    #4124882 - 05/02/05 09:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:yesnod:

Perhaps not directly, but they are supported by the infrastructure at work.

Cops get paid to fight it.

The president gets paid to fight it, and creates numerous organizations fighting against it to support idealogies, and further pleases the crowd that gained him his presidency (in terms of polls, not electoral college)

Same thing with governors.

Additionally you can talk about kick backs and shady business dealings that are a direct result of the system in place. The current system involving drugs support corruption by creating it through laws.... odd how it works out.

Then you have to think about other possible reasons and venues for not legalizing it due to legal alternatives, applications, covering taxes, etc...

For instance, growing tobacco is illegal in california, yet one can legally buy it.... ~its bullshit.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: DieCommie]
    #4124913 - 05/02/05 09:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The British were the one's profiting from the opium trade and the Chinese were the ones who wanted to make it illegal. The people profiting were not the people who wanted the prohibition. Keep trying.

Let's follow this. The British were making a fortune selling opium to the Chinese, even though it was illegal for them to sell it to their own people. The Chinese leaders saw that opium was killing their people. They tried to stop the trade. The British went to war to continue the trade. It seems to me that the corrolaries to the British are the Drug lords and the corollaries to the Chinese are the American and other governments who wish to stop the drug trade. Of course the similarities break down pretty rapidly when you note that it is the prohibitors declaring war this time as opposed to the suppliers then. So, no, there is no similarity and any one you might manufacture is essentially nonsensical. Prohibition drives up the price but makes for a harder sell. The suppliers in neither case want prohibition whether or not it drives up the price. If you're arguing that the British wanted the Chinese to prohibit the opium then why did they go to war to continue to be able to sell it?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124931 - 05/02/05 09:28 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
:yesnod:

Perhaps not directly, but they are supported by the infrastructure at work.

Cops get paid to fight it.

The president gets paid to fight it, and creates numerous organizations fighting against it to support idealogies, and further pleases the crowd that gained him his presidency (in terms of polls, not electoral college)

Same thing with governors.

Additionally you can talk about kick backs and shady business dealings that are a direct result of the system in place. The current system involving drugs support corruption by creating it through laws.... odd how it works out.

Then you have to think about other possible reasons and venues for not legalizing it due to legal alternatives, applications, covering taxes, etc...

For instance, growing tobacco is illegal in california, yet one can legally buy it.... ~its bullshit.




All those people would get paid regardless.  And have plenty to do as well.  And the scummy stuff is exactly the reason why the prohibition should go.  But there is no similarity to the Opium war at all.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4124933 - 05/02/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't make a direct comparison, however I'm suggesting an analogy beyond the economics of the situation. Glad you decided to look it up.

Their are multiple sides that perhaps didn't necessarily want prohibition, but they used it to their benefit, including many american parties (organization tied to the skull and bones conspiracy shit, were in that trade).

Same thing with alcohol prohibition. Many didn't want it, but their is a huge benefit to it, that otherwise wouldn't have existed if the situation didn't present itself.

A simple solution would be legalization based on harm reductions models, and licensing systems, it would lift the economic burden that we face on many levels.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4124944 - 05/02/05 09:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Their is a great similarity if you look to the other parties after the subsequent war, and the motivation tied to illegal manufacture and distubition as a result of legality. Further the inflation associated with drug costs is what makes it so prominant in our society.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4125007 - 05/02/05 09:41 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Their is a great similarity if you look to the other parties after the subsequent war, and the motivation tied to illegal manufacture and distubition as a result of legality. Further the inflation associated with drug costs is what makes it so prominant in our society.




Are you saying that drug usage is greater because it is expensive?
(By the way, I didn't look it up. I remembered the gist of the conflict. That's why I couldn't figure out what you were trying to get at.)


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4125027 - 05/02/05 09:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, sorry, I'm not always specific :smile:.

Drug use exists due to the feeling involved; however often times drugs are used by people to look like bad asses breaking the law. The inflation and the money associated with it creates "pushers" as their profit is based on sales, if it wasn't for others directly advocating their use and pushing drugs, a lot less people would seek them out.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
Re: Anyone notice... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4125067 - 05/02/05 09:51 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not sure I believe that the agressiveness of drug sellers has a greater plus effect on drug use than the fear of prosecution has a negative effect. My suspicion is that if prohibition were to end there would be a very short term increase in drug use and then it would level off to about where it is now. The net positive effect would be that we wouldn't be throwing people in jail for nonsense and we could save the enforcement money and even tax the product, thus freeing revenue fior productive measures, like lowering my fucking taxes.


--------------------


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Anyone notice... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4125106 - 05/02/05 10:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Agreed, however I do attribute a large increase in its sale through pushers. I've known many in the past, I make the distinction between dealers in pushers as well.

Dealers; Sell drugs, make connections, and don't push their product unless someone wishes to engage in the act prior to their involvement.

Pushers; Sell drugs, manipulate the users, string them along, get them hooked, and profit from them.

Don't forget about not burdening the prison system, informing the public about moderation through use, and teaching people to think objectively as a result of what is known. Versus subjective reports that are biased and force results through chemical manipulation of receptors.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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