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Offlinexburn
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4119649 - 05/01/05 05:07 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

it means mushroom tissue only exchange genetics when a spore germintates and sends out hypae. when + and - meet they combine nucli and thats what creates mycellium. Myceliium has no genetic transfer if it meets another hypa or mycellium


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InvisiblePinback
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: xburn]
    #4119979 - 05/01/05 06:17 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

This is from the Shroomery FAQ:

"Hybrids can also be formed by Anastomosis between two dikaryons of different Strains, but it will happen at Far less frequency then mating monokaryons.

Anastomosis occurs at a higher frequency between substrains of an individual strain. I.E. between different spore matings resulting from a single syringe. When you multispore inoculate a jar of substrate, this is Happening with a high degreee of frequency. A dominant mating will fuse with other matings, incorporating them into it's mycelial network. It can even rewire a false mating into a good mating. It can overcome an incompatible mating, by replacing one of the nuclei within another strand with one of it's own.
"

I suppose it is harder to tell if this will have any actual effect in a large bed without mixing etc.

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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Pinback]
    #4122321 - 05/02/05 06:36 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

what!?!

look, the sexual reproduction is when the spores (possibly from various strain, substrains, or just from the same cap) in a multispore inoc, combine to form hypae-mycelium. that much is logical.

but if i understand what you are quoting from the faq, differing individual myc/hyp can also exchange their core genetic material. is that correct? if so its completely bizzare and illogical, what would define wich type takes over the other. it completely defeats the purpouse of sexual reproduction.

if that is true a non fruiting variation with strong tendency to transfer genes, could take over other strains (within the substrate) and thus ending not only its own, but also the other substrains evolutive pathways.

now i have more than enough to read already and dont really fancy digging into this. so please. if someone has a clear insight into the genetics and breeding, do shead some light on the subject (and reference it please).


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Invisiblemushrx1
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4122380 - 05/02/05 07:37 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

That's a real genetic question, and yes it is hard to wrap your head around. fungi don't obey mendelian genetics. You have to remember that they're in their own kingdom, with it's own rules. They're heterotrophs with 1 dimensional growth. They've come up with unique systems to survive. Some look/act like bacteria (single cell, yeasty things), and some differentiate into pseudovascular rhizomorphs. Due to limited attention and technology, we're (science community) just now starting to delve into these creatures. Fungi can be polynucleic, even multiple karyotypes, like plants. "Fitness" in the Darwinian sense would rule out a dominant non-spore producing strain, theoretically (limiting genetic diversity). But look at all the fungi imperfecti- all asexual reproduction (no sexual phase known, hence imperfect). Mutations still occur in modular growth forms (like a cloned plant sporting an unusual branch), ensuring some diversity, and theories exist (Halliday et al.) that fungi can incorporate other organisms genetic material for temporary use. we don't know what turns all genes on and off, but we know that we don't know why we have so many "silenced" genes even in our own genome. We just haven't gotten that far, especially with fungi. We're just beginning to question how they function.

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Invisiblemushrx1
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: debianlinux]
    #4122392 - 05/02/05 07:52 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I think there are some kinds of bamboo that will synchronously flower across the globe- even when the'yre thousands of miles away. The whole clone will just flower, even though it's been dug up and transplanted in hundreds of places. I wish I knew how that works. :smile:

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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4123125 - 05/02/05 11:45 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

a spore will germinate to form a monokaryon(single haploid nuclei). When this monokaryon comes in contact with another monokaryon that has a different haploid nuclei(different mating factors) they combine to form a dikaryon( a hyphae with Two seperate haplopid nuclei existing under a single cell. No fusion or exchange of genetic material occurs. The cell is sharing two seperate haploid nuceli.

Anastamosis is when two DIKARYONS come in contact, that are compatable, and they fuse. The hyphae fuse, not the nuclei. This can occur between two fruiting strains, and also between a fruiter and a non fruiter. But NOT ALL will fuse.

The sexual stage of cubensis is when the nuceli FUSE to form a Diploid nuceli, that undergoes meiosis, to form 4 haploiid spores.


The notion that you would rewire a large nonfruiting colony of mycelium by introducing a small fruiting colony is Borderline absurd. For every cell that is non-fruiting, a new nuclei would have to be replaced, or both. There is no hormone that will turn a nonfruiting cell into a fruiting cell. There is only an exchange of non- compatable nuceli, with compatable nuclei.

A1B1 A2B2 encounters A1B1 A1B2 if and when they fuse, the A1B2 nuclei is replaced with A2B2, so now you have a a non fruiting cell A1B1A1B2 converted to A1B1A2B2, and it too now can fruit. That is rewiring via anastamosis. The actual noncompatable(partially Compatable) nuclei has been replaced with a compatable nuclei.

Best advice I can give is to either multispore your substrate to gurantee a fruiter colony, or use a known producing CLONE to inoculate the substrate.

Anastamosis might be a viable option to potentially bring together two different dikaryons from two different strains( long shot), or more probable two different substrains of the same strain. But I would restrict this too Agar culture, and breeding programs.

Easier system would be Monokaryon Dikaryon mating or monokaryon to monokaryon mating for breeding programs.

SEXUAL REPRODUCTION in mushrooms only occurs in the basida, it is very fast, and results in 4 haploid spores.

Monokaryon mating is not sexual reproduction, it is an asexual act, that just brings two compatable, or partially compatable haploid nuceli under a single cell to make it a diakryon. TWO seperate nuclei working together under a single house to make things happen. Not until the nuclei fuse in the basidia, do you have sexual "relations".

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Offlinexburn
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: EonTan]
    #4123476 - 05/02/05 01:21 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

i wonder if all the pandas around the world are happy at that moment too


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: xburn]
    #4127086 - 05/03/05 09:06 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

wow! :shocked: thats really wild. unfortunately it now seems i WILL have more to read. this is really facinating. i knew that fungi are wierd stuff, but i had no idea they were this wierd with more than one nucleus. :nut: thanks alot.

any recomendations on good texts on fungal biology?


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Mindzpores words of wisdom:
"If you think something is foolproof, you just haven't met proper fools".

Wiccan_Seeker said:
"It is better to adjust to become a better listener than to keep on cranking up the volume".

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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4127123 - 05/03/05 09:16 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Visit the shroomery bookstore. Plenty of good reads available.

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Offlinepluteus
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Registered: 08/12/03
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: EonTan]
    #4128962 - 05/03/05 05:52 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

A key question raised in this thread is:

Can a 'transplanted' mono- or dikaryon donate invasive nuclei that selectively replace one of either of the fully sexually compatible nuclear types present in an established dikaryon?

Several posts have described this notion as absurd. EonTan's version of events, which I think is the most comprehensive, will only allow for the "exchange of non-compatible nuclei with compatible nuclei." I agree with this, but would like to point out there are other avenues of genetic interaction available to interfacing di-, hetero- and monokaryons apart from wholesale nuclear exchange. For instance, selective partial parasexual recombination between strains to provide one or both with selectively advantageous genes HAS been strongly implied in experiments using several different model basidiomycete species. For example, see:

Beeching, JR, Ainsworth, AM, Broxholme, SJ, Pryke JA and ADM Rayner (1989) Investigation of genetic transfer between strains of the basidiomycete, Stereum hirsutum, using molecular and morphological criteria, New Phytologist.

This is obviously highly relevant to the original query about a transplanted strain 'donating' fruiting competency to a non-fruiting mycelium (although I must say the query was phrased in confusingly ambiguous terms, genetically speaking).

How about that then? Although this particular phenomenon of partial selective genomic hybridization is very poorly studied / understood, it is clear that nuclear associations in basidiomyetes frequently deviate from the 1:1 ratios observed in stable dikaryons, and the genetic factors causing imbalanced nuclear ratios have been partially unravelled.

But there's another interesting issue that's been touched on here, in terms of what happens in a multispore inoculation scenario using spores from different fruitbodies. Let me make the question explicit. A monokaryon, A1B1, encounters a dikaryon, A2B2 A3B3. What then determines which of the dikaryon's nuclear types, both of which are fully sexually compatible with the monkaryon, actually dikaryotizes the monokaryon?

???

(It's not random)

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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: pluteus]
    #4133872 - 05/04/05 05:17 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

You raise a very interesting question about which nuclei would be exchanged in a situation where both nuclei in the frutiing Dikaryon cold be compatable nuclei. I would imagine it would be random, but I can imagine it might not be too. :smirk:

At some level the nuclei of the non fruiter would have to be altered(recombined), or replaced, or bypassed( having more then two nuceli present, 1 non compatable, and two or more compatable present).

pluteus :thumbup:

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