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niteowl
GrandPaw
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4109801 - 04/29/05 02:51 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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My grandmother "predicted" at least 10 major personal events (for her) in my life time. My dad saw even more.
I only remember 1-2 times when she had "one of her dreams" and nothing happened.
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Swami
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: niteowl]
#4109815 - 04/29/05 02:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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I can give endless examples of people believing in false stories and deceiving themselves. Hell, EVERY SINGLE DAY here people read what was not written and swear it was.
So what is to convince me that your perception is better than the common man? If I could demonstrate that you make some false conclusions would you dismisss other conclusions that you have made and hold dear? I doubt it.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4109826 - 04/29/05 03:02 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Same thing I said earlier....your not going to change your pov either.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: niteowl]
#4109847 - 04/29/05 03:17 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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The BIG difference between your POV and mine, is that I can repeatably DEMONSTRATE how erroneous feelings are used to back falsehoods as truth. You cannot do the inverse.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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soulmotion
Professor
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4109913 - 04/29/05 04:19 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: Discuss.
Dictionary.com suggests this definition for evidence:
"A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment..."
So in a broader sense of the word, a feeling can indeed be a form of evidence, if it helps you to form a conclusion. You could argue over the semantics and say that the word 'evidence' should'nt be used to describe a feeling, but why then do people have to specify what type of evidence they're talking about by saying, "physical evidence", or "tangible evidence", or "material..." or "concrete...".
One reason why the term 'evidence' shouldn't be restricted to the physical world is that: feelings provide evidence for the existance of immaterial things, example:
Is love a real thing? Let's say you could poll of everyone in the world, and you get a high percentage of people who say yes, it does exist. This majority would believe it exits because they felt it. Tragically, there will no doubt be some people who don't believe that love exists either because they've never expirienced it, or they had expirienced it and then chose to disbelieve the expirience. Even still, if the majority of people claim that it exists (and since there's no other way to validate their claim other than to expirience 'love' first hand) then love is most likely a real thing.
When a group of people all expirience the same feeling(s), then there is a basis for a broader conclusion to be made, and the feelings would in that case become evidence.
Another interesting thing to consider is that: feelings (speaking of emotions, and phychological responses) actually have a certain degree of physiology to them. 'Feelings' are brought about by changes in a person's brain chemistry, and are usually a response to some kind of physical stimulus, or can be traced back to some previous stimulus. So feelings, when analyzed, can help a person to understand their physical environment.
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4110021 - 04/29/05 05:47 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Define reification.
MAIA
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
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mantra
the universe
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: MAIA]
#4110138 - 04/29/05 07:26 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Swami, 500 years ago or something (you can correct me on that irrelevant number if you so desire), it was scientific fact the world was round, that if you sialed to the end youd be eaten by monsters or fall off the edge. It was taken to be fact that there was a God that made things fall to the ground, made me live and die ,and made the grass grow. It was a fact that the Earth was the center of the universe, newtonian physics, euclidian geometry... etc etc they have all been proven wrong (well, a little wrong, not quite right, I guess) after they have been established as complete truth.
Science is a metaphor for a supposed "absolute" reality/truth. Our bodies receive stimuli and are processed through our brain and analyzed just like any information inputted into a computer. We did not design our brains to do specific funcitons like we designed computers to do 1+1=2 and find something on a map. I dont know. just throwin all that out there
-------------------- The creative principle unifies the inner and external worlds. It does not depend on time or space, is ever still and yet in motion; thereby it creates all things, and is therefore called 'the creative and the absolute'; its ebb and its flow extend to infinity. -Tao Te Ching
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4110182 - 04/29/05 07:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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The problem for me is. While I am open to the possibility of Paranormal experience, the more "evidence" I hear from people here and elsewhere the less I am willing to consider it as a possibility.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: mantra]
#4110225 - 04/29/05 08:27 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
psionicpigeon said: Swami, 500 years ago or something (you can correct me on that irrelevant number if you so desire), it was scientific fact the world was round, that if you sialed to the end youd be eaten by monsters or fall off the edge.
Where is the end of a round world?
Perhaps you meant flat...
Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Diploid
Cuban
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: mantra]
#4110256 - 04/29/05 08:41 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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500 years ago or something (you can correct me on that irrelevant number if you so desire), it was scientific fact the world was round, that if you sialed to the end youd be eaten by monsters or fall off the edge.
You're wrong.
What you and many others here don't get is that no scientist held this opinion or any other opinion not supported by evidence.
Science, by definition, does not have 'facts'. Science has only plausible explanations (called theories) for the available observations and evidence. If a thing is not in evidence (monsters at the edge of the world) no scientist will believed it exists. That's what non-scientists do; believe in things not in evidence.
Science is about looking at the world and gathering observations. Science then posits a reasonable explanation for those observations; this is called a theory. Science then goes on to design a method of testing the theory to see if it jives with the real world; this is called an experiment.
If the experiment exposes a flaw in the theory, then the theory is refined (or sometimes thrown out entirely) with the results of the experiment in mind and with more observations.
Each subsequent theory gets better and better at explaining all the observations and passing all the experimental tests. Eventually, the theory is sufficiently refined that it can be used to explain and predict the behavior of natural systems very accurately.
Continue the iterations and you end up with something like the Atomic Theory which is powerful enough to incinerate cities, treat cancer by radiation, and provide nuclear-based electrical energy for my home.
That's what science is about. It's not about believing in UFOs with nothing but but fuzzy pictures as evidence, it's not about believing in psychics who can't even guess next week's lottery numbers, and it's not about believing in monsters at the edge of the world without evidence they exist.
Edited by Diploid (04/29/05 09:04 AM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: soulmotion]
#4110987 - 04/29/05 12:25 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Is love a real thing?
I have known men and women:
1. Who were sure that another was in love with them and they were wrong.
2. Who were sure that their significant other was faithful and they were wrong.
3. Who were sure that their significant other was unfaithful and they were wrong.
4. Who vowed to spend their lives together and lasted only a few years.
Do you deny that the feelings in these cases were erroneous and useless for determining the facts?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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egghead1
Nakedly Open
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4111008 - 04/29/05 12:31 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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It someone gets out a saw and attempts to cut off my arm, i have a very strong feeling of pain which is direct evidence that my arm is being sawn off
-------------------- All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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freddurgan
Techgnostic
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: egghead1]
#4111030 - 04/29/05 12:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
egghead1 said: It someone gets out a saw and attempts to cut off my arm, i have a very strong feeling of pain which is direct evidence that my arm is being sawn off
That example really doesn't prove anything, it's more sarcasm than anything. There is a lot more evidence of your arm being sawed off than you feeling it. You always see it, lose the ability to use your arm, hear it, smell it, etc. This example is really far past "feeling" as evidence.
Feelings are often right, and feelings are just as often wrong. They should not be used as evidence because they cannot be reproduced in exactly the same way.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
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Posts: 16,291
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4111093 - 04/29/05 12:51 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have known men and women:
1. Who were sure that another was in love with them and they were right.
2. Who were sure that their significant other was faithful and they were right.
3. Who were sure that their significant other was unfaithful and they were right.
4. Who vowed to spend their lives together and lived the rest of their lives together.
Our emotions are just another tool we use, to help us make a decision, about a situation.
If you make your mind up based solely on emotional evidence....then your a drama queen/king..... and a fool.
If you dis~miss information based solely on emotional reasons..... just as foolish.
Our emotions are normally the first indicator that something is right/wrong. You must keep your eyes open for other, "solid" evidence/proof, that your emotions were right/wrong.
You have to look at the whole situation....facts and feelings....to come to the best/right decision.
Not just one or the other.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: niteowl]
#4111109 - 04/29/05 12:54 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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I could use a coin-flip to be just as accurate/inaccurate. How is that a useful tool in determining truth?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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eMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....
Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
Loc: The Symphony of Lights......
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4111135 - 04/29/05 01:00 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: Is love a real thing? . I have known men and women: . 1. Who were sure that another was in love with them and they were wrong. . 2. Who were sure that their significant other was faithful and they were wrong. . 3. Who were sure that their significant other was unfaithful and they were wrong. . 4. Who vowed to spend their lives together and lasted only a few years. . Do you deny that the feelings in these cases were erroneous and useless for determining the facts?
. It prooves by actions of "evidence" that (in some cases) the person that was "wrong" about the other, was in love (and perhaps blinded by it)....
-------------------- Uni-VersALL MasterPeace eMotive Divinity NowThere Infinity eMelody
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egghead1
Nakedly Open
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: freddurgan]
#4111186 - 04/29/05 01:11 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
freddurgan said:
Quote:
egghead1 said: It someone gets out a saw and attempts to cut off my arm, i have a very strong feeling of pain which is direct evidence that my arm is being sawn off
That example really doesn't prove anything, it's more sarcasm than anything. There is a lot more evidence of your arm being sawed off than you feeling it. You always see it, lose the ability to use your arm, hear it, smell it, etc. This example is really far past "feeling" as evidence.
Feelings are often right, and feelings are just as often wrong. They should not be used as evidence because they cannot be reproduced in exactly the same way.
Is this a good enough example? A blind, deaf man, with no hands or legs, having his balls slowly crushed in a vice. Hows that one for FEELING as evidence.
-------------------- All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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How is that a useful tool in determining truth?
Did you read the whole post
Quote:
Our emotions are normally the first indicator that something is right/wrong. You must keep your eyes open for other, "solid" evidence/proof, that your emotions were right/wrong.
You have to look at the whole situation....facts and feelings....to come to the best/right decision.
Not just one or the other.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: niteowl]
#4111204 - 04/29/05 01:16 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Our emotions are normally the first indicator that something is right/wrong. You must keep your eyes open for other, "solid" evidence/proof, that your emotions were right/wrong.
You have to look at the whole situation....facts and feelings....to come to the best/right decision.
Not just one or the other.
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soulmotion
Professor
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Re: Feelings As Evidence [Re: Swami]
#4111277 - 04/29/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just because a feeling (like love) is transitory, doesn't mean that it isn't real. If you've expirienced a feeling (like love) before, and then the expirience fades, then it was a real thing to you at one time, and it could always be a real thing that is only occasionally expirienced: like a comet. But I've also known people who, after having their feelings hurt when a cherished relationship ends, choose to disbelieve in the existance of love altogether. They do it to cope with the disappointment, "Hey, if it wasn't even real in the first place, then I didn't really loose anything..." is the mentality.
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