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Salvia Facts and Myths * 1
    #4098635 - 04/26/05 01:44 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Salvia facts and myths.

Before anything I have to thank Daniel Siebert (owner operator of http://www.sagewisdom.org ), Leander Valdez (who at his infrequent visits to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SalviaD_Alliance has clarified misconceptions about oral activity ) & equally I thank ChristoSphere aka Sphere (whose extractions are state of the art and have helped support the whole issue of standardized product development and a proliferation of good suppliers http://tinyurl.com/6o3ex ). I am grateful to each of these 3 for their in depth information, and for bringing this herb and its psychoactive effects to our attention. Others have been very generous and intrepid in their actions supporting personal exploration of this as well (the neat alien guy from Just say Once, Slava Oleshensky and the buyers? club, & D M Turner ? I wish his last bath tub journey had waited ? sorry that we never got to meet)

The statements below are informed personal declarations, most are clear facts to me for which I have not bothered to annotate or to attribute sources save the introductory references above. My personal experience with salvia has been limited, a mere 300 experiences in 2 ? years, which is a higher frequency than the norm, but not outrageous since each experience averages only 5 minutes. Thus I have collected only around 60 hours immersed in salvia space, which is less time than most normal persons in the civilized world spends in a single month at alcohol inebriation. Also I qualify my own pedestrian insights by having been a student of Organic Chemistry, Biochemistry and Neurobiology in the 1970?s.

Salvia Divinorum is a plant with psychoactive properties. Among the known Salvias only Salvia Divinorum really has the active ingredient to be psychoactive ? some people have gone on dramatically about how S.Splendens is so great, but it is not a psychoactive contender, while it is quite pretty to look at.

The only psychoactive Ingredient of Salvia D. seems to be Salvinorin?A (other salvinorins exist but are not proven to be psychoactive, and other chemicals in the plant have not actually been proven to augment the action of salvinorin in any way). Standardized extracts using ChristoSphere?s method or something similar will have only true active ingredient added to plain leaf or if the buyer is lucky to de-fatted leaf (which burns cleaner and smokes more gently). Non-standardized or Crude extract can be equally strong but will produce a heavier smoke and tarry dark tinctures. Possibly the vendors of Crude extracted leaf have worked to ehance a mystique about the additional content in the crude extractions, but IMO these impurities do not really add anything positive except maybe flavors.

Salvinorin?A is a waxy crystalline solid that is highly soluble in Acetone and DMSO and somewhat soluble in alcohol, but it is not very soluble in naphtha or water and some other non-polar oils or fats are not good solvents for it either, see http://tinyurl.com/6o3ex to evaluate how using acetone in sequence with naphtha makes very pure extractions from leaf possible.

A gram of dry SD leaf has ~2.5 mg of salvinorin in it, all of it is usually clumped in tiny trichomes mostly on the bottoms of the leaf material but also some are on the stems ? these microscopic bunchy trichomes may represent botanic respiratory excretion or some other accidental formation ? they are pretty unique. The formation of these deposits of the waxy material explains why, in part, well chewed leaf has more effects than unchewed leaf, see below, and why sublingual absorption of plain leaf always fails ? i.e. just holding a leaf under the tongue, as if it were a blotter of lsd (never works).

Biologically active binding sites, which may one day help explain the action of Salvinorin in humans, are the brain tissue?s Kappa-opioid receptors ? KOR ? we do not know what they do in the brain, but KOR may modulate performance of middle brain structures or ganglia, which in turn channel afferent neurons to the cortex using pulsed signals. In particular, these ganglia may be involved in controlling the duration of series of fading pulses to the cortex to enhance memory fixation and recall. The chemical binding tests have been in vitro, vs. in vivo. No work has been done to explain the steep ramp of strong threshold effects and the short duration of these effects, as well as the long smooth ramp of afterglow.

Absorption of Salvinorin (mostly by mucosa) in traditional use has been reported to include oral consumption of quid, oral consumption of pulverized drinks, and smoking (pipiltzintzintli ?which was most likely the Aztec name for Salvia Divinorum - was recorded by the Spaniard Fray Agust?n de Vetancurt in 1698 to have been smoked by Aztecs ? which contradicts what surviving Mazatecs have told more recent researchers. The Mazatecs may not be aware of the smoking or may have been hiding it from the gringos who are investigating their culture). Poultices were also used.

Recently we have added tricks of absorption with alcohol based elixir?s, standardized, and crude extracts, and teas or boiled infusions (and re-extracted the dried leaves afterwards), and DMSO based elixirs have been tested very effectively too (by OTT and myself, and some web colleagues who shall remain unidentified).

Smoking is the most effective and most expedient method of getting the effects, that I have explored. [it is possible that an intravenous or intramuscular injection of non-lethal DMSO containing as little as 100mics or even less of salvinorin would be efficient, but I have not tested this, and am disinclined to any use of needles with powerful psychedelic experiences ? other solvents would not be as effective or as benign to body function]. Oral intake can require 20 times as much material (compared to smoking) to produce similar effects whether it is by quid, elixir, drinks or teas. Oral intake which you swallow with lots of fluid act more quickly than chewing fresh or reconstituted quid leaves especially if attempting not to swallow.

Sublingual ?holding unchewed leaf or chemically prepared blotter under the tongue ? is not effective.
Unchewed leaf has no effect which is not surprising since the waxy crystalline material will not break down or dissolve quickly in the body?s non-polar body fats or in plasmas, it will not diffuse from the leaf or passively enter body tissue.

To explain the different absorptions consider that tiny particles which can lodge on cellular membranes of mucosa will be slowly absorbed. The more surface area exposed, the faster overall absorption will take place, and the smaller the waxy particles are, the faster they will get through the membranes of the mucosa. So the fastest route involves molecular salvinorin vapor or liquid which will absorb instantly when it contacts such the bronchial cell membranes as alveoli in the lungs.

While the fastest absorption involves the smallest particles across the largest surface (smoked salvia vapor over lungs) the slowest is to try to swallow a large particle solid pill - which actually does not work psycho actively at all since it never allows enough salvinorin to be absorbed quickly enough - i.e. the big particle just sits in one spot. Some have erroneously conjectured that stomach acid breaks down salvinorin, but delayed absorption explains all of the reduction of effects via oral intake.

In the middle of the efficiencies there is the munching of leaves, which if done well grinds the particles finely, some can be absorbed at oral mucosa and some are absorbed as they trickle down the throat.

A bit faster action is noticed with Tea, since it flushes the tiny particles through the gut, one gets effects nearly as fast as smoking if one drinks quickly an infusion with small salvinorin particles.

Unfortunately only about 20% of active ingredient gets into the water as a suspension, so tea seems wasteful if the leaves are not extracted after use.

Differences between oral, pharyngeal, esophageal, peptic, duodenal, and bronchial mucosa, are mostly explained by the absorption potential of these surfaces, and how much of these surfaces are exposed to salvinorin containing materials.


compare the impact of quantity of salvinorin-A:

compare duration of each aspect of effect:
onset----30 secs-----10mins------5mins
rampup---30 secs------2mins------2mins
peak----3-6 mins-----20 mins-----20mins
rampdown--1 min------20mins------20mins
sloppy---60 mins-----120mins----120mins

total less than
---------90 mins------3hours-----3hours

DMSO (an industrial cleaning solvent) which is known medically as a carrier vehicle that assists absorption of drugs to penetrate the skin is a good solvent for salvinorin, only acetone seems to be better.

DMSO can be used for elixirs but usually commercial elixirs are made with alcohol. Acetone burns too much on the oral tissues. Still Alcohol burns way more than DMSO, so if you are in the USA and are interested in an alternative for tinctures do look into DMSO, it will be much more potent than alcohol based elixirs as it is a more powerful solvent and seems to have several good effects on the body. Unfortunately DMSO gives the user have a garlicky or seafood smell, and it is not legal for oral use in CANADA. It is classified as HAZMAT for transport since it is flammable. DMSO can give the most potent elixirs, but it does not seem to hasten absorption as one might suppose.

Some have suggested that other fats and chlorophyll too are concertive to the absorption but this has not proven, Non-standardized extracts are only imagined to be fuller spectrum while they really are just providing a heavier more polluting if flavorful smoke.

What is all the fuss about Butane Torch lighters? Well, more flame per second means more igniting ability and more heat.

Apparently if you try to vaporize pure salvinorin off of a metal or glass plate, you do need the heat of a torch, but if you adjust the micro environment such that the pressure is lowered, then the Boiling Point of the salvinorin is lowered ? this is what happens when smoking a pipe, so, for a pipe, which the person is sucking on one end (lowering pressure ? creating ?draw?), a torch is not required to achieve Boiling Point, or vaporization of Salvinorin-A. This is akin to the phenomenon of water boiling at lower temperatures at higher altitudes, where air pressure is lower.

However to get effects from plain leaf, at least 1/5th of a gram has to be consumed quickly, and for this a torch can help as more will be ignited faster. Personally I advise against this approach since such an amount of heat is damaging to lung tissue. Some salvianauts swear by their torches, and enjoy using them, and have started to use long-tubed pipes and water pipes, this I also do not recommend since up to half the active material condenses on the long cooled surfaces of the pipes. If you do use a torch, then I think it is more healthy for your lungs to have a long stemmed pipe or water pipe or bong, and the gravity bong will also work with the torch. Using the torch and these big pipes will involve some condensation, so it becomes impossible to calibrate dosage, except to say ?this is how much I need with this pipe and this lighter?.

Afterglow ? reported by most users seems to last from 2 to 5 days. Personally I find more afterglow from oral intake than smoked intake, and I think it is a sub threshold effect due to slow release of salvinorin from stickier or fatty tissues in the body. For me it is a feeling of healthfulness, as I am over 50, it is a bit of a fountain of youth kind of thing. Most report it as an Antidepressant kind of effect which is consistent IMO with the lesser effects of all psychedelics.

The following summarizes my personal understanding of a single effect from Salvia Divinorum that can be amplified creating a multitude of results through the whole range of effects discussed elsewhere at length as the S-A-L-V-I-A scale.

Associative thought and memory comprise a study that goes well beyond this overview of Salvia Divinorum, but the salvianaut and indeed all psychonauts will do well to examine the nature of memory and thoughts, as much of the salvia space effect is the interplay of energy in this arena. When experience occurs it is mentally resonant. Things that are resonant together become fixable as memory (engrams), and when similar elements of new experiences arise, stored engrams emerge (by resonance) and memory is said to surface. The mind tolerates tremendous traffic of associative memory recall and engram creation.

Sequences of personality traits and skills are initiated using the same associative process and are learned by engram formation enhanced by repetition and practice.

Resonance is key to all the above, resonance of incoming sensory information and resonance of recalled patterns, all having the nature of signal excitation and gradually fading resonance.

IMO, the psychedelic effect is produced by extending the fading resonance beyond the usual duration (~ 200 milliseconds) to ten and sometimes a hundred times as long.

The delay of fading of mental content supports mental efforts to smooth surfaces, to blend features, and to mix memory and signals of varying types. Visual trails are a common effect, of persistence in vision (slower fading of frames of visual input), and with salvia Gravity is an assumed effect, though it is really persistence of proprioception or body feeling.

One can study this phenomenon (delayed fading of signals) and how it can create the myriad of sensory and psychological phenomena. The extra people in the room, the room being different, being inside of the wall, the Little people, the farms and scenery, Dimensions, and even D?j? vu, can all be seen to be natural occurrences when fading of sensations and memories permit combinations that are not normally observed.

Many visual phenomena are enhancements of previsual sensory data, less processed than our usual ?seamless? visual panorama, but very primal and natural in the brain.

Merging with objects is an amazing and wonderful basic event ? a kind of synaesthesia due to persistence of experiences, but more too, as the experience of inside and outside overlap and persist, cause and effect are sustained and persisted together as one thing mentally, Oneness is eminently comprehensible, even expected.

The lore of salvia is full of anecdotes about the Lady, but also the guy, the little Mexican fellows, family members, etc., which in my opinion are all naturally emergent when a strong effect starts: when the salvianaut turns his head and still sees the view behind him and beside him, when each thought and memory that arises and is sustained in a vast dimensional array or book of life type series of pages, all resonant and persistent and vibrantly alive beyond the expected duration of fleeting glances, and thoughts.

There has been some work (sorry, I kept no references) suggesting that every 3 seconds a self mask is flushed and replaced by a subsequent one (often similar ? usually related). Our normal personality is expressed by series of such routines or masks.

As the chain of thought and chain of masks of personality proceed, we play out our mental expressions with the same sense of merged oneness. Each mental mask or expression is shaped to appeal to a type of person, and, in Salvia space, that person is there as soon as the expression is made. The person may be unseen or seen, usually a kind of constant presence is sensed, the person sensed is most akin to an archetype of the person. I have mostly felt such presences as brothers, or as mothers or wives, and sometimes children, or neighbors, as if my personality is most geared up to address these archetypes.

Often the room fills with unseen presences which may well be the persistence of the other side of the masks played out by personality sequences.

With regard to antidepressant effects from Salvia and other psychedelics, I suggest the analogy of fences. Regular associative thought which runs repeatedly is most prone to running repeatedly again, like the creation of ruts and ditches through fields by usage of any path, or like the fencing in of those pathways.

When the fading resonance of thoughts or images or sensations is prolonged even just a bit (by Salvia), alternate routes can be selected more easily. In this way I like to say, that Salvia lowers fences, you can still easily perform the tasks, and think the thoughts, you are still you, but the habit engine is just a bit less domineering, useful little escape routes are more accessible. Both obsessive behavior and depressive behavior are served by such lowering of fences.

Many report the onset of Fear when using Salvia to Level 5 or more. Fear comes from the immersion into the unfamiliar, or from painful sensations, or from apprehension of bizarre meanings, and it builds by the entheogen extension of fadeout, permitting reactions to arise from secondary and tertiary instances of apprehensions. Since the entheogen enhances persistence, getting into a fear jag is easy. Getting out involves good insight into the workings of associative mentation.

All movement in the mind is associative, or towards. To like something we naturally move towards it, but to fear or hate something that is in the mind, even as we try to move away, we come closer instead, just like Alice Through the Looking Glass.

All responses seem to affirm and intensify mental connections and so resistance seems to build the associations to facilitate future recall. Letting go is the only recourse. Letting go is a different modality than moving away from or moving towards. Letting go is the essence of mental fluidity. Setting up a cascade of letting go when entheogenized is a good goal in handling fear experiences. Understanding the naturalness of entheogen based mental persistence enhancement is important in minimizing impact and the cascade of fear type responses.

Controlling effects via Set and Setting is one thing many have asked about. The secret to this is just to control your life, i.e. to be dignified and well meaning, and to learn to relax and let go. The short little salvia journeys are expressions of your inner self in context. Be good and good luck.

Edited by redgreenvines (04/28/05 05:43 AM)

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4098724 - 04/26/05 02:03 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

hmm... thats alot of info to go through...\

Good, but long!

thanks  :mushroom2:'s for ya

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Edited by Grovesk8ter (04/26/05 02:04 PM)

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4098746 - 04/26/05 02:09 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent post. Lots of good info in there!
Great Job!

No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: mecreateme]
    #4099248 - 04/26/05 04:11 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Wow, excellent post! It's good to know someone seems to have learned something from this plant. I never seem to, though i'm always left with such a story...:grin::strokebeard::stoned:

Will all the big boomers please unveil, please unveil, please unveil.

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: Hrethic]
    #4100860 - 04/27/05 12:33 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Awsome read! Thanks alot for sharing! I look forward to reading more of your work and views concerning salvia and the salvia experience.

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: OrangeVWCamper]
    #4100914 - 04/27/05 12:59 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks a lot for that. You answered a question I was going to post about splendens. Let me just ask this straight out to anybody. Besides problems that could arise from not having a sitter what do you think is the most dangerous thing about this drug? As far as psychological damage---what's the worst case scenario?

Space is the Place

Edited by TheFakeSunRa (04/27/05 01:00 AM)

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #4101079 - 04/27/05 01:58 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Well I'm not an expert, but if I've ever felt like my psyche could just *snap* and cross over into madness, it was on Salvia. I've come to grips with it slightly, but to me Salvia can be ruthlessly terrifying in it's ability to just rip apart and distort your reality to such a...physical level. It's not just a mental trip. It affects your body in a way that is impossible to explain but is undeniable if you smoke it right.

Be careful, Salvia is the farthest thing from a joke that there is.


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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: OrangeVWCamper]
    #4101252 - 04/27/05 02:32 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

people are very resiliant, but the worst cases emerge when they want to be sick, or want to be messed up, and then they follow through with their plans. messy.

Often they may mean to hurt someone else and chose to do it by taking themselves hostage, threatening and then following through.

Worst Case? - Why even ask? If that becomes the area of interest, you can go there at mind speed. A better kind of interest is Best Case or even better, the middle way.

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SALVIA Scale and prolongation of sensory fadeout [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4101386 - 04/27/05 03:08 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I am not sure why i left it out, except that the post is already humongous and I hate long posts, but also the SALVIA scale and prolongation of sensory fadeout pertains to other entheogens as well and the main post here is something I have tried to make just Salvia oriented.

The SALVIA Experiential Rating Scale is as follows (- adapted/shortened from http://www.sagewisdom.org/usersguide.html -)

Level - 1 "S" stands for SUBTLE effects. A feeling that "something" is happening, although it is difficulty to say just what. ...
Level - 2 "A" stands for ALTERED perception. Colors and textures are more pronounced. Appreciation of music may be enhanced. ...
Level - 3 "L" stands for LIGHT visionary state. Closed-eye visuals (clear imagery with eyes closed: fractal patterns, vine-like and geometric patterns, visions of objects and designs). ...
Level - 4 "V" stands for VIVID visionary state. Complex three-dimensional realistic appearing scenes occur. Sometimes voices may be heard. ...
Level - 5 "I" stands for IMMATERIAL existence. At this level one may no longer be aware of having a body. ...
Level - 6 "A" stands for AMNESIC effects. At this stage, either consciousness is lost, or at least one is unable to later recall what one had experienced. ...

As I indicate above and have also nearly wherever I post anything about entheogens, it is clear to me that the main psychedellic effect is prolonged fadeout of sensory activity, but the meaning of that is not too clear immediately to most people:

Sensory activity for this consideration means mental resonance from:
Vision, Hearing, Touch, Taste, Smell, Memory, and Timing.

Normally all sensory activity combines into a single Gestalt or arising Frame, and as it fades away another arises, naturally.

You could say that in natural consciousness there is always two Frames, one arising and at least one passing away.

with entheogen the frames fade more slowly, such that at
Level - 1 "S" 4 frames are stacked, 3 fading and one arising
Level - 2 "A" 8 frames are stacked, 7 fading and one arising
Level - 3 "L" 16 frames are stacked, 15 fading and one arising
Level - 4 "V" 32 frames are stacked, 31 fading and one arising
Level - 5 "I" 64 frames are stacked, 63 fading and one arising
Level - 6 "A" 128 frames are stacked, 127 fading and one arising

No I did not count them, but you may notice that frame stacking and the presence of multiple dimensions, such as is perceptible at levels 3 and 4 and 5 has a countable nature.

Early on I found that only a few vines showed up in level 3 experiences and many showed in level 4 and in level 5 I was overcome.
In level 6 there is far too much going on to even detect the arising moment of sensation.

I think the vines are visual artifacts of edge detection and smoothing or re-connection of parts. The smoothing gives things a kind of liquidity, or solidity from fragmentary visual data. The elongations may be some feedback on the smoothing; so presto from a few dots there are vines; add frames, more vines, and longer ones.


In the 3 second mask of self scenario, there are about 15 or 16 arising sensory frames, so at level 3 there is enough stacking to hold a complete mask of another being, i.e. to sense one more person in the room, and at level 4, it would seem that 2 other completely formed other personalities may be sensed at any moment. Level 5 would admit about 4 others.

Only recently Have I come to understand that the other beings are not just the shadows of self, but also the other sides of the mask construct. That is to say that if a personality mask expression were delveloped to be used especially for a type of family member, that member (type) would seem to be there at that moment.

This is consistent with the combinations of both sides of all issues seeming to be co-incident, the preponderance of experiences with a membrane or sense of unity, merged continuities etc.

Normally thought streams are also sequences of personality masks, even though we are experiencing them mainly for the words and fabrics of logic that are woven by the phrases carried with the masks.

(I have recently written something in S&P about cadence, rhythm, and how it plays a huge part in this (- the seventh sense http://tinyurl.com/bb2f9 -). there I was pointing at the cerebellum for it's function as a multitimer, rhythm generator sense organ that is so useful in this matrix of wave form synchronization)

Edited by redgreenvines (05/03/05 05:12 AM)

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4101396 - 04/27/05 03:13 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks Fred.

Vines, I think considering the worst possible outcome is an important part of making well informed decisions. I'm not on a kamikaze path to destruction or anything like that. It's just the more I read on salvia the more I think the dangers are unknown. I get the impression from the forums on here that a lot of people frown on discussing the downsides of certain drugs. I'm aware of the best cases and the middle way. I've found a lot of that on here and other sites. I want to get impartial opinions on the dangers from people who are, like me, basically pro-recreational drug use. One problem, I think is that the typical tripper wants to pretend that everything is wine and roses and the DEA types just try to play up the dangers to no end. If someone without an ax to grind says to watch out, like Fred did, I take that seriously.

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #4101456 - 04/27/05 03:32 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

you have valid points to make on a rational platform. To make informed decisions you do look at both sides of issues related to the matter.

so far, salvia has no physical downside (IMO), and I think none is likely. Mentally, the whole SALVIA scale of experience is possible, and dosage control is not easy, though never physically damaging.

IMO there are no new things going to emerge that were not already present, but new combinations will appear or may emerge from smearing up to 50 mind moments together, and that whole thing could take time to recover from or to get used to.

as far as cognitive liberty goes, we begin to discuss the non-rational platforms. so, I took your point intitially as a question for the salvianaut, i.e. in salvia space, look at where you want to go. this is not rational this is the looking glass world.

In the rational world, of course you can look at it squarely, it is about psychedellic experience, and how much do you dare to add to any particular individual's productive life. Obviously some will thrive with it and truly may be less without it, and others will gain no benefit of venturing into non rational spaces, and may feed complexes with the results in a negative way.

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4105863 - 04/28/05 05:29 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Way to go RedGreenVines! One of the best threads on Salvia there is!

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: Asante]
    #4106636 - 04/28/05 01:09 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

That is very interesting, Red.

So do you say there are no entities, no spirits, only frames? Do you believe we are spiritual beings?

Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: Asante]
    #4106657 - 04/28/05 01:14 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Agreed, good work :thumbup:.


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
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Re: Salvia Facts and Myths [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4107301 - 04/28/05 04:26 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)


Psiledehysp said:
That is very interesting, Red.

So do you say there are no entities, no spirits, only frames? Do you believe we are spiritual beings?

Well those frames amount only to ~200ms long gestalts of sensation and expression; AND the masks (composed of ~15 or more of these frames generally last ~3 seconds), the masks are attitude expression sequences which we regard as the self, but the masks are tuned to certain audiences. You could get timing on the events and see how things match up. detecting shifts and counting entities is important to that study.

I think the magic audiences usually resolve out from the whole smoothing and blending processing thing on salvia - so we seem to experience entities that our expressions are especially tuned for.

But in this way I do not intend to deny the spirituality of our selves and the possibility that we can see angels etc.

To the question whether they emanate from outside or inside, it seems the answer that I see, seems to be going a bit more in favor of the inside, but clearly one is an expression of the other.

You run into all kinds of nice people who play a mean game by engaging with these "external" constructs continually. To me it seems they are living through proxy?

I am still learning

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lady salvia scorned again [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4126557 - 05/03/05 05:26 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

a recent posting with "lady salvia" conspicuously in the title expresses a person's dissappointment with the effect as not markedly spiritual.

personally I think of most references to lady salvia as references to a construct within the writer/speaker's mind.
I think that "she" can be a functional myth, a loving phantasm which completes someone's humble attitude.

Most would not consider that they are the script writer as well as the audience for such a manifestation

I find it funny that even when the whole dance with this holy phantom is completely out on the table, people will squirm about their attitudes, as if still negotiating proof of magic from a ghost they are challenging, invoking, and dissing all simultaneously.

it is a guilty dance of conflicting attitudes, and to see it is marvellously spiritual but not as supposed perhaps ( more goofy than mickey mouse land ).

IMO it is easier not to suppose entities as separate from one's inner movements. easier if you find them (and work with them) as emanations of self.

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Re: lady salvia scorned again [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4127263 - 05/03/05 12:02 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Great post. Yes, sagewisdom is great.

One problem is your area about chewing and quids. Quids work very well. It is true that the trip is slightly different, but they work well if you have a good recipe. Use chamomile and ginger to help...those plants work well with Salvia to help her come to you.

Quidding is a difficult art to master, it is true, but I have had a couple of decent experiences, and I know some people that quid exclusively with much success. After all, I believe that quidding was the traditional method used for this plant by the Oaxacans.

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Re: lady salvia scorned again [Re: myndreach]
    #4134200 - 05/04/05 08:36 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Is it true that smoking salvia out of a water bong will decrease its effectiveness?

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Re: lady salvia scorned again [Re: Pirate_Patrick]
    #4134220 - 05/04/05 08:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Well it is true as far as I know that the smoke diffuses some of the salvinorin-A content...however due to the water cooling I suppose you could take a larger hit, so it balances out I suppose.

In my personal experience, I use much smaller amounts and have more intense visions with a standard pipe as apposed to a bong.

Edited by myndreach (05/04/05 08:41 PM)

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Re: lady salvia scorned again [Re: myndreach]
    #5378922 - 03/08/06 09:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I would say also that a bong would be unnecessary, as the amount needed, in my personal experience, is rarely more than one small bowl. Actually, a friend and I smoked some last weekend, and afterwards reflected on the "reverse tolerance" it seems to build - I need far less now to go farther than I ever did in my initial experiences. Definitely one of the most unique psychoactives available.

happy bear eats the family.

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