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Invisibletahoe
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Hypothetical Genetic Question
    #4108053 - 04/28/05 05:40 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

Forgive me if my terminology is wrong but i hope to explain myself well enough so that you understand.
Lets say you have a 3x3' section of colonized substrate that wont fruit, not due to environment but due to genetics.Now you add to this the same strain of mycelium but with better genetics that will fruit. If you add this to one area will the whole thing fruit or just the area that it was added to. I know it will at least use the nutrients from the whole area but do the genes travel throughout the whole mycelia mass?


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Offlinexburn
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4109409 - 04/29/05 12:11 AM (19 years, 24 days ago)

some types of mycellium set up "cell walls" with chitin. They ar enot truly cell walls but they dont allow the nucli to move only nutrients and cytoplasm. I think i remeber this from my biology book.

When mycellium shaes DNA is when a - spore and a + spore germinate and there hypae find eachother and join to create a hypae mass or as we know it mycellium.

since we're not dealing with single nuclie hypae but rather dual nucli mycellium i dont think it would. Purly because the sexuall reproduction doesn't happen this way.

I could be wrong, but i think i am i right.

i guess this is comprable to grafting in plants. same nutrients different DNA


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Invisiblekorins
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4109557 - 04/29/05 01:22 AM (19 years, 24 days ago)

I'd suspect it would depend on the specific mutation(s) inhibiting fruiting. If the responsible gene(s) say code for a hormone that signals and synchronizes fruiting in all connected mycelium are rescued, perhaps a sufficient amount of transplated 'healthy' mycelium can restore this function. Frankly, it's hard for me to imagine a large chunk of mycelium fruiting all together, cyclically(:mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow:), as is commonly observed, without some molecular 'master control switch' being distributed inter-cellularly. :shrug:

Give it a shot and post results.  :thumbup:

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: korins]
    #4109910 - 04/29/05 04:11 AM (19 years, 24 days ago)

He's not talking about mutations. He's talking about sections of mycelium which can't fruit because they haven't exchanged genetic material sexually. But fuck if I know much about this.... I've been wondering the same thing myself--at what point can mating no longer happen...?

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OfflineAeolus1369
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4110305 - 04/29/05 09:12 AM (19 years, 24 days ago)

I'm not sure what role genetics would play in a small area not being colonized. If the same mycelium (even if it's from a multi-spore, it's similar genetics) colonized the rest of the substrate, how could it be anything but environmental factors? Maybe I'm not quite following you.

But to answer your question: No, genes will not travel through the mycelia in the sense you're talking about

---------------------------------
Edit:

Ok, I obviously misread the question. My assertion was merely that even in a multi-spore inoculation, the genetics would probably not be so different that a specific portion of the substrate wouldn't colonize--hence it's due to environmental factors. However since this isn't what he was even talking about, nevermind.

Edited by Aeolus1369 (04/30/05 12:44 AM)

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Invisiblekorins
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4110484 - 04/29/05 10:03 AM (19 years, 24 days ago)

Of course he's talking about mutations. He's talking about the genetics of the mycelium that has lost the ability to fruit (hypothetically).

mutation: A change of the DNA sequence within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.

The parent strains of this mycelium presumably had the ability to fruit (depending on species), and lost it at some point. Genetics could be wholly responsible for this and thus mutations.


Quote:

tahoe said:
do the genes travel throughout the whole mycelia mass?




This is what seems to be confusing people. Genes are probably not intentionally shared among mycelial cells. If the fruiting phenotype is rescued in the whole mycelial mass, then signalling molecules/hormones are most likely responsible.

As an aside, does anyone know the limit in size at which an interconnected mass of mycelium can no longer syncronize it's fruiting; there must be one.
Also, if anyone can think of a plausible alternative mechanism for synchronizing fruiting, I'd like to hear it.

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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: korins]
    #4110985 - 04/29/05 12:24 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

korins said:
As an aside, does anyone know the limit in size at which an interconnected mass of mycelium can no longer syncronize it's fruiting; there must be one.





Here's my best take:
It's not the mass, per se, that introduces ansynchronicity but a varied environment experienced by a larger network. Why would a large network want its entire surface fruiting if only a percentage is experiencing optimal conditions? By this logic, the size requirement for asynch. would wildly vary. Also, assuming there is some max. mass induced asynch., I would strongly suspect the value to be variable by individual species.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #4111187 - 04/29/05 01:12 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Aeolus1369 said:
I'm not sure what role genetics would play in a small area not being colonized.




He didn't say not colonized. He said colonized but non-fruiting.

Quote:


If the same mycelium (even if it's from a multi-spore, it's similar genetics) colonized the rest of the substrate, how could it be anything but environmental factors?




First of all, there can be a huge difference in genetics among the different spores generated by a single fruit body. Generally offspring are similar to their parents but their genes are anything but standardized to the degree necessary to determine what is and isn't from environmental factors.

But, the point here really is that in a multi-spore inoculation only some of the mycelium will be able to fruit. This is due to sexual nature of cubensis reproduction and is unavoidable. I am far from an expert on this but bust out your copy of TMC and check out the section on mushroom genetics before you think you can contribute to this conversation. I'm not being a dick, but correct me if I'm wrong, you just don't seem to know much about what you're trying to talk about.



[^^where the fuck did that horizontal rule come from? I can't make it go away.]^^

Just a taste [TMC pg. 338]:
Quote:


In a tetrapolar fungus, only one fourth of the spores from any one mushroom are fully compatible with any random spore from that same strain. This mechanism exists to encourage outcrossing. When a cultivator is trying to produce a strain from a spore print, establishing a fruiting strain can be frustrating. This is because monkaryotic hyphae with common A factors or with common B factors can fuse and form dikaryons, and these dikaryons can even make convincing looking clamp connections.... These colonies, however, are incapable of fruiting.





Having said that, I don't think those "illegitimate" regions of mycelium will undergo any further change since they already mated.

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Invisiblekorins
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: debianlinux]
    #4111386 - 04/29/05 02:08 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

About my side question: I should have been more clear; I was still hypothesizing optimal (non-factor) environment across the entire mycelial network. For example, imagine a large casing under perfect fruting conditions. How large could it get before the fruiting is no longer synchronized?

BTW, I do agree that this would vary among species and even isolates. I wasn't really looking for an absolute figure, maybe an observation that confirms that I'm thinking abouth this correctly. Any intelligent input is welcome.

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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: korins]
    #4111524 - 04/29/05 02:49 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

korins said:
How large could it get before the fruiting is no longer synchronized?




I continue to assert that such an ideal environment uniformly experienced by a monolithic network would remain synchronised.

The practicality of actually achieving this would be inversely proportional to the size of said network

Imagine, say, a 100sqft casing. Theoretically, with enough engineering and attention to detail, one could provide a uniform environment. I'm not so certain such conditions could be precisely administered to say, 1000sqft and certainly not to something on the order of 10000sqft. There's just too much room for natural environmental turbulence, but in some ideal bizarro perfecto world it could be done.

I think that possibly, even in bizarro perfecto world, things like the curvature of the earth or external weather patterns or spatial relationship to the moon would dictate a maximum synchronous size.

Is there a max synch. size? Yes, absolutely!
Are the variables and factors far to diverse to determine an even remotely valid and reliable estimation? I think so.

Edited by debianlinux (04/29/05 03:05 PM)

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: debianlinux]
    #4111544 - 04/29/05 02:54 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

Interesting read about how large of a network could work together, in some sort of fungus anyway.

http://www.extremescience.com/largest-fungus.htm

Doesnt really apply to anything here but I just came across that today and its interesting :smile:


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Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4111571 - 04/29/05 03:02 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
Doesnt really apply to anything here but I just came across that today and its interesting




i find it very relevant.

this one of my favorite factoids to throw at laypeople when i'm talking fungi.

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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: korins]
    #4111720 - 04/29/05 03:46 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

korins said:
Of course he's talking about mutations



No i am not, I am talking about a single cell, sterile i guess until it mates.
AS for giving it a shot, i wouldnt want to waste my time making a big ass outdoor bed with something that wouldnt fruit.
Its just me being paranoid about all my work for outdoor beds and them not fruiting. Most of them will have some sort of multispore inoculation mixed into them so i know there will be plenty of variation for fruiting but damn i will be sad if they dont.


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4114092 - 04/30/05 08:59 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

in response to the original question.

no, already present cells will not change their nucleus through contact with other cells. just like cubensis would not turn into paneolus if their myc came in contact. sorry, DNA does not transfer like that, its not possible. however various signal substanses and RNA could hypothetically be transfered. ( i dont really know enough about myc to absolutely assert this. but, unless it works in a completely different way from other organisms, it should).

so if its not fruiting because of a basic genetic flaw. it will reamin like that. if its not fruiting because of lacking some kind of signal substance... it might fruit.


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4114101 - 04/30/05 09:02 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

oh.... thats more or less what the others said... sorry, should'v read it all before posting. :blush: :blush:

oh well, next time.


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Wiccan_Seeker said:
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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4117929 - 05/01/05 07:12 AM (19 years, 22 days ago)

It's amazing how many people around here don't even have a rudimentary knowledge of mushroom genetics....

*sigh*

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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4118470 - 05/01/05 11:33 AM (19 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
It's amazing how many people around here don't even have a rudimentary knowledge of mushroom genetics....

*sigh*



including yourself


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4118571 - 05/01/05 12:11 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

And what's your basis for saying that?

As I said, I don't know that much about mushroom genetics. But that is basic shit--mushrooms reproduce sexually and therefore exchange genetic material. It effects every grow directly.

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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4118811 - 05/01/05 01:29 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

The mating of hyphal threads is the sexual mating, that si where the combined chromatid 2d DNA begins to be produced in the nucleui of the mycelial cell. This produces the fruiting ability. Thus, some spores can contain chromatids that are more genetically prone to fruiting, and some contain chromatids that are less prone to fruiting and more prone to whatever the opposite characterisitc is.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: SoopaX]
    #4118871 - 05/01/05 01:54 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

Yeah, I know. That's what I said.

Just seems like half the people who replied to Tahoe's original message didn't know that. Which is why everyone kept talking about mutations.

[Edit: Actually I don't really understand what you mean when you say "some spores can contain chromatids that are more genetically prone to fruiting, and some contain chromatids that are less prone to fruiting and more prone to whatever the opposite characterisitc is." Of course some might have genes which favor fruiting for whatever reason but as I understand it, the reason some sections of mycelium cannot fruit is because at the hyphal mating stage, they either don't mate at all or mate with an incompatible type.]

Edited by ChuangTzu (05/01/05 02:00 PM)

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Offlinexburn
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4119649 - 05/01/05 05:07 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

it means mushroom tissue only exchange genetics when a spore germintates and sends out hypae. when + and - meet they combine nucli and thats what creates mycellium. Myceliium has no genetic transfer if it meets another hypa or mycellium


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InvisiblePinback
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: xburn]
    #4119979 - 05/01/05 06:17 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

This is from the Shroomery FAQ:

"Hybrids can also be formed by Anastomosis between two dikaryons of different Strains, but it will happen at Far less frequency then mating monokaryons.

Anastomosis occurs at a higher frequency between substrains of an individual strain. I.E. between different spore matings resulting from a single syringe. When you multispore inoculate a jar of substrate, this is Happening with a high degreee of frequency. A dominant mating will fuse with other matings, incorporating them into it's mycelial network. It can even rewire a false mating into a good mating. It can overcome an incompatible mating, by replacing one of the nuclei within another strand with one of it's own.
"

I suppose it is harder to tell if this will have any actual effect in a large bed without mixing etc.

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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Pinback]
    #4122321 - 05/02/05 06:36 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

what!?!

look, the sexual reproduction is when the spores (possibly from various strain, substrains, or just from the same cap) in a multispore inoc, combine to form hypae-mycelium. that much is logical.

but if i understand what you are quoting from the faq, differing individual myc/hyp can also exchange their core genetic material. is that correct? if so its completely bizzare and illogical, what would define wich type takes over the other. it completely defeats the purpouse of sexual reproduction.

if that is true a non fruiting variation with strong tendency to transfer genes, could take over other strains (within the substrate) and thus ending not only its own, but also the other substrains evolutive pathways.

now i have more than enough to read already and dont really fancy digging into this. so please. if someone has a clear insight into the genetics and breeding, do shead some light on the subject (and reference it please).


--------------------
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Invisiblemushrx1
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4122380 - 05/02/05 07:37 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

That's a real genetic question, and yes it is hard to wrap your head around. fungi don't obey mendelian genetics. You have to remember that they're in their own kingdom, with it's own rules. They're heterotrophs with 1 dimensional growth. They've come up with unique systems to survive. Some look/act like bacteria (single cell, yeasty things), and some differentiate into pseudovascular rhizomorphs. Due to limited attention and technology, we're (science community) just now starting to delve into these creatures. Fungi can be polynucleic, even multiple karyotypes, like plants. "Fitness" in the Darwinian sense would rule out a dominant non-spore producing strain, theoretically (limiting genetic diversity). But look at all the fungi imperfecti- all asexual reproduction (no sexual phase known, hence imperfect). Mutations still occur in modular growth forms (like a cloned plant sporting an unusual branch), ensuring some diversity, and theories exist (Halliday et al.) that fungi can incorporate other organisms genetic material for temporary use. we don't know what turns all genes on and off, but we know that we don't know why we have so many "silenced" genes even in our own genome. We just haven't gotten that far, especially with fungi. We're just beginning to question how they function.

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Invisiblemushrx1
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: debianlinux]
    #4122392 - 05/02/05 07:52 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I think there are some kinds of bamboo that will synchronously flower across the globe- even when the'yre thousands of miles away. The whole clone will just flower, even though it's been dug up and transplanted in hundreds of places. I wish I knew how that works. :smile:

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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4123125 - 05/02/05 11:45 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

a spore will germinate to form a monokaryon(single haploid nuclei). When this monokaryon comes in contact with another monokaryon that has a different haploid nuclei(different mating factors) they combine to form a dikaryon( a hyphae with Two seperate haplopid nuclei existing under a single cell. No fusion or exchange of genetic material occurs. The cell is sharing two seperate haploid nuceli.

Anastamosis is when two DIKARYONS come in contact, that are compatable, and they fuse. The hyphae fuse, not the nuclei. This can occur between two fruiting strains, and also between a fruiter and a non fruiter. But NOT ALL will fuse.

The sexual stage of cubensis is when the nuceli FUSE to form a Diploid nuceli, that undergoes meiosis, to form 4 haploiid spores.


The notion that you would rewire a large nonfruiting colony of mycelium by introducing a small fruiting colony is Borderline absurd. For every cell that is non-fruiting, a new nuclei would have to be replaced, or both. There is no hormone that will turn a nonfruiting cell into a fruiting cell. There is only an exchange of non- compatable nuceli, with compatable nuclei.

A1B1 A2B2 encounters A1B1 A1B2 if and when they fuse, the A1B2 nuclei is replaced with A2B2, so now you have a a non fruiting cell A1B1A1B2 converted to A1B1A2B2, and it too now can fruit. That is rewiring via anastamosis. The actual noncompatable(partially Compatable) nuclei has been replaced with a compatable nuclei.

Best advice I can give is to either multispore your substrate to gurantee a fruiter colony, or use a known producing CLONE to inoculate the substrate.

Anastamosis might be a viable option to potentially bring together two different dikaryons from two different strains( long shot), or more probable two different substrains of the same strain. But I would restrict this too Agar culture, and breeding programs.

Easier system would be Monokaryon Dikaryon mating or monokaryon to monokaryon mating for breeding programs.

SEXUAL REPRODUCTION in mushrooms only occurs in the basida, it is very fast, and results in 4 haploid spores.

Monokaryon mating is not sexual reproduction, it is an asexual act, that just brings two compatable, or partially compatable haploid nuceli under a single cell to make it a diakryon. TWO seperate nuclei working together under a single house to make things happen. Not until the nuclei fuse in the basidia, do you have sexual "relations".

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Offlinexburn
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: EonTan]
    #4123476 - 05/02/05 01:21 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

i wonder if all the pandas around the world are happy at that moment too


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: xburn]
    #4127086 - 05/03/05 09:06 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

wow! :shocked: thats really wild. unfortunately it now seems i WILL have more to read. this is really facinating. i knew that fungi are wierd stuff, but i had no idea they were this wierd with more than one nucleus. :nut: thanks alot.

any recomendations on good texts on fungal biology?


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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4127123 - 05/03/05 09:16 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Visit the shroomery bookstore. Plenty of good reads available.

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Offlinepluteus
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: EonTan]
    #4128962 - 05/03/05 05:52 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

A key question raised in this thread is:

Can a 'transplanted' mono- or dikaryon donate invasive nuclei that selectively replace one of either of the fully sexually compatible nuclear types present in an established dikaryon?

Several posts have described this notion as absurd. EonTan's version of events, which I think is the most comprehensive, will only allow for the "exchange of non-compatible nuclei with compatible nuclei." I agree with this, but would like to point out there are other avenues of genetic interaction available to interfacing di-, hetero- and monokaryons apart from wholesale nuclear exchange. For instance, selective partial parasexual recombination between strains to provide one or both with selectively advantageous genes HAS been strongly implied in experiments using several different model basidiomycete species. For example, see:

Beeching, JR, Ainsworth, AM, Broxholme, SJ, Pryke JA and ADM Rayner (1989) Investigation of genetic transfer between strains of the basidiomycete, Stereum hirsutum, using molecular and morphological criteria, New Phytologist.

This is obviously highly relevant to the original query about a transplanted strain 'donating' fruiting competency to a non-fruiting mycelium (although I must say the query was phrased in confusingly ambiguous terms, genetically speaking).

How about that then? Although this particular phenomenon of partial selective genomic hybridization is very poorly studied / understood, it is clear that nuclear associations in basidiomyetes frequently deviate from the 1:1 ratios observed in stable dikaryons, and the genetic factors causing imbalanced nuclear ratios have been partially unravelled.

But there's another interesting issue that's been touched on here, in terms of what happens in a multispore inoculation scenario using spores from different fruitbodies. Let me make the question explicit. A monokaryon, A1B1, encounters a dikaryon, A2B2 A3B3. What then determines which of the dikaryon's nuclear types, both of which are fully sexually compatible with the monkaryon, actually dikaryotizes the monokaryon?

???

(It's not random)

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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: pluteus]
    #4133872 - 05/04/05 05:17 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

You raise a very interesting question about which nuclei would be exchanged in a situation where both nuclei in the frutiing Dikaryon cold be compatable nuclei. I would imagine it would be random, but I can imagine it might not be too. :smirk:

At some level the nuclei of the non fruiter would have to be altered(recombined), or replaced, or bypassed( having more then two nuceli present, 1 non compatable, and two or more compatable present).

pluteus :thumbup:

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