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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Bush to Announce Social Security Plans
    #4106790 - 04/28/05 01:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050428/ap_o...zkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

This is serious stuff that will affect all Americans; especially young Americans.


Bush to Announce Social Security Plans


By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush is ready to begin talking with Congress and the public about specific steps he supports to ensure the future of Social Security and will announce his ideas during a prime-time news conference Thursday.

Bush was also using the formal question-and-answer session with reporters ? his first in the evening in over a year ? to talk about skyrocketing gas prices. The White House asked television networks to broadcast the news conference, scheduled for 8:30 p.m. EDT in the East Room of the White House.

The focus of the president's planned 10- to 12-minute opening statement was to be Social Security, White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.

A prime-time audience for what amounts to a speech at the top of the session allows Bush to seek to move the focus of public attention away from the alleged ethical improprieties of a key White House ally in Congress, House Majority Tom DeLay, R-Texas, and the troubled nomination of Bush's choice to be the next U.N. ambassador, John Bolton. Both controversies have dominated talk in the nation's capital in recent weeks.

Bush and top administration officials have been traveling around the country to pitch his proposal for overhauling Social Security, in part by allowing the creation of private investment accounts for younger workers. A 60-day nationwide blitz aimed at building support for that idea is ending on Sunday with some signs that public support has dropped. Democrats in Congress remain nearly unanimous in their opposition to that proposal and have said they won't begin negotiating a broad restructuring of the program with Bush until he drops the idea of private accounts.

Nevertheless, McClellan said that now that there has been "stepped-up legislative activity" on Social Security in the Senate and extensive consultations with lawmakers by Bush, the White House is ready to enter a new phase of the debate.

As a result, Bush was to "talk in more specific ways about his ideas for making Social Security permanently sound," McClellan said. Up to now, the president has only been willing to mention ideas that others have proposed to bridge the coming gap between Social Security revenues and obligations without giving any hint as to which ones ? if any ? he supports.

"There will be some new proposals that he will talk about that he believes ought to be part of any solution," McClellan said.

The spokesman would not say whether the ideas Bush intended to discuss include raising the retirement age or increasing the amount of income subject to the Social Security payroll tax, some of the ideas that have been floated. The only method the president has flatly rejected is increasing the payroll tax rate.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Bush's cross-country sales job on Social Security has been "a dismal failure."

"What I'm hoping" is that he will say "Uncle" about his privatization plan, she said. The White House shot back that Democrats are behaving as the do-nothing party with no ideas to offer.

On energy, McClellan said Bush would push Congress to pass his long-stalled energy plan. Soaring oil and gasoline prices are beginning to take a toll on U.S. economic growth and on Bush's approval ratings.

The Commerce Department reported Thursday that the economy grew at an annual rate of just 3.1 percent in the first three months of this year, the slowest pace of expansion in two years.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/17/03
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4107149 - 04/28/05 03:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, let's "save" Social Security by taking money out of it. Then we balance the federal budget by cutting taxes and increasing defense spending...... :rolleyes:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4107380 - 04/28/05 04:52 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It doesn't need saving. It needs to be destroyed.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Silversoul]
    #4107844 - 04/28/05 06:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Hopefully he has come up with a good plan. At least he will have a plan. It amazes me that the democrats take themselves out of policy issues because they don't even suggest alternatives.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Registered: 10/13/02
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4108527 - 04/28/05 09:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Yes, let's "save" Social Security by taking money out of it. Then we balance the federal budget by cutting taxes and increasing defense spending...... :rolleyes:



Nothing is being taken out of social security. The problem is that all the money that was paid into social security was replaced with IOUs by the government. A better way of looking at this is to say that they won't be putting in as much. The people on social security were supposed to have already paid for theirs in advance.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLe_Canard
I AM NOT A FISH!

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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: z@z.com]
    #4108858 - 04/28/05 11:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:

Nothing is being taken out of social security. The problem is that all the money that was paid into social security was replaced with IOUs by the government. A better way of looking at this is to say that they won't be putting in as much. The people on social security were supposed to have already paid for theirs in advance.




Well, I've always had the impression that it was a "pay-as-you-go" setup, where funds collected paid for current benefits. Privatising it would reduce revenues during a time of record benefit draws (I.E. When the "baby boomers" start retiring) There is a problem, I will agree, but so-called "privatisation" isn't the answer.

But yes, I do agree that the looting of the SS "trust" fund (ha!) is a real problem. Also lets not forget the ever increasing Medicare costs, which this administration has yet to address....


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4108964 - 04/28/05 11:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So how would you solve the problem? Seems to me that someone is going to have to get fucked to get us out of this mess. The sooner the better is what I say.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLe_Canard
I AM NOT A FISH!

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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: z@z.com]
    #4108967 - 04/28/05 11:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Raise SS taxes? Raise the retirement age? Raise the taxable income cap? Seem to me these would work, but I'm not saying I'm %100 certain. It does need fxing, but we can't just kick the disabled and elderly to the curb....


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: z@z.com]
    #4109006 - 04/29/05 12:03 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Refund all people under the retirement age by putting all the money they've put into social security (with inflation) into private accounts for them that they can now use any time they want, and continue paying for those already on social security.

Once the people on it die out, there's no more problem. If the government even saved some of the money it wastes on so much useless shit we could use it as a sort of safety net to fall on while the people who already on it die out, and those under the retirement age will have their money back in private accounts so they can use it like they would social security or not as they see fit.

It was a socialist idea to begin with, and should be abolished within the next decade or so.

The problem with Bush's idea is it's way too moderate and doesn't really solve any of the problems. Allowing people to privatize their social security money is good for the people, but it doesn't seem to me to help in any way prevent it from going bankrupt. Hopefully this is just a first step during these four years that Bush will take to abolish social security.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Ravus]
    #4109029 - 04/29/05 12:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Refund all people under the retirement age by putting all the money they've put into social security (with inflation) into private accounts for them that they can now use any time they want, and continue paying for those already on social security.

Wouldn't that pretty much bankrupt the government?

The problem with Bush's idea is it's way too moderate and doesn't really solve any of the problems. Allowing people to privatize their social security money is good for the people, but it doesn't seem to me to help in any way prevent it from going bankrupt.

I thought it wasn't really privatizing? Something like less than half your SS funds would be available for you to invest in government approved programs. That's hardly privatizing.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Registered: 10/13/02
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4109075 - 04/29/05 12:25 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Raise SS taxes? Raise the retirement age? Raise the taxable income cap? Seem to me these would work, but I'm not saying I'm %100 certain. It does need fxing, but we can't just kick the disabled and elderly to the curb....



Why can't we at least allow most people to manage their own retirement accounts and pass on their savings to their heirs? What is the problem with that? Like I said, someone has to get fucked.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: cb9fl]
    #4109090 - 04/29/05 12:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Bankrupt? We're already $7,800,000,000,000 in debt, when speaking in these terms it seems a term like bankrupt becomes absolete.

If the government assumes a more libertarian stance towards their budget, I don't see how they couldn't refund people over time. If they taxed drugs and prostitution and kept the regular taxes until social security was paid off, it seems entirely possible we could completely clear ourselves of this mess with money to spare. It may bankrupt the government if we did it all in the short-term, but it's possible we could spread out the refunds over the next decade or so rather than doing it all within a year.

Quote:

I thought it wasn't really privatizing? Something like less than half your SS funds would be available for you to invest in government approved programs. That's hardly privatizing.




Is that his plan? From what he said tonight on the news conference and in news articles I've read it seemed more to me like he was saying you could divert the money you'd put into social security to instead put it in stocks and bonds, or in a federal treasury of some sort. I didn't hear it was only half your SS funds or only government approved programs, though it may be true. His plans have been a bit vague up to this point, and are still not fully revealed to me.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
I AM NOT A FISH!

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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: z@z.com]
    #4109092 - 04/29/05 12:30 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Er, you already can invest in a private retirement account, if you so choose. You might not be able to buy a new SUV every year or get that nice widescreen TV you want but it can be done. My grandparents did, and so did ny parents, and they managed to save quite a bit.....


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: cb9fl]
    #4109103 - 04/29/05 12:34 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:

Wouldn't that pretty much bankrupt the government?





That is the problem with the ponzi scheme. We couldn't afford to pay out all the money that has been paid in. One of the reasons that it has been so "successful" for 70 years is that it has racked up trillions of dollars of liabilities. They have been living high on the hog with borrowed money.

Critics of change assert that the system has plenty of money and is funded for decades, but they readily assert that if any money is diverted the whole system and perhaps the economy will collapse.

It is always fun spending someone elses money. It is going to get ugly when we have to pay it off.

Younger people today and going to pay higher taxes for a lesser return. The only real solutions are to raise taxes and cut benefits. Privatization is a good long term idea, but it is mainly philosophical. It can't overcome the trillions of dollars of liabilities the system already has in place. And what the hell could?

Before Argentina's collapse, they were paying payroll taxes of around 50%. Underground econonmies flourised because nobody in hell was going to let the big man take half his paycheck. Right now payroll taxes are a combined 15.3%, and 80% of Americans pay more in combined payroll taxes than Federal income taxes. I have heard people talking about tax increases on the payroll tax as high as 50%. That is probably an extreme case, but a 50% increase to payroll taxes would amount to 23% of income.

And who in the hell is going to buy that? The last time we increased payroll taxes it gave the system a surplus, but then the government spent the surplus. If we start giving them more than they need you know they will eat it all up. In hindsight, it would have been better off to have a real "pay as you go" system, rather than the last 25 years of having the government pillage the social security trust fund.

That is a good argument for private accounts, if only because the government can't spend it or use it to mask deficits.

I bet nothing happens with social security until we hit the fucking wall and the economy is truely bankrupt. Picture a world down the line where the projected benefit cuts of 30% are combined with a radical drop in the value of the dollar, say to half it's current value. $1,000 social security dollars today would be $700, but because of the dollars decline that $700 would only be $350.

I don't know what is going to happen, but it all scares the piss out of me.

The one thing that I have learned is that you can't trust anyone more than you can trust yourself. Pension funds aren't solvent, social security isn't solvent, and anybody else that promises to pay you something is likely to dick you. You can't trust a government or a company with taking care of you, and that is why I am all for private accounts.

I also like the inheritablity factor. Poor people and minorities tend to die younger and they don't get the benefits of all the money that they paid. In that sense social security is a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. I do think that giving people assets and ownership will empower them and their children. I support choice and an ownership society.

I bet we all realize the answer just as it becomes too late. It will all be clear then!


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4109144 - 04/29/05 12:44 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Anyone who depends on "social security" for their retirement is a fool.

"You can't trust the government" isn't just an axiom.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4111317 - 04/29/05 03:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Raise SS taxes?



Great, so I have to put more in to get less out. SS taxes are ridiculous enough as they are.

Quote:

Raise the retirement age?



The retirement age is already unfair to African Americans and other minorities who don't live as long.

Quote:

Raise the taxable income cap?



Sure, so more people who don't need SS in the first place have to pay for it.

Quote:

Seem to me these would work, but I'm not saying I'm %100 certain.



Sure, they might "work" in the sense of salvaging an utterly inefficient, burdensome, and morally bankrupt system.

Quote:

It does need fxing, but we can't just kick the disabled and elderly to the curb....



How about kicking the working poor to the curb? Cuz that's what SS taxes do.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4111324 - 04/29/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Er, you already can invest in a private retirement account, if you so choose. You might not be able to buy a new SUV every year or get that nice widescreen TV you want but it can be done. My grandparents did, and so did ny parents, and they managed to save quite a bit.....



Sure, but SS taxes are highly regressive, and make it much harder for the working poor to invest their money.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
I AM NOT A FISH!

Registered: 05/17/03
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Silversoul]
    #4111377 - 04/29/05 04:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Raise SS taxes?



Great, so I have to put more in to get less out. SS taxes are ridiculous enough as they are.


Well, if some of Bush's proposals go through, you WILL get less out. I know you advocate abolishing all taxes, but really, is that workable? A nice sentiment, though.

Quote:

Raise the retirement age?



The retirement age is already unfair to African Americans and other minorities who don't live as long.


And they would benefit from getting rid of SS?

Quote:

Raise the taxable income cap?



Sure, so more people who don't need SS in the first place have to pay for it.



We don't need $1 billion bombers either, but we pay for them out of our income tax. Why shouldn't the wealthy share the burden?

Quote:

Seem to me these would work, but I'm not saying I'm %100 certain.



Sure, they might "work" in the sense of salvaging an utterly inefficient, burdensome, and morally bankrupt system.


And letting an elderly or disabled person live on the streets and die of starvation so you can save some money is morally right? This is a main problem I have with Libertarians. They strike me as a wee bit selfish and cruel....

Quote:

It does need fxing, but we can't just kick the disabled and elderly to the curb....



How about kicking the working poor to the curb? Cuz that's what SS taxes do.




That's pretty heartless.

And investing in the stock market doesn't guarantee anything. Sure you make a lot of money, but by the same token you could also lose a lot of money...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4111479 - 04/29/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Well, if some of Bush's proposals go through, you WILL get less out.



As you will without Bush's proposals. At least with private accounts, you have a better chance of getting more out.

Quote:

I know you advocate abolishing all taxes,



Actually, if you had been following my posts for the last couple months, you'd know that's not true. I advocate a tax system based not on how much money a person has, but rather on how they obtained it.

Quote:

but really, is that workable?



My answer is an emphatic YES!!! And it is much more morally sound than this systematic theft which we currently have.

Quote:

The retirement age is already unfair to African Americans and other minorities who don't live as long.

And they would benefit from getting rid of SS?



Most likely. With their wages freed from the tyranny of payroll taxes, they can invest more of their own money and retire when it's better for them, rather than wait until they're 65, when they'll die much sooner than white people, and thus not recieve as many benefits out of SS.

Quote:

Sure, so more people who don't need SS in the first place have to pay for it.

We don't need $1 billion bombers either, but we pay for them out of our income tax. Why shouldn't the wealthy share the burden?



Because no one should share the burden. With SS in particular, the idea is supposed to be that you get out what you put in, but it obviously doesn't work like that in real life. Because of the inefficiency of SS(which should be expected of any government program), it's become a redistribution scheme from the young to the old. Any of your proposals will only further this divide, by reducing the benefits per cost of social security for my generation.

Quote:

Sure, they might "work" in the sense of salvaging an utterly inefficient, burdensome, and morally bankrupt system.

And letting an elderly or disabled person live on the streets and die of starvation so you can save some money is morally right?



Oh, save me the fucking lecture! Private accounts are much more efficient at saving money than government pyramid schemes. This has nothing to do with leaving people out on the streets, and everything to do with making sure they don't get there in the first place.

Quote:

This is a main problem I have with Libertarians. They strike me as a wee bit selfish and cruel....



What you call selfishness and cruelty is actually just a better understanding of ecomonics, and the wisdom to see the inefficiencies of government schemes compared to private solutions.

Quote:

How about kicking the working poor to the curb? Cuz that's what SS taxes do.

That's pretty heartless.



Indeed, SS taxes are heartless. So why do you advocate them?

Quote:

And investing in the stock market doesn't guarantee anything. Sure you make a lot of money, but by the same token you could also lose a lot of money...



I'm losing money in SS right now. Don't you get it? Every solution you proposed(indeed, every solution the Dems have proposed) results in the same or fewer benefits at higher cost. If that's not losing money, I don't know what is. Shit, my money would be safer in a bank account than it would be in SS. Putting my money in the hands of those soulless cash whores in Washington(and I mean no disrespect to actual whores) is about the worst investment I can think of.


--------------------


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InvisibleLe_Canard
I AM NOT A FISH!

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Re: Bush to Announce Social Security Plans [Re: Silversoul]
    #4111715 - 04/29/05 05:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry but no, I don't think privatising anything will help, except maybe to enrich Wall Street brokers. You propose one way, I propose another. Who's right? Who knows? Perhaps the answer lay somewhere in between. But whatever the solution, this decision shouldn't be rushed - there's plenty of time to make some choices...


Edited by Le_Canard (04/29/05 05:53 PM)


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