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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
I just don't get it...
    #4106030 - 04/28/05 09:21 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Noone take offense to this, please. I've seen great results with both of these substrates.

Why the hell are people paying for HMC and Tenn Stud Substrate? From what I've seen of HMC, it isn't the specialized mushroom compost described in TMC, it's just cow shit and waste. Tenn stud isn't "composted", it's dried shit. Why doesn't someone offer PROPERLY MADE compost that looks like the beautiful stuff Stamets is tearing apart in his hands in TMC?


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineSammy
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: SoopaX]
    #4106316 - 04/28/05 11:29 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That's a few different questions there. I believe that people pay for HMC (as I just did) because they don't want to pasturize anything. They just want to mix -n - go. If you actually think about how much yield you get per dollar you put into that compost or manure.. you got your money's worth. So sterility.. and money. Some people don't know what the proper water content is.. etc etc. All in all.. it's easier.

Why not offer that good stuff? I dunno? I haven't seen any of the products yet but I bet that growing on HMC or TC is much better than picking up a sack of Steer Manure at Home Depot or trying and trying to get your poo just right.

I personally want to experiment with straw next time

Sam


--------------------

I believe in the Golden Rule ? The Man with the Gold . . . Rules.
- Mr. T


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: I just don't get it... [Re: Sammy]
    #4106343 - 04/28/05 11:41 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yea, but none of it is MUSHROOM COMPOST.  Be prepared for me to open my own company as soon as I figure a few things out :smile:


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: SoopaX]
    #4106362 - 04/28/05 11:49 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What makes you think HMC isn't actual mushroom compost? Just curious.


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Offlineonetime
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4106372 - 04/28/05 11:54 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i think he is just compareing it to comericaly avlible stuff there is only two composters that have "legal for trade" mushroom compost one is only avlible in irerland and the other is usa based but you need permits saying that your registerd mushroom grower to buy these products


--------------------

See?
Yes, with my own three eyes.
Depression, Misspells , wanting everying thing i cant have haveing nothing i want


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: I just don't get it... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4106398 - 04/28/05 12:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It doesn't look like the compost that Stamets is holding in his hand in TMC. The visible 2-3" pieces of straw, caramel colored, etc.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: SoopaX]
    #4106437 - 04/28/05 12:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So, just because you don't see 2-3" pieces of straw sticking out, it's not real mushroom compost?  Bleh  :rolleyes:

The picture you are referring to is most likely unfinished compost, that's why you're seeing big pieces of straw.  It hasn't composted yet.


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OfflineInjectTruth
Wasting my Time,Waiting for theEnd
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4106507 - 04/28/05 12:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

HMC is in fact, compost. It is a beautiful mixture that produces GIGANTIC shrooms in single lazy tub arrangements. It is definitely not shit.

What I do want to know is, how the hell does TennStud offer 5 dollar shipping? The same 60 pounds of compost that cost me $380 total from hmc, only costs $155!


--------------------
On a personal level, Freaking Out is a process whereby an
individual casts off outmoded and restricting standars of
thinking, dress, and social etiquette in order to express
CREATIVELY his relationship to his immediate environment and
the social structure as a whole.

http://www.OrganicPharming.com - Ethno Shopping Portal


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OfflineSammy
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: InjectTruth]
    #4106658 - 04/28/05 01:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

60 lbs of compost.. woah!

HMC just emailed me back and told me that since they saved some cash on shipping.. they're sending me somewhat of a refund back!! YES!!

5lbs cost me 28$ and some change and I live right accross the state! LoL.. so yes, TennStud sounds like a good deal. I've never used bulk before so HMC..... here I come!! I keep hearing good things like InjectTruth just said "It is a beautiful mixture that produces GIGANTIC shrooms in a single lazy tub arrangements..".

That's the shiz

Sammy


--------------------

I believe in the Golden Rule ? The Man with the Gold . . . Rules.
- Mr. T


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Invisibleagar
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: SoopaX]
    #4107576 - 04/28/05 05:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If you are or intend to make a premium mushroom compost. It takes a bit more than you would think in the way of room (acres), raw ingredients, trucks, tractors, turners, shredders, etc. The other thing you learn is this type compost will not keep, unless shredded, dehydrated & stored in a dry protected place. I learned that from experiance. Below are pictures of a couple 20 ton batches I made a few years back.


I. Guidelines for calculating pre/compost nitrogen (N) content:
Calculate the starting N content of pile to be 1.5 to 1.7% before composting. The starting N for a synthetic compost formulas may be slightly higher than the wheat straw horse manure formulas. The percent N will increase throughout Phase I composting and Phase II and at spawning time the N content of the compost should be 2.1-2.6 %.

Knowing the N and % moisture of the bulk ingredients and supplements will increase the accuracy of the calculated and finished nitrogen content. If supplements are added by volume, occasionally weigh volume added to confirm calculated formula.

At the end of Phase I and again at the end of Phase II, compost may be analyzed for N, ammonia, ash and moisture. It is important to take a representative samples, several small handfuls thoroughly mixed. When taking a sample do not shake the compost.

II. Examples of Mushroom Compost Formulas

Horse manure pile
Ingredients Wet Wt. Dry Wt. %N Tons N
Horse manure 80 T 50 T 1.2% 0.6 T
Poultry manure 7.5 T 6.0 T 4 % 0.24 T
Brewers Grains 2.5 T 2.5 T 4 % 0.1 T
Gypsum 1.25 T 1.25 T 0 0
59.75 T 0.94 ? 59.75 = 1.57%


Synthetic pile
Ingredients Wet Wt. Dry Wt. %N Tons N
Hay 15 T 12.8 T 2.0 % 0.26 T
Cobs 15 T 12.8 T 0.3 % 0.04 T
Poultry manure 3.8 T 2.4 T 4 % 0.09 T
NH4NO3 0.3 T 0.3 T 32% 0.10 T
Potash 0.3 T 0.3 T 0.0 0.00
Gypsum 0.6 T 0.6 T 0.0 0.00
29.2 T 0.49 ? 29.2 = 1.68%


Horse manure-synthetic blend
Ingredients Wet Wt. Dry Wt. %N Tons N
Horse manure 15 T 10.5 T 1.2% 0.13
Hay 7.5 T 6.3 T 1.1% 0.07
Corn Cobs 7.5 T 6.4 T 0.3% 0.02
Brewer's grains 3.0 T 3.0 T 4.0% 0.12
Poultry manure 2.0 T 2.0 T 4.5% 0.09
Urea 0.1 T 0.1 T 44.0% 0.06
Potash 0.2 T 0.2 T 0.0% 0.00
Gypsum 1.0 T 1.0 T 0.0% 0.00
29.5 0.49 ? 29.5 = 1.66%

III. Suggested watering procedures during composting:

Add as much water as possible without run off during pre-wet conditioning or during the first two turns. Avoid adding too much water early during Phase I, always be able to control moisture. Add only enough during next turn or turns to wet dry spots. Bring up compost moisture to desired water content by adequate watering just before filling.

During pre-wet it is advisable to flip or turn the compost every day. After the rick or pile is built, the compost should be turn every other day unless pile temperatures have not peaked.

IV. Changes in organic matter, carbohydrates and nitrogen during mushroom composting.

Soluble carbohydrates are simply adsorbed by the micro-organisms and it is converted into new living matter or provides energy for the cells. As these micro-organism grow energy in the form of heat is released.

As the pile heats to temperature above 150o F the activities occurring within the pile change from biological to chemical reactions. It is at these higher temperatures that carmelization takes place. Carmelization is the process where water is eliminated from the carbohydrates and carbon is concentrated. This process can be compared to boiling sap down to make maple sugar.

V. Phase I is considered complete when as soon as the raw ingredients become pliable and are capable of holding water, the odor of ammonia is sharp and the dark brown color indicates carmelization and browning reactions have occurred.

Moisture content at filling should be 70-73%. Water should drip from compost squeezed in the hand. But a good rule of thumb to follow is: the longer, greener or more coarse the compost then more moisture it can take. The shorter, more mature or dense the compost the less water it should have.

The shorter or wetter the compost, the more loosely it should be filled into the beds or trays. The longer or greener the compost, the more it can be firmed into the beds. Attempt to fill uniformly in both depth and compaction. Edges or sideboards should be packed slightly tighter, whereas the center should remain looser.

VI. Phase II composting has two objectives:

Pasteurization - elimination of undesirable insect pest, microbes and pathogens.

Conditioning - Creation of specific food for the mushroom and creating a selective and suppressive compost to favor the growth of the mushroom.
VII. Insure adequate ventilation during Phase II. When in doubt, ventilate. A flame should be burn at all times.

The higher the nitrogen content of compost, the greener the compost or the more dry weight at filling time, the greater the ventilation required. When outside temperature is high as in summer or early fall, more ventilation is required than when Phase II occurs during the cold winter weather. This is especially important when the grower does not have a forced air ventilation system.

VIII. During Phase II keep compost in the temperature range where microorganisms grow best (115-140o F).

Microbes convert ammonia and ammonia containing salts into protein and other nitrogen compounds the mushroom uses for food. The growth of these microbes depends on having the available food, adequate moisture, sufficient oxygen and suitable temperature. A shortage of one of these requirements will limit growth and often results in incomplete conditioning.

IX. Heat up (pasteurization) for insect kill early in Phase II (perhaps 1-4 days after filling) so as to avoid a second heating cycle of the compost.

A good indication that the compost is ready to pasteurized, is the subsiding of microbial activity, which is indicated by a decrease in compost temperature at the same air temperature.

X. After pasteurization slowly lower compost through the temperature ranges of the microorganisms. A general rule is to lower compost temperature no more than 4-5o F. per day.

Provided that enough food, water and oxygen the microbes will continue to grow. Different microbes use different compounds and grow at different temperatures. Therefore it is important to make sure all areas of the beds and room gradually drop through all temperatures ranges.

Thermophillic fungi grow at lower temperatures and are important because they are able to grow into denser areas of compost.

XI. Composting is considered compete when no trace of ammonia odor can be detected and the compost has a uniform flecking of white colonies of actinomycetes, called fire-fang. The N content on a dry wt. basis should be in the range of 2.0 to 2.7.


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Edited by agar (04/28/05 07:59 PM)


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OfflineSammy
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: agar]
    #4108164 - 04/28/05 08:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

OH man!! You just got.. I hate to say it.. Schooled.

Agar.. you da' man!

Sammy


--------------------

I believe in the Golden Rule ? The Man with the Gold . . . Rules.
- Mr. T


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OfflinePraseodymn
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Registered: 04/11/05
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Re: I just don't get it... [Re: agar]
    #4109078 - 04/29/05 12:26 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I don't mean to be nitpicky or challenge you agar, as you obviously know far more about this subject than I, however.
150F is not nearly high enough to force carmelization NOR maillards reaction, nor is your defintion of caramelization altogether correct.
Quote:

When sucrose-table sugar- is heated, it first melts into a thick syrup. It then slowly changes color, becoming light yellow and progressively deepening to a dark brown. At the same time, its initially sweet flavor takes on a kind of richness, the change we associate with roasting marshmallows or baking meringue. The chemeical reactions involved in caramelization are very numerous and not very well understood [possibly changed by now]. If glucose, an even simler sugar than the disaccharide sucrose, is browned, this single species of molecule breaks down and recombines to form at least 100 different reaction products, among them sour organic acids, sweet and bitter derivatives, many fragrant volatile molecules, and brown-colored polymers. . . . Both caramelization and the Maillard browning proceed at a significant rate only at relatively high temperatures: caramelization, for example, becomes noticeable at around 310 F (154C). This is because large amounts of energy are required to force the intitial molecular interactions. The practical consequence of this limitation is that most foods brown only on the outside and during the application of dry heat. Recall that water cannot be heated above 212F until it is vaporized, unless it is under high pressure. So foods that are cooked in hot water, and moist interiors of meats and vegetables, will never exceed 212F



Your browning color comes from something else.

Pras

P.S. McGee, Harold; On Food and Cooking, 1984 Scribner Press, New York


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