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Invisibletahoe
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Hypothetical Genetic Question
    #4108053 - 04/28/05 07:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Forgive me if my terminology is wrong but i hope to explain myself well enough so that you understand.
Lets say you have a 3x3' section of colonized substrate that wont fruit, not due to environment but due to genetics.Now you add to this the same strain of mycelium but with better genetics that will fruit. If you add this to one area will the whole thing fruit or just the area that it was added to. I know it will at least use the nutrients from the whole area but do the genes travel throughout the whole mycelia mass?


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Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


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I need to proofread


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Offlinexburn
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4109409 - 04/29/05 02:11 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

some types of mycellium set up "cell walls" with chitin. They ar enot truly cell walls but they dont allow the nucli to move only nutrients and cytoplasm. I think i remeber this from my biology book.

When mycellium shaes DNA is when a - spore and a + spore germinate and there hypae find eachother and join to create a hypae mass or as we know it mycellium.

since we're not dealing with single nuclie hypae but rather dual nucli mycellium i dont think it would. Purly because the sexuall reproduction doesn't happen this way.

I could be wrong, but i think i am i right.

i guess this is comprable to grafting in plants. same nutrients different DNA


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Invisiblekorins
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4109557 - 04/29/05 03:22 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'd suspect it would depend on the specific mutation(s) inhibiting fruiting. If the responsible gene(s) say code for a hormone that signals and synchronizes fruiting in all connected mycelium are rescued, perhaps a sufficient amount of transplated 'healthy' mycelium can restore this function. Frankly, it's hard for me to imagine a large chunk of mycelium fruiting all together, cyclically(:mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow:), as is commonly observed, without some molecular 'master control switch' being distributed inter-cellularly. :shrug:

Give it a shot and post results.  :thumbup:


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: korins]
    #4109910 - 04/29/05 06:11 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

He's not talking about mutations. He's talking about sections of mycelium which can't fruit because they haven't exchanged genetic material sexually. But fuck if I know much about this.... I've been wondering the same thing myself--at what point can mating no longer happen...?


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OfflineAeolus1369
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4110305 - 04/29/05 11:12 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not sure what role genetics would play in a small area not being colonized. If the same mycelium (even if it's from a multi-spore, it's similar genetics) colonized the rest of the substrate, how could it be anything but environmental factors? Maybe I'm not quite following you.

But to answer your question: No, genes will not travel through the mycelia in the sense you're talking about

---------------------------------
Edit:

Ok, I obviously misread the question. My assertion was merely that even in a multi-spore inoculation, the genetics would probably not be so different that a specific portion of the substrate wouldn't colonize--hence it's due to environmental factors. However since this isn't what he was even talking about, nevermind.


Edited by Aeolus1369 (04/30/05 02:44 AM)


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Invisiblekorins
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4110484 - 04/29/05 12:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Of course he's talking about mutations. He's talking about the genetics of the mycelium that has lost the ability to fruit (hypothetically).

mutation: A change of the DNA sequence within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.

The parent strains of this mycelium presumably had the ability to fruit (depending on species), and lost it at some point. Genetics could be wholly responsible for this and thus mutations.


Quote:

tahoe said:
do the genes travel throughout the whole mycelia mass?




This is what seems to be confusing people. Genes are probably not intentionally shared among mycelial cells. If the fruiting phenotype is rescued in the whole mycelial mass, then signalling molecules/hormones are most likely responsible.

As an aside, does anyone know the limit in size at which an interconnected mass of mycelium can no longer syncronize it's fruiting; there must be one.
Also, if anyone can think of a plausible alternative mechanism for synchronizing fruiting, I'd like to hear it.


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: korins]
    #4110985 - 04/29/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

korins said:
As an aside, does anyone know the limit in size at which an interconnected mass of mycelium can no longer syncronize it's fruiting; there must be one.





Here's my best take:
It's not the mass, per se, that introduces ansynchronicity but a varied environment experienced by a larger network. Why would a large network want its entire surface fruiting if only a percentage is experiencing optimal conditions? By this logic, the size requirement for asynch. would wildly vary. Also, assuming there is some max. mass induced asynch., I would strongly suspect the value to be variable by individual species.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #4111187 - 04/29/05 03:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Aeolus1369 said:
I'm not sure what role genetics would play in a small area not being colonized.




He didn't say not colonized. He said colonized but non-fruiting.

Quote:


If the same mycelium (even if it's from a multi-spore, it's similar genetics) colonized the rest of the substrate, how could it be anything but environmental factors?




First of all, there can be a huge difference in genetics among the different spores generated by a single fruit body. Generally offspring are similar to their parents but their genes are anything but standardized to the degree necessary to determine what is and isn't from environmental factors.

But, the point here really is that in a multi-spore inoculation only some of the mycelium will be able to fruit. This is due to sexual nature of cubensis reproduction and is unavoidable. I am far from an expert on this but bust out your copy of TMC and check out the section on mushroom genetics before you think you can contribute to this conversation. I'm not being a dick, but correct me if I'm wrong, you just don't seem to know much about what you're trying to talk about.



[^^where the fuck did that horizontal rule come from? I can't make it go away.]^^

Just a taste [TMC pg. 338]:
Quote:


In a tetrapolar fungus, only one fourth of the spores from any one mushroom are fully compatible with any random spore from that same strain. This mechanism exists to encourage outcrossing. When a cultivator is trying to produce a strain from a spore print, establishing a fruiting strain can be frustrating. This is because monkaryotic hyphae with common A factors or with common B factors can fuse and form dikaryons, and these dikaryons can even make convincing looking clamp connections.... These colonies, however, are incapable of fruiting.





Having said that, I don't think those "illegitimate" regions of mycelium will undergo any further change since they already mated.


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Invisiblekorins
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: debianlinux]
    #4111386 - 04/29/05 04:08 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

About my side question: I should have been more clear; I was still hypothesizing optimal (non-factor) environment across the entire mycelial network. For example, imagine a large casing under perfect fruting conditions. How large could it get before the fruiting is no longer synchronized?

BTW, I do agree that this would vary among species and even isolates. I wasn't really looking for an absolute figure, maybe an observation that confirms that I'm thinking abouth this correctly. Any intelligent input is welcome.


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: korins]
    #4111524 - 04/29/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

korins said:
How large could it get before the fruiting is no longer synchronized?




I continue to assert that such an ideal environment uniformly experienced by a monolithic network would remain synchronised.

The practicality of actually achieving this would be inversely proportional to the size of said network

Imagine, say, a 100sqft casing. Theoretically, with enough engineering and attention to detail, one could provide a uniform environment. I'm not so certain such conditions could be precisely administered to say, 1000sqft and certainly not to something on the order of 10000sqft. There's just too much room for natural environmental turbulence, but in some ideal bizarro perfecto world it could be done.

I think that possibly, even in bizarro perfecto world, things like the curvature of the earth or external weather patterns or spatial relationship to the moon would dictate a maximum synchronous size.

Is there a max synch. size? Yes, absolutely!
Are the variables and factors far to diverse to determine an even remotely valid and reliable estimation? I think so.


Edited by debianlinux (04/29/05 05:05 PM)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: debianlinux]
    #4111544 - 04/29/05 04:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting read about how large of a network could work together, in some sort of fungus anyway.

http://www.extremescience.com/largest-fungus.htm

Doesnt really apply to anything here but I just came across that today and its interesting :smile:


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4111571 - 04/29/05 05:02 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
Doesnt really apply to anything here but I just came across that today and its interesting




i find it very relevant.

this one of my favorite factoids to throw at laypeople when i'm talking fungi.


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: korins]
    #4111720 - 04/29/05 05:46 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

korins said:
Of course he's talking about mutations



No i am not, I am talking about a single cell, sterile i guess until it mates.
AS for giving it a shot, i wouldnt want to waste my time making a big ass outdoor bed with something that wouldnt fruit.
Its just me being paranoid about all my work for outdoor beds and them not fruiting. Most of them will have some sort of multispore inoculation mixed into them so i know there will be plenty of variation for fruiting but damn i will be sad if they dont.


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


Teh=The

I need to proofread


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4114092 - 04/30/05 10:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

in response to the original question.

no, already present cells will not change their nucleus through contact with other cells. just like cubensis would not turn into paneolus if their myc came in contact. sorry, DNA does not transfer like that, its not possible. however various signal substanses and RNA could hypothetically be transfered. ( i dont really know enough about myc to absolutely assert this. but, unless it works in a completely different way from other organisms, it should).

so if its not fruiting because of a basic genetic flaw. it will reamin like that. if its not fruiting because of lacking some kind of signal substance... it might fruit.


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4114101 - 04/30/05 11:02 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

oh.... thats more or less what the others said... sorry, should'v read it all before posting. :blush: :blush:

oh well, next time.


--------------------
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Wiccan_Seeker said:
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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: Mindzpore]
    #4117929 - 05/01/05 09:12 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It's amazing how many people around here don't even have a rudimentary knowledge of mushroom genetics....

*sigh*


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4118470 - 05/01/05 01:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
It's amazing how many people around here don't even have a rudimentary knowledge of mushroom genetics....

*sigh*



including yourself


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


Teh=The

I need to proofread


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: tahoe]
    #4118571 - 05/01/05 02:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

And what's your basis for saying that?

As I said, I don't know that much about mushroom genetics. But that is basic shit--mushrooms reproduce sexually and therefore exchange genetic material. It effects every grow directly.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4118811 - 05/01/05 03:29 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The mating of hyphal threads is the sexual mating, that si where the combined chromatid 2d DNA begins to be produced in the nucleui of the mycelial cell. This produces the fruiting ability. Thus, some spores can contain chromatids that are more genetically prone to fruiting, and some contain chromatids that are less prone to fruiting and more prone to whatever the opposite characterisitc is.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Hypothetical Genetic Question [Re: SoopaX]
    #4118871 - 05/01/05 03:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I know. That's what I said.

Just seems like half the people who replied to Tahoe's original message didn't know that. Which is why everyone kept talking about mutations.

[Edit: Actually I don't really understand what you mean when you say "some spores can contain chromatids that are more genetically prone to fruiting, and some contain chromatids that are less prone to fruiting and more prone to whatever the opposite characterisitc is." Of course some might have genes which favor fruiting for whatever reason but as I understand it, the reason some sections of mycelium cannot fruit is because at the hyphal mating stage, they either don't mate at all or mate with an incompatible type.]


Edited by ChuangTzu (05/01/05 04:00 PM)


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