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Offlinedr0mni
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selective acknowledgment
    #4110860 - 04/29/05 01:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Those who refuse to the truth in a concept riddled with fallacies are just as ignorant as those who accept those fallacies for absolute truth.

I just took a look at the thread about the "glaring problem with the bible"... I really hate it how people automatically put it down as "ignorant, primative, fairy-tale, etc." Religious scriptures are multi-dimensional and complex (obviously). They are the result of a bizarre human existance that we all share, and reflect aspects of each and every one of us.

Religions aren't based on scientific/logical facts, they are based off of human experiances and interpretations of those experiances. But this doesn't mean that science and religion negate each other. Just because the "facts" don't match up doesn't make the meaning of the ideas any less valid or relavent.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: dr0mni]
    #4110882 - 04/29/05 01:50 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Just because the "facts" don't match up doesn't make the meaning of the ideas any less valid or relavent.

But when the Bible states in clear, matter-of-fact wording something that is patently false, like the Noah/Rainbow myth, it renders the rest of the book suspect at best. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: Diploid]
    #4110930 - 04/29/05 02:06 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Just because the "facts" don't match up doesn't make the meaning of the ideas any less valid or relavent.

But when the Bible states in clear, matter-of-fact wording something that is patently false, like the Noah/Rainbow myth, it renders the rest of the book suspect at best. :shrug:




Only to someone stuck in a very suspect mode of thinking.

To someone who thinks in a loose metaphorical way, the bible is chock full of useful information despite it's extremely flawed factual content.

But that's just my opinion... what do I know...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4110993 - 04/29/05 02:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

To someone who thinks in a loose metaphorical way, the bible is chock full of useful information despite it's extremely flawed factual content.

How is proclaiming homosexuals as abominations, in a loose metaphorical way of course, 'useful information'?

How about the requirement that women in church not speak and if they have questions, they should ask their husbands later at home?

Or the sanctioned selling of daughters into servitude?

Or the sanction of wars and assorted other killings?

Or the inflicting of diseases and pestilences on entire populations, including children?

Or the requirement that adulterers be executed?

Or the murder of Lot's wife when she looked the wrong way?

The list goes on and on...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: Diploid]
    #4111054 - 04/29/05 02:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah seriously. A lot of the loose metaphorical morals in the Bible are also really antiquated and terrible. A lot of them aren't. I don't particularly care for the Bible but I really don't have any beef with it unless you start interpreting it as fact.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4111628 - 04/29/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

No need to justify archaic beliefs. If a book that claims it contains the infalliable word of god.... yet contains contradiction, after contradictions... Then is the god really worthy of your respect/admiration especially as your "God" makes more flaws in the course of one book then most men do?

A result of this is that the Bible has to interpret it's way out of trouble, or change through man's hand. Both have, and will continue to happen countless times.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: Diploid]
    #4111634 - 04/29/05 05:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You're quoting, over and over, the factual content... which I just said was extremely flawed.

How is proclaiming homosexuals as abominations, in a loose metaphorical way of course, 'useful information'?

Adding 'in a loose metaphorical way' to a factual analyzation does not mean you're analyzing the book metaphorically. You're still analyzing it factually.

What i meant by metaphorical value was more along the lines of how the story of Jesus can be taken as a metaphorical template on which to base your own life. This involves such basic things as unconditional love.

The same metaphorical thinking can be applied to numerous different books from different religions.

This kind of metaphorical thinking needs to be combined with analytical thinking in order to avoid such presumptions as "well if it's in the bible, it must be true!"


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: dr0mni]
    #4111645 - 04/29/05 05:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
1) Religions aren't based on scientific/logical facts, they are based off of human experiances and interpretations of those experiances.

2) But this doesn't mean that science and religion negate each other. Just because the "facts" don't match up doesn't make the meaning of the ideas any less valid or relavent.




1) Exactly why separation of Church and State should actually exist... considering religions are primarily based on fantasy, we should treat it as such. Unless we want to base our laws on fantasy and attempt to stick with the same old methods that don't work.... shit, we've tried that, look where it's getting us.

2) Actually it makes them a lot less relevant. I can tell you that I came from Jupiter and have a shitload of advanced technology for time travel, and blah blah blah.... However if you know the facts of my life, in respects to the fabrications I tell you, it overall would give myself as a person less credibility.... kind of like the bible  :shocked:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/29/05 05:43 PM)


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4116478 - 04/30/05 10:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

deleted* double post


Edited by dr0mni (05/01/05 01:10 AM)


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4116496 - 04/30/05 10:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Quote:

dr0mni said:
1) Religions aren't based on scientific/logical facts, they are based off of human experiances and interpretations of those experiances.

2) But this doesn't mean that science and religion negate each other. Just because the "facts" don't match up doesn't make the meaning of the ideas any less valid or relavent.




1) Exactly why separation of Church and State should actually exist... considering religions are primarily based on fantasy, we should treat it as such. Unless we want to base our laws on fantasy and attempt to stick with the same old methods that don't work.... shit, we've tried that, look where it's getting us.

2) Actually it makes them a lot less relevant. I can tell you that I came from Jupiter and have a shitload of advanced technology for time travel, and blah blah blah.... However if you know the facts of my life, in respects to the fabrications I tell you, it overall would give myself as a person less credibility.... kind of like the bible  :shocked:.




Science is also based on human experiance and interpretations of those experiences. Lots of scientific theories turn out to be bunk, but they are all a part of the human imagination and interpretation of self awareness. Now we look at our world through the experiance of the past.

Lots of terrible things happened throughout history. The spiritual human experiance is full of pain and suffering, ignorance, and bloodshed. Why should the word of God not speak of these things if the hand of God is making them so.

Social codes change over time. So has the bible. When Islam was created it actually afforded women many rights that had not existed in tribal-Arabian culture until then. Now muslim women are thought of, by most of the world, as oppressed.

Science and religion are both just human interpretations of self aware consciousness. They are both looking at the same thing! Why not try expressing one in terms of the other?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: dr0mni]
    #4116516 - 04/30/05 11:04 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
Those who refuse to the truth in a concept riddled with fallacies are just as ignorant as those who accept those fallacies for absolute truth.

I just took a look at the thread about the "glaring problem with the bible"... I really hate it how people automatically put it down as "ignorant, primative, fairy-tale, etc." Religious scriptures are multi-dimensional and complex (obviously). They are the result of a bizarre human existance that we all share, and reflect aspects of each and every one of us.

Religions aren't based on scientific/logical facts, they are based off of human experiances and interpretations of those experiances. But this doesn't mean that science and religion negate each other. Just because the "facts" don't match up doesn't make the meaning of the ideas any less valid or relavent.




:thumbup:  :sun:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4116526 - 04/30/05 11:06 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You said religion is based on fantasy, and your statement itself is a fantasy because you have no access to such information, so all you could do is imagine it


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4116540 - 04/30/05 11:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Following your logic, if I read you clear, nothing can be known about anything for sure and so ultimately debate is pointless.

Right on!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4116723 - 04/30/05 11:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

True... but fantasy can become reality.... Religion can't do that, unless you're prone to delusional thinking of course.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: dr0mni]
    #4116768 - 05/01/05 12:15 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

No need to double post, one message is enough :wink:. (I've gotten quadrupple posts before :sad:)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Quote:

dr0mni said:
1) Religions aren't based on scientific/logical facts, they are based off of human experiances and interpretations of those experiances.

2) But this doesn't mean that science and religion negate each other. Just because the "facts" don't match up doesn't make the meaning of the ideas any less valid or relavent.




1) Exactly why separation of Church and State should actually exist... considering religions are primarily based on fantasy, we should treat it as such. Unless we want to base our laws on fantasy and attempt to stick with the same old methods that don't work.... shit, we've tried that, look where it's getting us.

2) Actually it makes them a lot less relevant. I can tell you that I came from Jupiter and have a shitload of advanced technology for time travel, and blah blah blah.... However if you know the facts of my life, in respects to the fabrications I tell you, it overall would give myself as a person less credibility.... kind of like the bible  :shocked:.




1) Science is also based on human experiance and interpretations of those experiences. Lots of scientific theories turn out to be bunk, but they are all a part of the human imagination and interpretation of self awareness.

2) Lots of terrible things happened throughout history. The spiritual human experiance is full of pain and suffering, ignorance, and bloodshed. Why should the word of God not speak of these things if the hand of God is making them so.

3) Social codes change over time. So has the bible. When Islam was created it actually afforded women many rights that had not existed in tribal-Arabian culture until then. Now muslim women are thought of, by most of the world, as oppressed.

4) Science and religion are both just human interpretations of self aware consciousness. They are both looking at the same thing!




1) I fully agree, I've made many statements in my posts about how fallacious science is, and how blind adherence shouldn't be given.

2) Did I say it shouldn't? I'm saying to keep religion and law seperate. I'm not advocating the elmination of religions on a political level; only on a personal one :smirk:.

3) God's word has changed more often then Bush's agenda. For a word so perfect... it's odd how it's so subject to change in the face of destruction, and new levels of technology. I'm not saying that everything in the good ol' book is bad, however much of it is irrelevant, and the belief of intolerance generated by it is ridiculous in light of Jesus's rendition as to how we should be tolerant of others. Jesus says to be tolerant, to love others, yet their are many, and I do mean many direct contradictions to his mantra. The damn thing would be better off reformated, and taken for its teachings, rather then its mandates. The bible has lasted a loooong time by changing, not for its same ol' message.... why not change it and make it fully relevant in regards to modern times, and modern views of equality and human rights?

4) Yup. Science overall, however looks, analyzes, and views human consciousness. Religion overall mandates a certain form; for lack of better words, it mandates lifestyles to get a piece of the heavenly pie that is salvation. Science puts no restrictions on human behavior, and acceptance/tolerance thereof as part of its premises, although some of its adherents do. Religion does the opposite.

It is why I'm suggesting that it doesn't belong in the sphere of legal influence one bit... It can be taught, preached, looked upon, but shouldn't be allowed to impose mandates, especially as we are not in a country with homogeneous views as to our morality... such that, we shouldn't allow subjective parameters entailed by the tenants of a religious book to influence those that don't choose to believe in it. I'm merely expressing a desire for an objective government that promotes full tolerance by not allowing its hands to be stained by beliefs. Rather it should have as a dominating influence the direct promotion of equality and freedom, instead of morality and subjugation.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4117006 - 05/01/05 01:27 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"You said religion is based on fantasy, and your statement itself is a fantasy because you have no access to such information, so all you could do is imagine it"

No, I said that religion is based on subjective human experiance, JUST LIKE science. But if that is what you mean by "fantasy" then yes, everything we all say, think, believe, and do, is a "fantasy". Some people like to say that "reality is an illusion"...

"3) God's word has changed more often then Bush's agenda. For a word so perfect... it's odd how it's so subject to change in the face of destruction, and new levels of technology. I'm not saying that everything in the good ol' book is bad, however much of it is irrelevant, and the belief of intolerance generated by it is ridiculous in light of Jesus's rendition as to how we should be tolerant of others. Jesus says to be tolerant, to love others, yet their are many, and I do mean many direct contradictions to his mantra. The damn thing would be better off reformated, and taken for its teachings, rather then its mandates. The bible has lasted a loooong time by changing, not for its same ol' message.... why not change it and make it fully relevant in regards to modern times, and modern views of equality and human rights?"

The true word of god IS changing everyday; the world around us is a manifestation of Gods Word. "Perfect" is a hyperbole, and should never be used literally. Those who say that the Bible, or any other scripture is "perfect" are just as close minded as those who say that science is "Perfect". Every generation there are new thinkers, prophets, scientists, and spiritual leaders that reinterperet the truth of God into words and wisdom that fall upon the ears of fools who abuse it. My advice? Find truth for yourself, whether it's from a book, a prayer, a mantra, and especially if it if from a personal spiritual experiance.

"Following your logic, if I read you clear, nothing can be known about anything for sure and so ultimately debate is pointless."

YEAH! You get it!


Edited by dr0mni (05/01/05 01:29 AM)


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: selective acknowledgment [Re: dr0mni]
    #4117037 - 05/01/05 01:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Think OldWoodSpecter was calling me out on that.


What all the believer's say when contradictions are brought about.... Let an archaic belief system go... you needn't have it to sustain your way of life... Nor do you need to utilize it to give your life any form of meaning. I've just seen countless attempts throughout the past, as well as the present of people attempting to save an old dying belief, when they don't truly need it to sustain anything about their existance.

Change and progress... are all about destruction, as much as they are about creation. Their is no need to alter the good ol' book so many times, and have it fall on its ill logic to sustain its validity, nor others interpretations of it... their is no need to hang on to something so fallacious unless you like to intentionally delude yourself, and dilute your sense of rational.

"Following your logic, if I read you clear, nothing can be known about anything for sure and so ultimately debate is pointless."

Not with any form of absolute certainty... however thats going a little bit to far suggesting that debate is pointless as a result of it. Debate and challenging old and new notions leads to progress in the pointless effort to "know"... it's actually far from pointless in reality, but as to the end result in the process to "know", it is unachievable, and pointless as a result to that intention. Just as it is unachievable to be good in everyones eyes, to be perfect in your own eyes without a flaw... does that mean that you find it pointless to try to achieve it? Don't know what you're inferring by that. I'm merely pointing out limitations that exist, not suggesting that you should limit yourself.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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